You see a correlation, and see fit to assume a causation, without digging into it further yourself. Case in point: You claiming that non-Capitalist countries tend to have worse outcomes than Capitalist countries, without looking any further.
Pretty sure I was, though? I talked about e.g. with Cuba, some of the reasons why it has worse outcomes economically and briefly touched on some areas where its outcomes are fine.
I haven’t been digging into it in detail for the USSR or China for a few different reasons, but first and foremost is I’m not even sure if that’s the type of thing you’re advocating for. That’s why I keep asking for an example of a country (or a detailed description I guess, if you’re saying it’s never happened before) which could be the model which you’re saying would work here, and then I can say more about the beyond-simple-correlation outcomes and reasons.
a developed economy that was struggling massively expanded Social Safety Nets for great results. The floor itself, however, started much, much, much higher than the squalor that Tsarist Russia and KMT-dominated China had.
Yeah, I can agree with this. I guess I should ask, am I right in even thinking that you think non-capitalism would be better in the US, as compared with the system right now? Before I say anything else.
In both Maoist China and the USSR, food stability rose steadily alongside industrialization until it became a non-issue.
Pretty sure this isn’t true. Relative to starvation, sure. Relative the the US’s current level of food insecurity, I would take the current US level above any historical level from the USSR at any point, and the current US level is absolutely inexcusable in a wealthy-as-a-whole first world country.
If you’re still following along, I’ll simplify. If you suspect that an outcome may be due to a certain cause, you must actually analyze the causes and see if they are necessarily repeatable if tried again, or if they can be implemented in a far better manner. Everything about Socialism that has failed seems to be entirely due to mismanagement and a lack of development, which any country should be able to learn from and avoid in their transition to Socialism.
So it’s completely easy to do if you’re competent, but it hasn’t worked and there have been problems including mass starvation the two times it was tried in a US-sized country, but if we did it this time it would definitely work because it’s easy?
I’m making fun a little bit. I’m happy to talk in more deeper detail if you hold up either a detailed description of what you think should replace capitalism in the US, or an example country.
So as an example – you talked about worker-owned collectives; does that mean Target would be owned collectively by the cashiers? Who makes decisions about the direction of the company; the democratically elected government, or a manager class (how are managers chosen?), or the cashiers directly by voting, or how?
For pure leftist theory, I’ll point you to Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price, and Profit by Karl Marx, found here: https://www.marxists.org/
I personally find myself agreeing more with Anarchists on certain issues, and don’t consider myself a Marxist-Leninist, for what it’s worth, though I try to be as unbiased as possible when reading theory I am not familiar with.
Additionally, The Wretched of the Earth is a fantastic book on colonialism and Capitalism, as well as Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Fall of Communism in the USSR, which is a fantastic book on misconceptions about the USSR, why it fell, and the dangers of fascism and how it rises.
Happy to. I can’t promise anything in particular as I already have a reading list but do you want to send me anything in particular to prioritize I can take a look at it first.
(Side note, this is exactly what the Republicans said would happen; OH GOD HE WENT ON THE INTERNET AND NOW HE’S READING MARX; I CAN’T WAIT TO BRING THIS UP AT THE HEARING) 😀
I just skimmed a little bit of “Wage Labor and Capital,” not really enough for it to be fair for me to say anything about it. To me though it looks like a lot of the conclusions in the little tiny piece I read, don’t apply if the working class has a strong union which can fight to be included in the distribution of wealth from increasing profits. It looks like a pretty accurate description of what happens and what’s at work in the modern US, in the (currently accurate) situation where capital can do whatever it wants and labor is isolated from acting collectively to address unfairness. But like I say, that’s only just sort of poking into one piece at random at a first glance.
-I’m not advocating for the USSR or Maoist China, correct. I avoid making specific claims because each country is different, and their road to Socialism will be different. What will remain common is Worker Ownership.
-Socialism would be better for the current US, yes.
-Depends on what period of time you’re referring to. Even at the most developed, the USSR was still not able to be considered a developed country, and it was behind where China is today, and China today is still a developing country. There’s a huge difference there. Compare the country to itself, and Capitalist countries with a similar level of development, not the literal most developed country in history.
