In a story out of Springfield Elementary School in Des Moines, IA, 9-year-old Max Hannagan, who was suspended for verbally harassing his fellow third graders, has now claimed he was just “pushing boundaries” with his comedy.
“Did I caw Jimmy a loser? Yes,” Max told reporters while rocking ba
(Btw someone already downvoted you and I just wanted to be clear that it was not me)
You are kinda all over the map here - you jumped from hollywood has zero impact on us to how they are trying to kill us. I get it, both are true, in differing ways, but it points to how complex these topics are (e.g. Hollywood has little direct effects on us, and some people in it are highly irresponsible - also, Joe Rogan is from Austin Texas not Hollywood California, but that’s not terribly relevant, just saying that we could get lost in all the little “details” for days on end!:-P).
One simplifying rule: Right or Wrong, the biggest thing in life, at least as it relates to Freedom, seems to me to be the notion of “consent”. e.g. Hitler/Putin/whoever invades countries: if they somehow wanted that (spank me hardy Nazi daddy) then it’s all cool, but on the off-chance that it was nonconsensual, then it is NOT COOL.
If Netflix were to drop Chappelle b/c he’s not funny, then that’s their choice. But if they drop him b/c one segment of society has an enormous amount of power, especially in proportion to their numbers, then that is “not fair”. Why can’t *I* watch Chappelle, if I want to, just b/c “they” say that I can’t? That’s not freedom, and I might have an opinion on that. On the other hand, maybe my opinion is undeserved? Like if Chappelle were to advocate violence against America, that should get him cancelled, or if he were to advocate that we become actual, literal Nazis (even without the urgent and direct call to the actual violence), then that too should get him cancelled. But saying that he is perpetuating “violence” against trans people…
On this point I am willing to be convinced, bc I haven’t managed to come to a firm stance here yet. Although you haven’t even watched his special so you could not be the one to do that for me in any case. On its face though it seems absurd to me - not wanting to call someone by a preferred pronoun is not the same thing as “violence”. And to be clear, *I* myself will call people by their preferred pronoun, plus I also will always use “they” if it is unknown, but even so I do appreciate his insight there, that consent of all the parties involved should matter. So especially if someone starts the school year with one pronoun and then changes it midway through, it makes sense that it may get difficult to always remember to switch, especially if the person still presents as the other gender (e.g. a man with a deep voice now calling herself a woman - yet still has a deep voice?). I’m saying that it’s confusing, and it’s NEW.
More to the point, Chappelle barely talks about trans people at all (edit: used to, before the attempt to cancel him over it), except to point out the extreme unfairness of it all. Black people have been trying to be called “people” for HUNDREDS OF YEARS, but then homosexual white men advocate for their chosen lifestyle and suddenly in ONE DECADE win a Supreme Court that makes it legal to get married? And now trans people are coming up, and even though as you say they are so rare that most of us have never even so much as MET one before (I had lots of gay friends - both men & women, and most of the people I become friends with online seem to be homosexual men, I think b/c of the sensitivity aspect that allows us to enjoy talking with one another - but even so I have never met a single trans person in my entire lifetime that I know of), and yet despite that, they instantly get a seat at the table? Suddenly we all have to use whatever pronouns they want? As if they are… “people”? Well, they are, but also: BREONNA TAYLOR WAS SLEEPING!!! His point seems to me to be: why can’t black people be treated the same way - as “people”? - like, whenever a trans person is harmed, people rise up in arms and defend them, but except trans, do that for black? He has this wonderful story about being called into HR and told never to say the “F-a-.”(-o-t) word again. He agrees, but asks: “why not”, especially when he can use the N- word with impunity? The response is that he is not one of them. HIS response in turn is that well, he isn’t an N- word either!?!?!?!:-P
Also, Chappelle has advanced civil rights for his entire lifetime, by breaking into what was previously mostly-white or mostly-black spaces, and bringing audiences together from both races that enjoy his brand. But now the newest minority group has the gall to tell him the equivalent of “thanks removed-ass n-word, but you can go back out into the fields now, we got this”. He feels sleighted, he feels ignored, he feels… much like the trans people must feel, except instead of displaying sensitivity, both of those sides for whatever reason cannot seem to get along.
