Meh, most of the BEV’s available are big inefficient wallowing SUV’s with hefty price tags regardless of the clean car discount.
I’m hoping some of the Chinese manufacturers will bring affordable sedan or station wagon BEV’s to the market. Lighter, better aerodynamics, more range for the same battery size.
Not interested in hybrids, the worst of both worlds
That seems like a silly worry to me. I would be more concerned about what my own country or a corporation or the USA could do to me than China. Think about it. The USA could charge me with something like copyright violation and boom I get arrested just like that. China accuses me of a crime and the government won’t do shit.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea. You should absolutely be vigilant against your own government as well. But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That’s not a silly worry, it’s a daily occurrence.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea
Did you mean say “foreign entity” or “China”. Because we already give that information to a foreign entity, multiple foreign agencies in fact.
But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That’s not a silly worry, it’s a daily occurrence.
It’s a silly worry for me because I am not a chinese dissident living abroad.
Well that’s up to you. I’m no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you’ll understand if I take it more personally. China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
Well that’s up to you. I’m no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you’ll understand if I take it more personally.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don’t think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
I haven’t heard of people being abducted from Taiwan, but friends were detained while transferring flights in Hong Kong over some China-critical social media posts.
… have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have
Fair but while America is far from squeaky clean, I’ve never avoided traveling via one of their airports for fear of something I said about their president on social media. And if they did I wouldn’t, except in extreme cases, disappear from the face of the earth with my family having no idea what happened to me. China does these things routinely. Even to very prominent members of their own society.
Look if you say “I’m not involved, it’s not my problem” that’s fair enough. But to say there’s no difference between the US (which I fully acknowledge does lots of bad things) and China is missing the plot a bit.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don’t think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
You would be wrong about most of this. The Chinese government has one of the most sophisticated spying networks in the world. Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
I feel like you haven’t been to the US. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn’t out there wiretapping the entire world. Real life isn’t like the CIA movies, mate.
I’m sure they won’t do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don’t have to?
Corporations spy on us too, and this is motivated by profit. The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
I’m sure they won’t do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don’t have to?
You are doing that now though.
The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
Why? Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP? If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
Depends on the topic. I trust NZ government more than the CCP in most things but I fear the NZ government more than I fear the CCP because the NZ government exercises more power over me than the CCP does.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
Why?
Because I don’t want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP?
Yes.
If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
As bad as they are they can not exert any power over me. OTOH both the NZ government and the US government can exert tremendous amount of power over me.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
Now I know you don’t fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
The US government is pretty corrupt. But it is absolutely nothing like the CCP. Does the US government disappear political opponents? Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are ‘paying their dues’ and not becoming too powerful. Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth? Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities? Seriously, they are both bad, but the CCP is much worse.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
What?
Because I don’t want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
🙄
This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
Absolutely, but those are parts which are subject to overseas QA, standards and testing. For example, I have a Toyota. Chinese made parts must meet their strict quality control, must adhere to safety standards, etc.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
We are talking about a country that has things like Melamine laced baby formula quite frequently. How did these things pass regulators and testing? Bribary.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
The cars that are exported here must meet our standards.
I never said anyone else had to listen to me. I said, originally, that I wouldn’t drive a Chinese company.
And I want to be very clear here. I don’t hate China. I greatly distrust the Chinese government, and the culture of bribary, lying, cheating and scamming that has gone along with it.
I also do not hate it because it’s popular to do so online. I have this view because of direct, personal, experience with Chinese companies and the government there.
Simply put, Chinese companies have and will make important stuff out of sub-par materials to make a buck, and lie, cheat and bribe their way to market. And then people die. This is not paranoia, this is something that happens all the time there.
Nio seems to be the one making waves that no one in NZ has heard of as they don’t operate here. They are doing the Tesla promise of swapable batteries for real life, with a network of swap stations. Imagine buying a car and knowing you can in future swap the battery for a longer range one, one with better health, not to mention long range batteries from empty to fully charged in minutes.
The only reason I’ve heard of Nio was because I bought shares in them a couple of years ago. I sold when I doubled my money, which looks like it was a good move considering how low it is now!
That’s awesome! I hadn’t seen that video before. Looks pretty impressive, though I’d be curious for more details about the subscriptions. Do you get charged for use or whether you use it or not?
This is a stupid idea, and there’s a very good reason why nobody but them is doing it.
Both swappable batteries and hydrogen are dead end technologies, at least as far as road vehicles are concerned. The economics of hydrogen will never compare to an EV, the range is only similar, and the charge rates of modern EVs have made the refuel time less significant.
