A socialist revolution by definition cannot be fascist, fascism is a far right movement and a socialist revolution is far left movement they both have authoritarian aspects, but are polar opposites as far as the goals of each movement. Socialism is for the benefit of all, fascism is for the benefit of the few.
Also I’m not an accelerationist and am voting for Biden, there is no where near enough class conciousness in the States for a Prolitariat Revolution to occur, but once that critical tipping point is reached I think Landlords and Billionaires should get the wall if they refuse to peacefully give up their hordes of wealth and property for the common good and that the revolution should be defended by any means necessary.
Fine, I will grant you, you aren’t fascists. Fascists hate people and want to kill them.
Tankies love “the revolution” more than the people they want to benefit. You may not see it as breaking a few eggs to make an omelette, but when you sit out an election where the fascists have a better than coin flip odds of seizing power, you are effectively letting them do that. And if you’re willing to let trans people die in camps for… what was it? “Enough class consciousness to build” then… well, fuck you and your revolution.
Like, also this reveals your total all encompassing privilege. Because look dude, if the fascists are putting trans people and immigrants into camps, do you really think they will spare you? Or do you just think you’re white enough that you’ll go under the radar until your “revolution” happens?
Also, fuck any revolution that involves taking up the tools and institutions of power. Those need to be ground to dust
I’m not sure about that; I think a lot of radicalizing discourse of late comes from the same place. Life under late stage capitalism is hard, and people are not sure why, nor can they articulate it. And they can tell it’s getting worse. Its a rife breeding ground for fascists, but when you hit leftist spaces, the tankies have the biggest net. You’ll be greeted by r/socialism, and find yourself in its web of subs. You might get pulled in by a Gravel Institute video (especially since you might be aware of Prager U and are interested in a video from the other end). It might be Chapo Trap House. And a lot of entry points into Tankie spaces are extremely compelling. For a lot of people, it will be the first anti Imperial talking points they will ever hear, with no liberal “but this is the greatest nation” filter.
I think this content is actually good and useful. The USA is guilty of myriad atrocities that its citizenry doesn’t know about, or the full depth, or doesn’t think about in order to get through their daily life.
But then after you get past that, the Tankie reveals himself to be “Anti Nato” without an cohesive political or moral position, in a very “politics as a team sport” kind of way. Russia is a moderately sized challenger to NATO, so they love it. It is also a successor state to a Red Empire. Ukraine is NATO making overtures to NATO, so they don’t like it. Israel is an imperialist NATO outpost, and they are committing a genocide, so of course they don’t like it, but so many tankies have shown their whole ass diving into Antisemitism, making fun of Jewish names, or Jewish influence on policy, that Ive exited most of the tankie spaces I was still in. Antizionism is not antisemitism, and they are antisemites.
But compare that to China, where they deny a genocide because it is being perpetrated by the largest challenger to NATO and still nominally communist state in the world, and you have your answer.
But compare that to China, where they deny a genocide because it is being perpetrated by the largest challenger to NATO and still nominally communist state in the world, and you have your answer.
In fairness most people deny the genocide claims made by the anti=China think-tanks.
the Tankie reveals himself to be “Anti Nato” without an cohesive political or moral position
Opposition to NATO is a cohesive political position. We’re happy to explain our views when people are willing to hear us out, generally though, people just want to put nonsense into our mouths and then call us nonsensical.
but so many tankies have shown their whole ass diving into Antisemitism, making fun of Jewish names, or Jewish influence on policy, that Ive exited most of the tankie spaces I was still in. Antizionism is not antisemitism, and they are antisemites.
As usual about accusations towards tankies, there’s no link. Show your receipts or stop making stuff up.
“Opposition to NATO is a cohesive political position. We’re happy to explain our views when people are willing to hear us out, generally though, people just want to put nonsense into our mouths and then call us nonsensical.”
I’m not going to try to read on your ideology, but I think you’re missing why people dislike tankies.
It’s not that they are against NATO, Israel, US, Ukraine… Or that they support Russia, China…
The problems are two:
Absolute belief that the world is black and white, and that their side is a paragon of virtue and quality of life, and human rights… Any and all criticism is “western propaganda”. This means anything they can’t deny is the others side fault “Zelensky is to blame for defending” and “Israel is to blame for attacking”.
Beyond just “excusing” the atrocities, they love them. Anybody who opposes them is a valid target. They might rationalize it in some cases, but in the end there are no innocent civilians unless they support them.
