Donald Trump, the frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination, said on Saturday that he would kill off a Pacific trade pact being advanced by U.S. President Joe Biden if he were to win the 2024 election and return to the White House.
If we can make Biden understand that we won’t vote for him without a ceasefire, don’t you think that maybe that will pressure him to change his position? Or do you believe that he is so 100% committed to supporting genocide that absolutely nothing can change his mind?
I’m pretty sure that Biden is a reasonable politician who has shown over and over again throughout his long career that he both listens to people and that he is willing to change is mind. He’s done so time and time again.
Man it’s unfortunate that you privileged moralizing purists are not as reasonable as Biden. You guys absolutely refuse not to support more and worse genocide for some awfully stupid reason. I would love to see you change your mind and actually work towards the greater good.
Okay, so if Biden can change his mind, isn’t it our duty to pressure him to change his mind?
I’m sure we can do that. And if we do that, I can vote for Biden without supporting genocide. Wouldn’t that be great?! If you didn’t have to choose the lesser genocide, but actually could just stop the genocide? You said it yourself, he can change his mind! Let’s help him do so.
And that means holding his feet to the fire. You blue-no-matter-who voters have zero leverage and no voice. We’re the swing voters now.
Definitely it’s our duty to pressure him to change his mind. In fact, there are so many ways to do that. But holding your vote hostage is not one of them.
In fact, holding your vote hostage is just about the worst thing you could do, because 1) Biden will never know about it, since it amounts to a mere mathematical 1 or a 0 that doesn’t bring any information to him, and 2) it directly supports the election of a candidate who would bring more genocide. If genocide is your single-issue-vote, and it sounds like it is, then you are absolutely making the worst political choice you can. That’s not my opinion; that’s a mathematical fact.
You blue-no-matter-who voters have zero leverage and no voice.
Never was a more clueless statement expressed on lemmy.
My dude, like you said it is our duty to reach out to him and try to change his mind. Politics is not decided once every four years in the ballot box. That’s how presidents are decided. Politics is policy, and that is decided every day of the year. If you sit on your ass and every for years you make a protest vote in support of the greater evil, you are the exemplification of the “idiot swing voter” who is so dumb they vote against their own interest. In other words, the exact kind of person who the GOP bamboozles in order to retain their power.
If your goal is to minimize genocide, are you honestly comfortable playing the role of a stooge who actually helps bring about more and worse genocide???
Throw out this idea that a protest vote will do anything helpful at all. A protest vote mathematically helps to serve the person who you least want elected. This is a mathematical fact. For example, if you hate Democrats but you just don’t love Trump enough, so you do a protest vote for the Libertarian candidate, your ballot is actually doing more to help Biden! And conversely, if you absolutely don’t want Trump to win, but you don’t like Biden enough to vote for him so you do a protest vote for Greens, or a write-in for AOC, or whatever, you are actually giving support to Trump!
This is mathematical fact, not some opinion of mine and the other posters here. That’s what we’re trying to illustrate to you and those like you.
I sympathize with your position. I would prefer AOC, or Bernie, or some other candidate than Biden. But the election is a binary choice, and doing anything other than voting for candidate A or candidate B works out mathematically to supporting the candidate you favor the least.
So back to holding Biden’s feet to the fire. Do that. Always do that. March, sign petitions, be an activist. Write emails to Biden. Write to your senators and House representatives. Be active in politicians beyond pressing a button once every four years. That’s how you make a difference.
And if you actually care about genocide as much as you post about it, then please grasp the undeniable reality that a protest vote actually undermines your own cause.
My dude, like you said it is our duty to reach out to him and try to change his mind.
That’s why I’m going to try and reach out to make it known to their campaign that this will keep me and many other people from voting for him. I encourage everyone to do this. I’m not going to sit on my ass and do nothing, I’m going to rub their noses in the fact that they are destroying their own reelection chances by supporting genocide.
This is leverage that you are just leaving on the table. What influence do you have if your vote is guaranteed? They can ignore everything you say or want because you’re locked in. Your marching is worthless, your petitions are worthless, your activism is worthless, you are nothing to them because they already have your vote. Why should they give a shit about you?
Me? I want to make it clear that my vote and the votes of many other progressives are on the line. They think they can ignore us because we’re locked in. We have to tell them they’re wrong, they have to understand that they can’t ignore us or they will lose.
Again, blue-no-matter-who voters are irrelevant to them. They can exploit you as hard and long as they want and you’ll beg for more.
I’ve explained the solution to the problem, I’ve explained why holding your vote hostage doesn’t work the way you think it does, and I’ve explained how you’re being duped into supporting the end result you claim not to want above all else.
I don’t see any point in continuing this. You didn’t seem to read or acknowledge what I wrote, and just went and repeated the same thing all over again. It’s like you’ve put yourself up on a pedestal of moralizing ignorance and just plug your ears to everything that threatens to knock you off. I can’t force you to understand something if you don’t want to understand it, and I don’t feel like repeating myself over and over again when it won’t be acknowledged or read.