With battery swaps, the logistics and capital required to build a charging station, which any EV can charge at, compared to a battery swap station which only one model of vehicle can use, mean this will never be widespread.
Meanwhile, most EVs will go from 10-80% capacity in about fifteen minutes.
Try and find out the cost per KG for hydrogen, it’s almost impossible. If you lease a hydrogen car, the fuel is included in the lease, and I’ve found it very hard to find a retail price for the stuff, but every price I have seen indicates it’s phenomenally expensive, meaning a hydrogen vehicle is more expensive to run than a petrol vehicle.
Here’s some actual numbers, $200 usd to fill a Mirai, which will give you about 600km of range.
As to the battery swap thing, it took decades, and an EU ultimatum, for everyone to agree on a charging standard, what do you think your chances are of everyone agreeing on a battery design?
The truck companies I’ve seen doing hydrogen are generating the hydrogen themselves with water and electricity. I’m not sure whether it’s financially viable or not, they seem to be doing it for the reduced carbon emmisions.
And yeah, you’re right, a common battery standard will probably only exist if say GM or some group of Japanese car companies uses a standard across all their brands and allows this to be used by others. In other words, chances are probably pretty slim.
PHEVs are the best of both worlds for me living in an apartment with limited charging capacity.
We have two shared charges for PHEVs, they can be used for four hours maximum per day, this means that I can drive in EV mode to and from the shops as well as to my parents house, if I need to go further, I turn on Hybrid mode and it gives me great milage for a long time.
Meh, most of the BEV’s available are big inefficient wallowing SUV’s with hefty price tags regardless of the clean car discount.
I’m hoping some of the Chinese manufacturers will bring affordable sedan or station wagon BEV’s to the market. Lighter, better aerodynamics, more range for the same battery size.
Not interested in hybrids, the worst of both worlds
I just cannot bring myself to trust my life to a Chinese car.
I have done business there. I know what it’s like. It does not fill me with confidence.
Also it’s one thing to be spied on by ad companies (which is bad enough) but quite another to be spied on by an adversarial dictatorship.
Exactly. Same reason I won’t use Chinese brand phones.
That seems like a silly worry to me. I would be more concerned about what my own country or a corporation or the USA could do to me than China. Think about it. The USA could charge me with something like copyright violation and boom I get arrested just like that. China accuses me of a crime and the government won’t do shit.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea. You should absolutely be vigilant against your own government as well. But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That’s not a silly worry, it’s a daily occurrence.
Did you mean say “foreign entity” or “China”. Because we already give that information to a foreign entity, multiple foreign agencies in fact.
It’s a silly worry for me because I am not a chinese dissident living abroad.
Well that’s up to you. I’m no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you’ll understand if I take it more personally. China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don’t think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
I haven’t heard of people being abducted from Taiwan, but friends were detained while transferring flights in Hong Kong over some China-critical social media posts.
Fair but while America is far from squeaky clean, I’ve never avoided traveling via one of their airports for fear of something I said about their president on social media. And if they did I wouldn’t, except in extreme cases, disappear from the face of the earth with my family having no idea what happened to me. China does these things routinely. Even to very prominent members of their own society.
Look if you say “I’m not involved, it’s not my problem” that’s fair enough. But to say there’s no difference between the US (which I fully acknowledge does lots of bad things) and China is missing the plot a bit.
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
You would be wrong about most of this. The Chinese government has one of the most sophisticated spying networks in the world. Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
I feel like you haven’t been to the US. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn’t out there wiretapping the entire world. Real life isn’t like the CIA movies, mate.
I’m sure they won’t do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don’t have to?
Corporations spy on us too, and this is motivated by profit. The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
You are doing that now though.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
Why? Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP? If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
Depends on the topic. I trust NZ government more than the CCP in most things but I fear the NZ government more than I fear the CCP because the NZ government exercises more power over me than the CCP does.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
Because I don’t want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
Yes.
As bad as they are they can not exert any power over me. OTOH both the NZ government and the US government can exert tremendous amount of power over me.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
Now I know you don’t fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
The US government is pretty corrupt. But it is absolutely nothing like the CCP. Does the US government disappear political opponents? Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are ‘paying their dues’ and not becoming too powerful. Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth? Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities? Seriously, they are both bad, but the CCP is much worse.
What?
🙄
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
You probably trust your life to chinese made parts in your current car.