And then here we are, talking about what is going on in Hollywood, as if it is important:-). But the whole country is getting up in arms over all of this - to the point of checking people’s literal genitals, bathrooms, in sports, and on and on. Both sides are pushing on this hot-button topic: either for or against, it’s YUGE. What I get from Dave’s comedy is that if we put even 1% of that energy and attention into solving racism, then it would be over by the end of the day tomorrow. Right or Wrong (the issue did not arise in just one day hence will not be solved in one either), … he has a point? White people have, once again, appropriated civil rights language and processes, and in so doing managed to entirely ignore the oppression of black people. Like, I don’t know if refusing to use preferred pronouns is a form of “violence” (I cannot imagine that it feels very nice, but is that word too extreme?), but what is happening all across the nation to black people - e.g. in Ferguson MO - is ACTUAL VIOLENCE. And it would be nice if BOTH issues were to receive attention, although at the time a lot of his specials were coming out (before BLM, before the situation with Floyd was caught on camera), trans were getting nearly all of the attention while black people little to none, at least, on the larger scale. Thankfully, that has changed somewhat. Except… has it though?
(Btw I don’t care about internet points so don’t worry about it)
I think it sounds all over the place because I recognize that Hollywood is something that’s a significant thing in our society BUT I don’t think it should be.
Seems like a downward spiral to me. So he’s making more and more of his routine based not on making the funniest jokes possible, he’s making his routine about spite. Sorry I don’t find spiteful people all that funny.
I think there’s too much focus on whether or not Dave Chappelle has a right to say what he’s saying that there isn’t enough consideration given to whether or not what he’s doing is actually right. He’s bullying people in his show. Creating a culture where it’s normalized to denigrate people that are already has a big target on them.
While everyone has a right to say something that is wrong, trying to keep the discussion focused only on the right to say something is just avoiding the fact that Chappelle is in the wrong here.
I love Norm MacDonald’s (RIP) take on this. Something like “yeah I might be just joking around about trans people but then someone takes it the wrong way and beats the shit out of a trans person.” Norm was one of the most fearless comedian of all time but he stopped making trans jokes. Not because he was afraid of being cancelled (it’s Norm, c’mon) but because he understood that an old joke isn’t as important as someone getting the shit kicked out of them. Even if there’s only a possibility of that happening is it worth it? It’s just entertainment, it’s not really worth that much.
Sometimes jokes just expire. Old jokes that just aren’t funny anymore just have to be retired.
So I was a teenager when the movie Ace Ventura Pet Detective came out. Prime demographic for that movie. At the end of the movie there are a lot of trans jokes. I laughed at these jokes. But in the thirty years since that movie came out, I’d like to think I learned a few things. One of the things I’ve learned in the decades since seeing that movie was that trans people are people. Those jokes were mean spirited. And if I see that movie again, the ending only reminds of what a stupid shit I was when I was a teenager. I’d be cringing too hard to be capable of laughing at those jokes. So I’ll probably not be watching Ace Ventura again because I know the cringe that’ll be having at the end of the movie. Cancelled.
In my town many years before I was born there were minstrel shows. You know shows, where guys put on blackface and pranced around like fools. My parent’s generation had a discussion about this one time. People would pack up the kids go to these shows and have a good time. But then at some point people realized “wait this is super racist.” and everyone started going to the shows. So the people that did the shows made some changes. No more black face. From that point forward it just be a show with clowns. Same basic show, but no more blackface. You know what happened? Nobody went. People just didn’t feel good about buying tickets, packing up the kids and going to the show even after the blackface element was removed. When it’s an entertainment product, it really doesn’t take all that much to decide “nah I’m not going to make effort to go to something I don’t feel completely good about.” The show was shut down permanently. Cancelled.