You’ll probably reply with some more insults and straw man arguments like you’ve been doing, but some other user whose mind isn’t closed with arrogance and whose thinking is not blinded by their own privilege might see then and realize just how blind, foolish, and self-defeating this purity position is.
March, sign petitions, be an activist. Write emails to Biden. Write to your senators and House representatives. Be active in politicians beyond pressing a button once every four years. That’s how you make a differenc
I do not see any explanation for why Biden should give a shit about blue-no-matter-who voters who march or protest or write petitions or send letters or emails or call or anything. I don’t get it. Why should their campaign care what a whiney blue-no-matter-who voters says? They’re guaranteed to vote for Biden, there’s no reason to bother listening to them at all! What leverage do they have?
What is the mechanism of action that makes marching or petititons or emails work when your vote is already locked in?
You have not explained this, so stop insulting me and stop talking down to me and stop telling me I’m a dupe and blind and foolish and self-defeating and simply explain why he should give a shit about you.
Me? I’ll march and sign petitions and be an activist and write emails and letters saying I won’t vote without a ceasefire. That actually puts pressure on the campaign, it shows them that they need to listen to me because if they don’t then they are going to lose.
You? You’ll march and sign petitions and be an activist and write emails and letters saying “pwetty pwetty pwees stawp the genowcide uwu” and they could laugh in your face because you’ll still vote for them no matter what they do to you. You. Are. Irrelevant. You have no leverage, you can’t hold his feet to the fire, you can’t apply pressure, you are nothing. You might as well be a dog that can vote.
You insulted me first, so yeah, I’m going to hit back. Go ahead, read up the comment chain. You attacked me, you got nasty with me, and then I responded in kind. I’m not going to just let you punch down on me and take it. Go ahead, be smug that you provoked me.
You’re dodging because you don’t have an answer. Maybe you didn’t read it the first time! I’ll post it again for you:
What is the mechanism of action that makes marching or petititons or emails work when your vote is already locked in?
I feel like you’re highlighting rhetoric that is being lost.
I’m not pissing my pants over threat of Trump. Noone should.
I am pissing my pants that America is sending money to Israel to buy rockets from American suppliers to execute a genocide.
I am passing my pants that a Democrat President that can’t get legislation passed to forgive student loan debt got legislation passed to make it illegal by punishment of prison to go on strike.
I am pissing my pants that a Democrat president met with a foreign dictator, identified him as a dictator, buy insist wr should work with him on a fentynal prohibition agenda.
I’m tired of “Democrat” being “Republican lite because the Republicans force us to be Republican lite.”
The 2 party system can fuck off for all I care until I have a true blue liberal to vote for again.
If we can make Biden understand that we won’t vote for him without a ceasefire, don’t you think that maybe that will pressure him to change his position? Or do you believe that he is so 100% committed to supporting genocide that absolutely nothing can change his mind?
I’m pretty sure that Biden is a reasonable politician who has shown over and over again throughout his long career that he both listens to people and that he is willing to change is mind. He’s done so time and time again.
Man it’s unfortunate that you privileged moralizing purists are not as reasonable as Biden. You guys absolutely refuse not to support more and worse genocide for some awfully stupid reason. I would love to see you change your mind and actually work towards the greater good.
Okay, so if Biden can change his mind, isn’t it our duty to pressure him to change his mind?
I’m sure we can do that. And if we do that, I can vote for Biden without supporting genocide. Wouldn’t that be great?! If you didn’t have to choose the lesser genocide, but actually could just stop the genocide? You said it yourself, he can change his mind! Let’s help him do so.
And that means holding his feet to the fire. You blue-no-matter-who voters have zero leverage and no voice. We’re the swing voters now.
Definitely it’s our duty to pressure him to change his mind. In fact, there are so many ways to do that. But holding your vote hostage is not one of them.
In fact, holding your vote hostage is just about the worst thing you could do, because 1) Biden will never know about it, since it amounts to a mere mathematical 1 or a 0 that doesn’t bring any information to him, and 2) it directly supports the election of a candidate who would bring more genocide. If genocide is your single-issue-vote, and it sounds like it is, then you are absolutely making the worst political choice you can. That’s not my opinion; that’s a mathematical fact.
Never was a more clueless statement expressed on lemmy.
My dude, like you said it is our duty to reach out to him and try to change his mind. Politics is not decided once every four years in the ballot box. That’s how presidents are decided. Politics is policy, and that is decided every day of the year. If you sit on your ass and every for years you make a protest vote in support of the greater evil, you are the exemplification of the “idiot swing voter” who is so dumb they vote against their own interest. In other words, the exact kind of person who the GOP bamboozles in order to retain their power.
If your goal is to minimize genocide, are you honestly comfortable playing the role of a stooge who actually helps bring about more and worse genocide???
