I’m making this request on behalf of a community I’m part of, which has some fairly specific requirements that we’re struggling to fill. Basically, we’re an art and writing group that makes extensive use of building our own old-school webpages (almost exclusively HTML, some of us use some CSS as well). This group has been running for over 25 years (late 90s), and back in the old days our website building needs were met by Frontpage, Dreamweaver, and the like. Most of these are gone now, obviously, and we’ve had trouble finding a more modern equivalent that does what we want.
We have experimented with CMS options, but had various issues arising from this - lack of customisation/design flexibility (each individual page we create often has a completely unique design based on the content, whereas most CMS is focused on creating a cohesive design template for a whole site), security problems (especially WordPress), being locked into that CMS and unable to export to a different one or plain HTML, etc.
What we need:
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WYSIWYG interface - although most of us know basic HTML and some CSS, we’re not coders and primarily work visually. We are not aiming for professional-looking websites to sell products, and there are no databases or scripts to worry about. The ability to be able to pick colours, layouts, etc, and then write text and add images is what we’re after.
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Downloadable - we need actual software that we can run locally on our own computers. We all have our own webhosting with FTP access, so we just want to be able to create the HTML files and not be tied into a particular host or platform. If there’s a web-based option that will allow us to simply create a page and then download the final result as a usable HTML file that we can upload to our own hosting, then that option will be considered.
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Easy to set up - tech knowledge varies in the group, so something with an easy installation is needed. I found a couple of options that exist only as Github repositories, and the explanations of how to get them working went right over our heads.
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Free - we’re all poor, starving artists. That said, we’d consider a paid-for option if it was low cost (<£15/$20 per licence), but we’re not in a position to drop £100 each on software.
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Will consider CMS options if it allows each page to be individually and uniquely designed, and does not lock you into using only that CMS - easy export to plain HTML/CSS would be a requirement. With a 25-year old community that has outlived a number of platforms and hosts, we’re wary of anything that tries to lock us into a specific platform. The CMS would nevertheless need to be relatively easy to install on webhosting, due to the aforementioned varying degrees of tech knowledge. Knowledge of Javascript, PHP, etc is extremely limited.
In summary, we’re maintaining a hobby community started in the late 90s when we were teenagers, and we’re looking for FOSS options that replace the Frontpage and Dreamweaver type software we used back then.
Thanks! :)
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Ugh, I thought there’d be more but when I look up FLOSS alternatives to Dreamweaver most are discontinued or misses the mark. At a glance at the ones remaining, maybe Silex comes closest?
It looks like that has a bunch of git and jamstack features that go beyond making simple, individual HTML pages but hopefully Silex is still “dumb” enough to also make those.
These days it seems you need a static site generator just to make very basic sites, and I’m also looking for a simple and easy way to chuck quick things online without some advanced framework to compile pages. I’m still eyeing PicoCMS as a very basic PHP engine that will simply parse a bunch of Markdown files into a website and update it when a new file is uploaded… I think it’s possible to write individual CSS for pages in that.
Otherwise, maybe your collective needs to consider something like neocities or even your own tilde site 🙂
It’s kind of bleak. The web was supposed to be for everybody. I hadn’t realized that in the last two decades we had lost the ability for neophytes to chug out HTML pages from desktop in a visual manner and upload them to a server for the world to see. Only non dead software I found that came close was Pinegrow, but it’s proprietary.
Oh, it’s bleak on so many levels. Consider how few who own their web presence anymore, even small to medium companies like my local pizzaria are only on social media.
And it’s not that everything needs to be basic HTML and CSS imo. I honestly think blogs were great, and Wordpress too for at least its first few major versions. It should just be so much more accessible to make and host your own site than it is to ignore Meta’s terms and conditions and sign up for f——ng Facebook.
Yep, it’s really disappointing that most of the options listed as alternatives to Dreamweaver and Frontpage are either discontinued, or lack a visual interface, or are web-based and attached to a specific hosting provider. We’ve actually been looking for the right software for over three years now. Some of the discontinued ones are still accessible and mostly working, but they have bugs that are obviously never going to be fixed.
We do have one or two people using Neocities, as that’s what replaced Geocities - but there’s an understandable reluctance to use free hosting services. We lost quite a lot of content when Geocities was shut down, only some of which we were able to reconstruct. So the majority of us have our own webhosting now - for what we need, the cheapest packages are more than sufficient. It’s kind of depressing how that actually makes it harder - Neocities, Wix, and a bunch of other free hosting options provide page builders, but only if you’re using their hosting. When you have your own hosting, your webhost pushes you to install WordPress and considers their job done at that point.
But thanks for the suggestion of Silex. It’s one I hadn’t encountered in my previous searches, but it looks like it might do what we need. The desktop app and visual interface look promising, so I’m going to play around with it and see if it’ll do what we need. I think PicoCMS is worth investigating further as well - I can install it on a subdomain and poke at it a bit. I’m liking that it’s lightweight and stores everything as text files.