Culture changes, what was funny in the past is no longer funny now. So why is Dave Chappelle still making trans jokes 30 years after Ace Ventura? Is there a link there to the anti-trans politics happening now?
Dave Chappelle isn’t worth watching now. If Netflix doesn’t want their brand associated with Chappelle’s downward spiral into bigotry (which isn’t funny to a lot of people), they have the right to disassociate themselves from him. He has a right to say what he wants to say, but there is no right to have a comedy special on Netflix. If that’s the case, I want to star in a comedy special on Netflix, I think I’m a funny guy. If Netflix denies me a comedy special, will you be angry about them denying me my rights?
Or is it because Dave Chappelle is famous he has the right to be on Netflix? And we’re back to that para-social relationship with celebrities that makes people feel they deserve special treatment and they have the right to things we don’t have a right to.
Dave Chappelle has the right to say what he wants even when he’s wrong. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t wrong. Netflix has the right to cancel his show, it’s their streaming site. People have the right to petition Netflix to cancel Chappelle.
None of this would’ve happened if Chappelle had a better awareness of the shifts in cultural norms. Which is part of his job. He didn’t do his job very well, and anyone
And is Dave Chappelle making things better? Perhaps it’s better for Netflix to stop showing his specials until people settle down a little?
Also it’s not quite a both sides kind of thing. One side wants to take away people’s right to live their lives how they want. The other side wants everyone to continue to have that right. It’s not so much pushing the issue, it’s more like pushing back against people that want to take away rights from a group that’s a convenient target. Trans people have been around my whole life. Why all of a sudden all this urgency about this? Could it be something fabricated by people that want to take away rights, and this happens to be the group that a lot of people would tolerate losing rights? Call me paranoid, but I don’t know if the people that want to take away the rights of one group of people will stop there.
And these are actual rights. not Hollywood “rights” which seem to be all about the “right” of famous narcissists to remain famous even when people don’t like them anymore. Don’t worry so much about Chappelle, he’s a millionaire, he’ll be fine. Trans people though… I’m not sure if they’ll be fine if things keep going the way they are.
One thing that bugs me: when Jon Stewart was accused of making fun of trans people, he had the grace and class to apologize. e.g. he made a joke one time about a “removed prostitute”, and he indicated that he was sorry, and realizes now that it was wrong - people should never “punch down”.
The thing with Chappelle is that as a black man, it is not clear that has ever “punched down”? Even so, he probably should have risen to the occasion and just apologized. I think he’s correct in what he’s saying, though profits off of saying it offensively so does that. Which still advances the cause of getting the issues discussed more broadly in society, but also rankles a bit - a role that he seems okay with, and might even be necessary, though not one that we should ever aspire to ourselves. He at least is smart enough to handle walking that line, and deal with whatever consequences may come.
Also, oddly enough, whether it’s due to Chappelle’s challenges or whatever, I hear some of the same talk coming from actual LGBTQ comedians? e.g., there is a difference b/t “sex” and “gender” - like if a big dude walks up to you, with a beard and a deep voice, and says that they are a woman, obviously they must be referring to the latter rather than former, but it’s not always so easy to tell otherwise.
Though Chappelle is saying that from the “outside”, while there are other dicussions happening from the “inside”, so he still gets razed b/c he shouldn’t be the one saying it, even if they are identical words. Context matters. Also, he says it in an insensitive manner, b/c that too is his style of reaching out to poor, less educated people.
And all of this is complicated still further by the actions of the other side - e.g. there was some controversy about how employees of Netflix tried to force their way into director-level meetings about the subject, and they were fired. Was that b/c they were trans? Not… entirely, or even mostly - they were fired b/c they were acting entitled and ignoring the standards of professional behavior. Though there was a huge outcry b/c how dare Netflix fire people “for being trans”. (Also relevant, their being trans themselves gave them sympathy, which lead to why they acted the way that they did, feeling personally impacted).