Edit: I’ve seem to have hurt some tankies feelings. Good.
1 is just your lack of reading/knowledge. 2 is simply describing war/conflict in general (e.g. dronies don’t see innocent civilians among their enemies)
Funny how the self-proclaimed vanguard of the radical left are just incoherent anti-western reactionaries wearing Marxism like a fig leaf, isn’t it? Like, I’m all for breaking down the current neoliberal capitalist hegemony, but you’ve gotta have a hole in your head to want to replace it with a literal crime syndicate masquerading as a government or an oppressive hyper-capitalist dictatorship with imperialistic ambitions.
An interesting question, with (I think) a range of viable answers, in the angels-on-pinheads sense of pure theory. I personally think the sweet spot would be a broadly social-democratic system where basic industries are socialized to varying degrees, a regulated free market exists for novel industries and goods we would think of as “discretionary spending” items, and the market regulator has the capacity to move industries gradually from the latter category towards the former as they mature and become foundational to the society and economy.
How are Marxists-Leninists preventing Social Democracy? They aren’t organized, they have no viable political parties, as far as I know, they don’t even hold any state, or federal offices. It seems your complaints are with the neoliberals that are firmly in control.
Hate “tankies” all you want, but they are irrelevant to what is happening in America. This is punching down because people feel hopeless while facing a Trump re-election. It is unproductive and detrimental to building the unified coalition needed to fight fascism.
Are you confusing my argument that “tankies are useful idiots for authoritarianism whose actions have no relationship with their professed values” to imply that they’re somehow in the driver’s seat on anything? Or hell, that they’re even sincere Marxists?
My guy… I am trying to point out here that the mentality of “I feel hopeless about the current situation, so I’m going to agitate to throw it to a guy whose whole platform is ‘I’m gonna make everything so much worse!’ because that will somehow ultimately make things better” is pushing for an outcome that puts literal millions of vulnerable people in actual, immediate, mortal danger. In fact, tankies and others on the left making the argument that there’s no difference between Biden and Trump can only be making that argument from a place of privilege, because for anybody belonging to the many vulnerable minority groups that the far right intend to target if Trump wins again (nevermind anybody that would be negatively impacted by the geopolitical effects of Trump abandoning NATO, among other things) the difference is fucking stark, and you’d have to be far removed from any of those groups to think otherwise.
If I was to give this point of the benefit of the doubt (which, to be clear, I don’t) what you’re saying is that tankies are accelerationists. And I get it, to an extent – a comfortable middle class isn’t going to be concerned about the depredations of the right until they start to find themselves in the crosshairs – but the last time fascists got their way in the world, more than 73 million people died. Arguing, in effect, that the aftermath of another world war will be better for the survivors is a… challenging point to defend when it requires you to dismiss the deaths of a significant percentage of the world’s population, especially when those most in danger from a rising right wing are those that a supposed left-winger should most want to protect. Sacrificing religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities on the altar of a better future for religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities doesn’t sit well with me.
Defending a revolution is not accelerationism. I have no idea how you got that from what they said, or generally where this idea of tankies being accelerationists comes from, it seems to be mostly something people make up about us. Accelerationism is stupid and reactionary.
Most tankies on lemmy spend a lot of time arguing for people to do things that lead to Trump bringing much of fascism to America. Not sure if you’d noticed.
Yes, we do believe in participating in bourgeois elections in the form of our own party, the reasons for which were laid out by Lenin ages ago. It has nothing to do with the modern concept of “accelerationism,” or wanting Trump to win. If I were an accelerationist, I’d be spoiled for choice, conditions will continue to decline under either candidate. Unfortunately, accelerationism doesn’t work, and declining conditions are the reason we got Trump in the first place.
In a race between Trump and a person who created the conditions that make people like Trump inevitable, I support neither, instead, I support a position of fixing the conditions that led to Trump’s emergence, which is the only possible strategy of stopping facism in the long run.
Whatever it takes including sending tanks after people because they don’t agree with your rule or am I missing something? Tankies is literally authoritarian or do you mean that your ideology is different and you want people to stop calling you that?
You have a choice between 1) capitalism that’s free for all, fuck the earth, fuck the workers, fuck the consumer, disband the EPA, OSHA, FTC, or 2) capitalism that’s regulated, with environmental protection, worker protections, minimum wages, workplace standards, product regulations, etc. The choice should be obvious.