Thank you! :)
Libreoffice has an HTML mode. Seamonkey has a basic graphical editor. Bluefish is a text editor with HTML templates. Useful but not a graphical editor.
Here are a list of Dreameeaver alternatives: https://alternativeto.net/software/adobe-dreamweaver/
Here are Front Page alternatives: https://alternativeto.net/software/microsoft-office---frontpage/
Most of the graphical page layout programs have been discontinued or at least not maintained. BlueGriffon, NVU, and Kompozer were examples. I do not know if they are still usable.
Edit: You might look at Silex. It seems to be the only FOSS graphical editor with much popularity that is still supported. I have not used.
I had already checked the alternativeto lists. Unfortunately most of the options there were missing one or more of the features required, but BlueGriffon, NVU and Kompozer have all been tried, with the lack of maintenance being the major problem - when a bug pops up or there’s a compatibility issue, there’s no hope of fixing it (this is also the reason why we’re struggling to keep using the old versions of Dreamweaver and Frontpage - we can get them to run, but they’re so old that we’re running into compatibility issues).
But LibreOffice and Seamonkey are good ideas, since they’re both still being maintained. Thanks. :)
The FOSS stuff, there is hope. As long as it can be built from source, the bug can be fixed. Some software is easy to build, some is not. The bigger issue is it will not incorporate new features and later standards.
Also the alternative to site is a little premature in declaring things dead. Not all software needs to have continuous updates.
This thread made me a bit sad, and concerned. I didn’t realise the world was losing these tools. Facebook has gobbled up the personal website space, etc.
It makes me want to make a cute, personal homepage now.
Do you feel comfortable sharing some of your pages here?
I’d prefer not to share my pages, as I like to keep things separate (and also some of the older content from 25 years ago has not aged well but I haven’t had chance to fix it all yet). But yeah, it is really sad that we’re losing tools like this, and how few people have any ability to control their online space. Facebook makes everything so impersonal.
You should definitely make a cute, personal homepage. The internet is better for having such spaces on it. :)
I’m going to. I’ve just spent the night trying to find personal art/sketching blogs. Not easy. It’s all pintrest, artstation, etc. Very sad.
Totally understand by the way re your sites. I can code Web pages, so I’m lucky. But I’d love a good dream weaver or similar for Linux. Just for the lazy and fun side of it all.
Have you looked into VSCodium and a HTML Plugin?
Also lots of Node stuff can render static pages on build.
It’s not quite what I’m looking for, but thank you for the suggestion nonetheless. It’s good to have more options to investigate! :)
I don’t really have anything to add, however I will say that this sounds like a fabulous community, and I wish you luck in finding suitable software.
Thank you! :)
@frog
I’m kinda proud I understand all those acronyms without looking them up. Can’t help though sorry.Definitely something to be proud of! :D
Not sure it checks all the boxes but perhaps GrapesJS?
It’s not quite what I’m looking for, but I appreciate the suggestion. I’d rather look at options that turn out to be not quite right than not have any options at all. :)
I don’t know about that thing you are asking about, but I’ve got a JFGIIGEQ FYLQB KIBBIIB, if that’s any help?
I also have a full crate of MPDEWAKEHVHIUCVJTWCJIJ but it’s pretty popular and going fast.
If you give me your mailing address I could send you and envelope of CJSJAAEOPNVY HYRBBOK ZFAYI. IGIUE HIKNJOU. But sshhhhh.
DONT TELL NOBODY!!!
Your encryption seems to be patchy, most of the post came through in plaintext.
Far out. Wait til you see my FANCY text.
No thanks
I am a bit short on MPDEWAKEHVHIUCVJTWCJIJ if you still have any? 😁
Chur bruh.
I’ve put some on a 8” floppy and sent it in the mail.
It’s not downloadable software, but you might check out WordPress if you haven’t recently, it’s open source and free (though you do need to host it somewhere).
It used to have kind of a bad reputation for being a horrible hodgepodge of bad editing UI and random plugins that do things in wildly different ways, but the WordPress team has really stepped up their game in the last few years and it’s actually very nice now as long as you stay away from the commercial plugins. There’s almost always an open source plugin available for anything you’d want to do, but the out of box experience is plenty good for most pages you’d be likely to need.
WordPress has a very nice “block editor” enabled by default these days, which is essentially just their name for a WYSIWYG interface. Use drag and drop to design the pages, and then click a button to see it in a “code editor” that shows the HTML if you’d rather edit that way.
Anyhow, I know it’s not exactly what you asked for, but I thought I’d mention it since you did say you are open to something web based.
We have actually tried WordPress! I think one person is still using it, but the rest of us had various issues with it, whether that was an inability to export to a basic format, or security issues. The last straw for me was when I couldn’t log in for a week because one random file had an exploit that was being bombarded with attacks, and the security plugins did their job and blocked logins, but that also locked me out as well. My feeling is that WordPress is just so widely used that it’s a big target for attacks.
