Hamas has indicated it is currently unable to identify and track down 40 Israeli hostages needed for the first phase of a ceasefire deal, according to an Israeli official and a source familiar with the discussions, raising fears that more hostages may be dead than are publicly known.
  • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
    8314·
    7 months ago

    Article is way better than the headline…

    The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons.

    Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.

    CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

    Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

    Most hostages are combatants, and that doesn’t meet the details for this requirement

    The majority of the almost 100 hostages who remain alive are believed to be male IDF soldiers or men of military reserve age.

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2726·
        7 months ago

        So…

        Hamas gets hostages returned that are women, children, and elderly, all noncombatants.

        They get them back into Gaza where there’s no food and no zones safe from Israeli attacks…

        And Israeli gets back some of their boots on the ground war criminals so they can go right back to genocide?

        If you were trying to be sarcastic use a “/s”, otherwise people will think that was a serious comment.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
            615·
            7 months ago

            I was quoting the article

            And I was explaining how combatants and noncombatants are different…

            One are victims of genocide, and the others are literally actively committing a genocide.

          • fukhueson@lemmy.worldEnglish
            23·
            7 months ago

            Can you please cite in your article the relevant section that supports:

            frequently to death

            Because I was not able to find such a statement, and I’m trying to parse editorialization from fact on this very serious subject.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldEnglish
              42·
              7 months ago

              Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests

              Since 7 October, according to the Israeli authorities, four Palestinian detainees have died in Israeli detention facilities in circumstances that have not yet been impartially investigated. Two of the four are workers from the occupied Gaza Strip, held incommunicado by the Israeli army in military detention centres, whose deaths were only made public by the army after an inquiry by Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

              • fukhueson@lemmy.worldEnglish
                23·
                7 months ago

                This similarly does not support your original assertion, from your original article:

                “This ends in complications and sometimes even in the patient’s death,” the doctor wrote, Haaretz reported.

                Is there a reason you choose to embellish (and directly substitute words in the article for your own personal opinion) instead of accurately convey what the article says?

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  32·
                  7 months ago

                  Me: israel tortures prisoners to death

                  You: no israel tortures prisoners to death

                  ???

                  • fukhueson@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    24·
                    7 months ago

                    This is flagrantly misrepresenting what this discussion is about as I’ve directly quoted. This is not conducive to informative discussion, and a disservice to this sub.

    • Rapidcreek@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
      2540·
      7 months ago

      Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

      Totally untrue

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2610·
        7 months ago

        Where are Hamas getting them?

        Like, do you think this is an actual war where both sides attack each other’s territories?

        Seriously, at what point in the last six months would Hamas have captured non combatants?

        • Stovetop@lemmy.worldEnglish
          205·
          7 months ago

          I am not here to give Israel a W, but Hamas still has a number of civilian captives from the original October 7 attack. Just not as many surviving as was assumed.

          According to Israel’s own figures, there are 90 or so living hostages and 30 or so bodies still held by Hamas IIRC. Apparently most of the 90 survivors are non-civilians, based on what Hamas is saying, but some of them still are.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
            247·
            7 months ago

            According to Israel’s own figures,

            But not according to anyone else’s…

            Israel has been flattening the entire area, they can’t keep track of how many they kill, regardless of what country they’re from.

            But the article OP linked even says there aren’t 40 noncombatants left…

            CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

            I’m not sure what you’re not understanding about this.

            Or why you’re listening to Israel still

            • Stovetop@lemmy.worldEnglish
              83·
              7 months ago

              But the article OP linked even says there aren’t 40 noncombatants left…

              Right, I acknowledged that. It’s just that no one knows who specifically is counted in the alive vs dead hostage statistics. It wouldn’t surprise me if Israel purposefully set a number of civilians that they knew had likely already died, knowing that Hamas would not be able to comply with the request, to justify continuing the conflict.

            • Stovetop@lemmy.worldEnglish
              94·
              7 months ago

              I would say take it with a grain of salt, but there’s enough international scrutiny that I would say the list of missing is probably reliable enough. People in Israel are still protesting the Israeli government about that very frequently. Not everyone missing from October 7th has been returned, alive or dead. Many probably buried beneath rubble from IDF attacks, to be honest, since several were already confirmed killed by “friendly” fire.

              Edit: to add, it is worth noting that Hamas is not the only group that participated in Oct 7 and took hostages. There are likely other hostages that they cannot account for because they were taken by other groups.

          • SkyezOpen@lemmy.worldEnglish
            218·
            7 months ago

            And they’ve been repeatedly bombed for the past several months, try to keep up.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish
            2113·
            7 months ago

            Try to keepup.

            I have…

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli–Palestinian_prisoner_exchange

            Again, your own article says CNN knows there aren’t 40 hostages left that aren’t noncombatants.

            Israel keeps taking civilians hostage, so they have enough.

            Since 10/7 the only Israelis Hamas interacts with are combatants. They literally don’t have enough hostages left for this deal, which is likely how the deal arrived at that number.

            It’s something that literally is impossible to comply with, and Israel gets to blame Hamas.

            This ain’t complicated bub. Your own source agrees with me.

            You should read it

        • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
          63·
          7 months ago

          You only addressed half the statement. They are not saying that Israel doesn’t take civilian hostages. They are questioning the claim that Hamas doesn’t take civilian hostages. Follow the thread please.

          • aleph@lemm.eeEnglish
            64·
            7 months ago

            Is there any evidence that Hamas has taken new hostages since October 7th? Because AFAIK there isn’t.

            • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
              73·
              7 months ago

              A temporal attribute has not been included in this statement:

              Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

              But you have added a temporal qualifier:

              taken new hostages since October 7th

              I think maybe that’s where the disconnect is? I don’t know. I don’t know who or what you’re arguing against.

              • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                54·
                7 months ago

                No you are changing the statement yourself. The statement is

                Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

                Israel is widely kidnapping mostly innocent civilians whereas Hamas very much targeted military for kidnapping.

                This is as obvious as the lower than 2/3 civilian casualty rate for Hamas whereas israel has a far higher civilian casualty rate.

                • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  33·
                  7 months ago

                  Sources? Do I even want your sources at this point…last time I asked for evidence you gave me a verbal statement by the prime minister and that was good enough in your book. You really don’t need much convincing when the evidence aligns with your bias, do you?

                  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    34·
                    7 months ago

                    Last time you got a source you denied reality and pretended that “no that doesn’t count”. I’m not sure why you are bringing this up it only makes you look bad.

                    Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths

                    The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

              • aleph@lemm.eeEnglish
                44·
                7 months ago

                The temporal qualifier is inherent in the grammar of the statement. Perhaps you didn’t notice it?

                In English, the present perfect continuous has/hasn’t been taking implies a frequent and repeated action since a fixed time in the past - in this case, presumably, the start of the current conflict until now.

                Since Hamas only took civilian hostages on one occasion, i.e. October 7th, and not again since, it is not true to say that Hamas “has been taking hostages”. They took hostages. Once.

                Israel, on the other hand, have been taking Palestinian civilians captive, repeatedly, since October 7th. That’s the difference.

                • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  32·
                  7 months ago

                  You’re inferring the start point for the perfect continuous and assigning Oct 7; I’m assigning the start point to be the overall conflict in a broader context. I’m being charitable. I might be wrong, but I can’t read OPs mind so I’m being charitable.

                  • aleph@lemm.eeEnglish
                    31·
                    7 months ago

                    In that case, they would have used the present simple, “Hamas don’t take hostages”, but they didn’t.

                    I think you simply misunderstood the original statement.