Remember though, “cancelling” isn’t simply choosing not to go to a show anymore - that’s your personal choice, and it does not rise to “cancelling” until something like a gang of bikers blocks all the roadways leading into the show. The show people paid money for the venue, did the advertising, rented the space, got the permits, travelled, using their gasoline, and on and on it goes - and some of the audience members likewise wanted to come, but something in-between the seller and the buyer blocked them, “cancelling” the show, setting themselves up as the moral authority to show-block the will of all of the other parties. i.e., they acted as Karens, exactly in the same manner as those states that are trying to block medical care to trans people, but on the other side. Whenever you set yourself up to be the moral authority of a subject, different expectations begin to be applied to a “leader” rather than a mere participant.
Here’s an interesting article on it: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/06/1050313989/netflix-dave-chappelle-cancel-culture-trans-employees:
So… there are problems and imperfect steps taken by all sides of this matter. And it does not help that trans people seem like they could care less about issues faced by black people - they just want theirs, and that’s all. It would help if we all could push just for “civil rights” and have that be inclusive of ALL, but b/c of the extremely low numbers, plus the extreme severity of the issues faced by black people, if that were to happen then trans people would not have gotten a fraction of the attention that has been awarded there in the past (if effort was put in according to that principle “to each according to their need”). Again, words may hurt people’s feelings but… you know what I am going to say don’t you… BREONNA TAYLOR WAS SLEEPING!!! Those are not at the same level at all.
It’s not like there’s a hierarchy of which group is worse off than the other. Chappelle is a multi-milliionaire with Netflix specials. Money = power, and he’s got a lot of money. So he has a lot more power than the people he’s attacking. That’s punching down. If a trans person was as wealthy and well established as Dave Chappelle and started talking shit about black people, it would be also be punching down. Money has a big part to play in this, as it does in most aspects of our society.
It’s generally accepted that it’s fine for members of a group to talk about their own group. Within reason, of course. Nobody is upset if Dave Chappelle makes commentary on the black community.
I dunno. Probably just ask. Generally if you’re respectful to others you’re not going to have problems when there’s confusion.
Yup. That’s how it works on lots of things. If I say “there are a lot of problems with the US” do those words have different meaning if it’s an American saying it vs. if a non-American says it? If it’s an American saying it, it’s an invitation to discuss the problems of the country with a peer. If a non-Amercan says it, It comes off as a little judgemental doesn’t it?
Yeah ultimately companies are all about making money. I always laugh when people say things like Disney is woke. Or Hasbro is woke for how they market Potato heads. Or the Dr. Seuss Company is woke for pulling some books. There’s actually something these companies have in common. They all make products directed at young people. They’ve done market research and they decide things based on what will make them money.
Disney fired Gina Corano so that Millenials would feel comfortable watching the next season of Mandorian with their kids. It was important for those kids to see what Mando’s new spaceship looked like so they would want that toy for Christmas. Because that’s what Disney really cares about: money.
It may shock you to learn that there are actually black trans people.
Agree completely. But consider that those that are against this may be taking a divide and conquer approach. Pit various minority groups against one another so people can’t unite in a common cause for rights for everyone. Trans people are always the group that people using this approach go after first. Like I say, they’re a very small group, not a lot of people have trans friends, people feel confused and uncomfortable about trans people. So it’s easy to isolate them and take away their rights. But people that are all about taking away people’s rights usually don’t stop with just trans people.
If we want people to unite for the common interest of civil rights for everyone, then is Dave Chappelle helping in that cause?
The answer to that depends: is he correct? Even so, it does not help that he was being crass. Bc of the latter, even if trans people themselves end up coming to the same endpoint, they seem unlikely to thank him? Then again, he was not advocating for trans people, he was advocating for black, at which point it seems helpful how he pointed out what the the prioritization should be: danger to life first, then secondary concerns.
The Kremlin doesn’t pay you enough.