-It’s worth noting that WLaC and VPP are both incredibly short, introductory texts, and will skim over the vast majority of Marxism. They make up 10% or so of what Capital’s first volume of 3 covers, Marxism is incredibly dense and developed. Still, reading WLaC and VPP put you ahead of 90% of leftists.
-I’ll answer your Target question now. The short and correct answer is that it depends on the type of Socialism, whether it’s Market Socialism, or Syndicalism, or even Marxism-Leninism. The general idea is that the Workers can vote, in more Anarchist forms that’s sufficient, in ML structures they would be a part of a Soviet and there would be no indivodual Target entity, and vote on issues and vote on a representative to represent them in the higher Soviet, in Market Socialism they would likely elect a manager that they can oust if they deem necessary, etc. This is where you will find leftism splinters dramatically.
Pretty sure I was, though? I talked about e.g. with Cuba, some of the reasons why it has worse outcomes economically and briefly touched on some areas where its outcomes are fine.
I haven’t been digging into it in detail for the USSR or China for a few different reasons, but first and foremost is I’m not even sure if that’s the type of thing you’re advocating for. That’s why I keep asking for an example of a country (or a detailed description I guess, if you’re saying it’s never happened before) which could be the model which you’re saying would work here, and then I can say more about the beyond-simple-correlation outcomes and reasons.
Yeah, I can agree with this. I guess I should ask, am I right in even thinking that you think non-capitalism would be better in the US, as compared with the system right now? Before I say anything else.
Pretty sure this isn’t true. Relative to starvation, sure. Relative the the US’s current level of food insecurity, I would take the current US level above any historical level from the USSR at any point, and the current US level is absolutely inexcusable in a wealthy-as-a-whole first world country.
So it’s completely easy to do if you’re competent, but it hasn’t worked and there have been problems including mass starvation the two times it was tried in a US-sized country, but if we did it this time it would definitely work because it’s easy?
I’m making fun a little bit. I’m happy to talk in more deeper detail if you hold up either a detailed description of what you think should replace capitalism in the US, or an example country.
So as an example – you talked about worker-owned collectives; does that mean Target would be owned collectively by the cashiers? Who makes decisions about the direction of the company; the democratically elected government, or a manager class (how are managers chosen?), or the cashiers directly by voting, or how?
Happy to. I can’t promise anything in particular as I already have a reading list but do you want to send me anything in particular to prioritize I can take a look at it first.
(Side note, this is exactly what the Republicans said would happen; OH GOD HE WENT ON THE INTERNET AND NOW HE’S READING MARX; I CAN’T WAIT TO BRING THIS UP AT THE HEARING) 😀
I just skimmed a little bit of “Wage Labor and Capital,” not really enough for it to be fair for me to say anything about it. To me though it looks like a lot of the conclusions in the little tiny piece I read, don’t apply if the working class has a strong union which can fight to be included in the distribution of wealth from increasing profits. It looks like a pretty accurate description of what happens and what’s at work in the modern US, in the (currently accurate) situation where capital can do whatever it wants and labor is isolated from acting collectively to address unfairness. But like I say, that’s only just sort of poking into one piece at random at a first glance.
-I’m not advocating for the USSR or Maoist China, correct. I avoid making specific claims because each country is different, and their road to Socialism will be different. What will remain common is Worker Ownership.
-Socialism would be better for the current US, yes.
-Depends on what period of time you’re referring to. Even at the most developed, the USSR was still not able to be considered a developed country, and it was behind where China is today, and China today is still a developing country. There’s a huge difference there. Compare the country to itself, and Capitalist countries with a similar level of development, not the literal most developed country in history.
-It’s worth noting that WLaC and VPP are both incredibly short, introductory texts, and will skim over the vast majority of Marxism. They make up 10% or so of what Capital’s first volume of 3 covers, Marxism is incredibly dense and developed. Still, reading WLaC and VPP put you ahead of 90% of leftists.
-I’ll answer your Target question now. The short and correct answer is that it depends on the type of Socialism, whether it’s Market Socialism, or Syndicalism, or even Marxism-Leninism. The general idea is that the Workers can vote, in more Anarchist forms that’s sufficient, in ML structures they would be a part of a Soviet and there would be no indivodual Target entity, and vote on issues and vote on a representative to represent them in the higher Soviet, in Market Socialism they would likely elect a manager that they can oust if they deem necessary, etc. This is where you will find leftism splinters dramatically.