Absolutely, but those are parts which are subject to overseas QA, standards and testing. For example, I have a Toyota. Chinese made parts must meet their strict quality control, must adhere to safety standards, etc.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
We are talking about a country that has things like Melamine laced baby formula quite frequently. How did these things pass regulators and testing? Bribary.
The cars that are exported here must meet our standards.
That’s fine if you’re happy to drive one, I don’t really care. Personally I won’t.
They can say they meet regulations all they won’t, but the number of times corners are cut in China to make a few extra bucks makes me look elsewhere.
This is all not to mention not wanting to support the CCP in any way, and the CCP has fingers in all the large companies in China.
You do you boo. It seems like the rest of the country doesn’t agree with you too much.
But hey you hate China and I guess that’s one badge you can wear with honor.
I never said anyone else had to listen to me. I said, originally, that I wouldn’t drive a Chinese company.
And I want to be very clear here. I don’t hate China. I greatly distrust the Chinese government, and the culture of bribary, lying, cheating and scamming that has gone along with it. I also do not hate it because it’s popular to do so online. I have this view because of direct, personal, experience with Chinese companies and the government there.
Simply put, Chinese companies have and will make important stuff out of sub-par materials to make a buck, and lie, cheat and bribe their way to market. And then people die. This is not paranoia, this is something that happens all the time there.
So you don’t hate china but you hate the chinese government and everybody in china who works for any company that makes any product.
Nio seems to be the one making waves that no one in NZ has heard of as they don’t operate here. They are doing the Tesla promise of swapable batteries for real life, with a network of swap stations. Imagine buying a car and knowing you can in future swap the battery for a longer range one, one with better health, not to mention long range batteries from empty to fully charged in minutes.
The only reason I’ve heard of Nio was because I bought shares in them a couple of years ago. I sold when I doubled my money, which looks like it was a good move considering how low it is now!
Tom Scott made a video where he tested an automatic swap station:
https://youtu.be/hNZy603as5w
He also mentions the company is hemorrhaging money at the moment.
Yeah, that is normal for a VC funded company
That’s awesome! I hadn’t seen that video before. Looks pretty impressive, though I’d be curious for more details about the subscriptions. Do you get charged for use or whether you use it or not?
You lease the battery pack from them, from my understanding, so yes.
This is a stupid idea, and there’s a very good reason why nobody but them is doing it.
Both swappable batteries and hydrogen are dead end technologies, at least as far as road vehicles are concerned. The economics of hydrogen will never compare to an EV, the range is only similar, and the charge rates of modern EVs have made the refuel time less significant.
With battery swaps, the logistics and capital required to build a charging station, which any EV can charge at, compared to a battery swap station which only one model of vehicle can use, mean this will never be widespread.
Meanwhile, most EVs will go from 10-80% capacity in about fifteen minutes.
Hydrogen is already being used in diesel / hydrogen hybrid trucks, but in terms of cars I don’t think the technology is going anywhere fast.
In terms of battery swap, would the simple answer not be to have an open standard that different manufacturers can all use?
I normally see this quoted as 30 mins?
Try and find out the cost per KG for hydrogen, it’s almost impossible. If you lease a hydrogen car, the fuel is included in the lease, and I’ve found it very hard to find a retail price for the stuff, but every price I have seen indicates it’s phenomenally expensive, meaning a hydrogen vehicle is more expensive to run than a petrol vehicle.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/analysis-it-is-now-almost-14-times-more-expensive-to-drive-a-toyota-hydrogen-car-in-california-than-a-comparable-tesla-ev/2-1-1519315
Here’s some actual numbers, $200 usd to fill a Mirai, which will give you about 600km of range.
As to the battery swap thing, it took decades, and an EU ultimatum, for everyone to agree on a charging standard, what do you think your chances are of everyone agreeing on a battery design?
The truck companies I’ve seen doing hydrogen are generating the hydrogen themselves with water and electricity. I’m not sure whether it’s financially viable or not, they seem to be doing it for the reduced carbon emmisions.
And yeah, you’re right, a common battery standard will probably only exist if say GM or some group of Japanese car companies uses a standard across all their brands and allows this to be used by others. In other words, chances are probably pretty slim.
PHEVs are the best of both worlds for me living in an apartment with limited charging capacity.
We have two shared charges for PHEVs, they can be used for four hours maximum per day, this means that I can drive in EV mode to and from the shops as well as to my parents house, if I need to go further, I turn on Hybrid mode and it gives me great milage for a long time.