But thanks for the suggestion! :)
Eclipse is a popular IDE that’s super customizable and extensible. They have a huge marketplace of plugins. And swear I remember there being a WYSIWYG editor for it, but now that I’m searching, it seems there might not be anymore.
I definitely understand the pain though.
We have experimented with CMS options, but had various issues arising from this - lack of customisation/design flexibility (each individual page we create often has a completely unique design based on the content
I’m a web dev who got their start back in the 90s. I’m also an enthusiast for classic computers and restoring them. One of the biggest problems is that older web browsers won’t view anything with HTTPS, have no idea how to render modern web languages, and modern browsers make a mess of classic sites (though this is also an effect of much larger screen resolutions). So I was working on a project to try to build sites on the modern web that older browsers could view, using like HTML3, with no CSS nor JS. I had this ambitious idea that maybe there was a way to create a CMS that could build older sites like that. I was trying to use a headless CMS that I could take content from with a modern frontend for a modern experience, and then build a backend that could wrap the content up in 90s-tastic style. And it’s possible if you want just a generic, bland and basic site. But if you want anything that looks like things did then, it’s impossible. Like you mentioned, everything was so bespoke. so often pages then were built largely with images: navigation, layout, styling, etc. Everything was so unique, custom, and specific to the site. It wasn’t like now where everything is based on the exact same grid, or Bootstrap theme, or WP theme.
The sad part is that there were so many WYSIWYG editors back then that you could use, and even web-based ones (Angelfire, Tripod, Geocities, etc) but all that’s gone now. I did find a copy of Dreamweaver 1 and 2 on MacintoshGarden and gave that a spin for a bit on an old PowerMac G4. That was fun, but I can’t remember if they had a Windows version during the 90s. Though as hard as it is to get even 10 year old software to run on Win 10 and 11, that probably wouldn’t work anyway.
Long-winded way to say: the divide between the 90s and now, wrt web tech, is vast. Not sure how close this is to what you’re trying to do, but thought I’d share it.
Yep, the divide between the 90s and now is so huge! Most of our old content does actually work in modern browsers, surprisingly, but we definitely get some weirdness - alignments of various elements just get completely thrown off, for example. As you note, it’s definitely partly due to larger screen resolutions. Where we’re running into problems is basically the older WYSIWYG editors just can’t handle any of the newer web standards properly, so as soon as we try to make things that have… let’s call it the same aesthetic as the late 90s/early 00s, but with adjustments to make it more modern-browser-friendly, the editor can’t render it properly. So I’d been hoping to find a modern editor that knows what the current iterations of HTML and CSS are, but will still let us work visually!
Shockingly, it is possible to get the early 00s versions of Dreamweaver and Frontpage working on Windows 10/11. There’s a couple people in the group with Dreamweaver from back then, and I managed to get the 2003 version of Frontpage working. They just don’t have any clue what to do with CSS that makes, say, navigation easier or the site more adaptive to desktop and mobile screen resolutions. I remember even in the late 00s, Frontpage was struggling with CSS.
I’ve actually tried out the most current version of Dreamweaver, too. I decided to go back to school last year, and the university gives everyone the full Adobe Creative Cloud suite, which includes Dreamweaver 2021. And it does actually do the job it’s supposed to do reasonably well - apart from this bug that just drives me nuts, where it basically just multiplies spaces in the middle of blocks of text and then will not delete them. But obviously even though I have access to this, it’s proprietary software requiring a monthly subscription, so it’s not a viable option for the whole community.
I’d already checked the alternativeto lists prior to posting; sadly all the options either have one or more features missing, or else have been discontinued.
That lists only “free” alternatives, OP asked for open source software
I’m a hopelessly terrible html scripter but even I grew frustrated with WYSIWYG tools like Dreamweaver. You’re probably better off with a text editor and an open browser and just manually refresh the page as you go.
That’s fine for those of us that know (some) HTML and CSS, but not so much for those that don’t know any. Plus there’s also the fact that we just don’t want to spend our time writing code, because that takes time away from the actual purpose of the group, which is art and creative writing. A WYSIWIG editor handles the code for us and lets us focus on the part that’s actually important to our community.
I understand that, I really do. But some stuff just requires you learn a bit to make it work.
I might buy that argument if our community was trying to build commercial websites that need a lot of functionality. But we’re not. It’s literally just a hobby sharing art and writing, for which we need a functional WYSIWIG editor that isn’t locked behind a paywall, doesn’t try to tie us into a particular hosting platform, and which is compatible with the current web standards.
“Just learn to code” is not particularly helpful advice for a community that is trying to balance an enjoyable hobby (not career) with careers and families.
Again, I agree. But basic HTML is barely coding. I’d just avoid CSS. Anyway, I genuinely wish you the best of luck finding a decent application.