Throw out this idea that a protest vote will do anything helpful at all. A protest vote mathematically helps to serve the person who you least want elected. This is a mathematical fact. For example, if you hate Democrats but you just don’t love Trump enough, so you do a protest vote for the Libertarian candidate, your ballot is actually doing more to help Biden! And conversely, if you absolutely don’t want Trump to win, but you don’t like Biden enough to vote for him so you do a protest vote for Greens, or a write-in for AOC, or whatever, you are actually giving support to Trump!
This is mathematical fact, not some opinion of mine and the other posters here. That’s what we’re trying to illustrate to you and those like you.
I sympathize with your position. I would prefer AOC, or Bernie, or some other candidate than Biden. But the election is a binary choice, and doing anything other than voting for candidate A or candidate B works out mathematically to supporting the candidate you favor the least.
So back to holding Biden’s feet to the fire. Do that. Always do that. March, sign petitions, be an activist. Write emails to Biden. Write to your senators and House representatives. Be active in politicians beyond pressing a button once every four years. That’s how you make a difference.
And if you actually care about genocide as much as you post about it, then please grasp the undeniable reality that a protest vote actually undermines your own cause.
That’s why I’m going to try and reach out to make it known to their campaign that this will keep me and many other people from voting for him. I encourage everyone to do this. I’m not going to sit on my ass and do nothing, I’m going to rub their noses in the fact that they are destroying their own reelection chances by supporting genocide.
This is leverage that you are just leaving on the table. What influence do you have if your vote is guaranteed? They can ignore everything you say or want because you’re locked in. Your marching is worthless, your petitions are worthless, your activism is worthless, you are nothing to them because they already have your vote. Why should they give a shit about you?
Me? I want to make it clear that my vote and the votes of many other progressives are on the line. They think they can ignore us because we’re locked in. We have to tell them they’re wrong, they have to understand that they can’t ignore us or they will lose.
Again, blue-no-matter-who voters are irrelevant to them. They can exploit you as hard and long as they want and you’ll beg for more.
I’ve explained the solution to the problem, I’ve explained why holding your vote hostage doesn’t work the way you think it does, and I’ve explained how you’re being duped into supporting the end result you claim not to want above all else.
I don’t see any point in continuing this. You didn’t seem to read or acknowledge what I wrote, and just went and repeated the same thing all over again. It’s like you’ve put yourself up on a pedestal of moralizing ignorance and just plug your ears to everything that threatens to knock you off. I can’t force you to understand something if you don’t want to understand it, and I don’t feel like repeating myself over and over again when it won’t be acknowledged or read.
You’ll probably reply with some more insults and straw man arguments like you’ve been doing, but some other user whose mind isn’t closed with arrogance and whose thinking is not blinded by their own privilege might see then and realize just how blind, foolish, and self-defeating this purity position is.
Okay, maybe I’m fucking stupid. I must be!
Your solution is:
I do not see any explanation for why Biden should give a shit about blue-no-matter-who voters who march or protest or write petitions or send letters or emails or call or anything. I don’t get it. Why should their campaign care what a whiney blue-no-matter-who voters says? They’re guaranteed to vote for Biden, there’s no reason to bother listening to them at all! What leverage do they have?
What is the mechanism of action that makes marching or petititons or emails work when your vote is already locked in?
You have not explained this, so stop insulting me and stop talking down to me and stop telling me I’m a dupe and blind and foolish and self-defeating and simply explain why he should give a shit about you.
Me? I’ll march and sign petitions and be an activist and write emails and letters saying I won’t vote without a ceasefire. That actually puts pressure on the campaign, it shows them that they need to listen to me because if they don’t then they are going to lose.
You? You’ll march and sign petitions and be an activist and write emails and letters saying “pwetty pwetty pwees stawp the genowcide uwu” and they could laugh in your face because you’ll still vote for them no matter what they do to you. You. Are. Irrelevant. You have no leverage, you can’t hold his feet to the fire, you can’t apply pressure, you are nothing. You might as well be a dog that can vote.
And there it is, just as predicted.
You insulted me first, so yeah, I’m going to hit back. Go ahead, read up the comment chain. You attacked me, you got nasty with me, and then I responded in kind. I’m not going to just let you punch down on me and take it. Go ahead, be smug that you provoked me.
You’re dodging because you don’t have an answer. Maybe you didn’t read it the first time! I’ll post it again for you:
What is the mechanism of action that makes marching or petititons or emails work when your vote is already locked in?
This.
I feel like you’re highlighting rhetoric that is being lost.
I’m not pissing my pants over threat of Trump. Noone should.
I am pissing my pants that America is sending money to Israel to buy rockets from American suppliers to execute a genocide.
I am passing my pants that a Democrat President that can’t get legislation passed to forgive student loan debt got legislation passed to make it illegal by punishment of prison to go on strike.
I am pissing my pants that a Democrat president met with a foreign dictator, identified him as a dictator, buy insist wr should work with him on a fentynal prohibition agenda.
I’m tired of “Democrat” being “Republican lite because the Republicans force us to be Republican lite.”
The 2 party system can fuck off for all I care until I have a true blue liberal to vote for again.