I mean some might be fascists from like 8chan RPing as tankies. If I recall like a white republican congressman had a sockpuppet where he pretended to be a black guy.
You have to assume a certain amount of pro-trump stuff is straight up BS
Is that in the meme? In my opinion, Stalin was counter-revolutionary to Marxism:
Thus, as Trotsky long ago foresaw, the successes of planned economy at home and the advances of the revolution abroad sharpened the internal contradictions of Soviet society, bringing them to explosive political expression against the totalitarian regime of the bureaucratic oligarchy that usurped power following the death of Lenin
But I don’t reject what he was trying to achieve, as I don’t reject what Xi is trying in China. Don’t let Perfect be the enemy of Good.
Achieving absolute perfection may be impossible; one should not let the struggle for perfection stand in the way of appreciating or executing on something that is imperfect but still of value.
It can be. Capitalism as an economic system is efficient at raising industrial standards. Capitalism, as a tool for industrialization isn’t bad.
The problem with capitalism is that it strains social relations within the system by producing inequality of wealth distribution.
Technology-driven changes in production make new social forms possible, such that old social forms and classes become outmoded and displaced by new ones. Once, the dominant class were the land owning lords. But the new industrial system produced a new dominant class: the capitalists. source
Capitalism isn’t evil, it’s a tool. But the social relations capitalism creates is oppressive, and will be dismantled.
Tankies are not fascist, they are just willing to do whatever it takes to defend the socialist revolution.
If you’re willing to do “whatever it takes” including instituting fascism, you’re a fascist.
A socialist revolution by definition cannot be fascist, fascism is a far right movement and a socialist revolution is far left movement they both have authoritarian aspects, but are polar opposites as far as the goals of each movement. Socialism is for the benefit of all, fascism is for the benefit of the few.
Also I’m not an accelerationist and am voting for Biden, there is no where near enough class conciousness in the States for a Prolitariat Revolution to occur, but once that critical tipping point is reached I think Landlords and Billionaires should get the wall if they refuse to peacefully give up their hordes of wealth and property for the common good and that the revolution should be defended by any means necessary.
Fine, I will grant you, you aren’t fascists. Fascists hate people and want to kill them.
Tankies love “the revolution” more than the people they want to benefit. You may not see it as breaking a few eggs to make an omelette, but when you sit out an election where the fascists have a better than coin flip odds of seizing power, you are effectively letting them do that. And if you’re willing to let trans people die in camps for… what was it? “Enough class consciousness to build” then… well, fuck you and your revolution.
Like, also this reveals your total all encompassing privilege. Because look dude, if the fascists are putting trans people and immigrants into camps, do you really think they will spare you? Or do you just think you’re white enough that you’ll go under the radar until your “revolution” happens?
Also, fuck any revolution that involves taking up the tools and institutions of power. Those need to be ground to dust
Tankies are like NRA lunatics that dream with the chance to shoot somebody, but are scared to try alone.
I’m not sure about that; I think a lot of radicalizing discourse of late comes from the same place. Life under late stage capitalism is hard, and people are not sure why, nor can they articulate it. And they can tell it’s getting worse. Its a rife breeding ground for fascists, but when you hit leftist spaces, the tankies have the biggest net. You’ll be greeted by r/socialism, and find yourself in its web of subs. You might get pulled in by a Gravel Institute video (especially since you might be aware of Prager U and are interested in a video from the other end). It might be Chapo Trap House. And a lot of entry points into Tankie spaces are extremely compelling. For a lot of people, it will be the first anti Imperial talking points they will ever hear, with no liberal “but this is the greatest nation” filter.
I think this content is actually good and useful. The USA is guilty of myriad atrocities that its citizenry doesn’t know about, or the full depth, or doesn’t think about in order to get through their daily life.
But then after you get past that, the Tankie reveals himself to be “Anti Nato” without an cohesive political or moral position, in a very “politics as a team sport” kind of way. Russia is a moderately sized challenger to NATO, so they love it. It is also a successor state to a Red Empire. Ukraine is NATO making overtures to NATO, so they don’t like it. Israel is an imperialist NATO outpost, and they are committing a genocide, so of course they don’t like it, but so many tankies have shown their whole ass diving into Antisemitism, making fun of Jewish names, or Jewish influence on policy, that Ive exited most of the tankie spaces I was still in. Antizionism is not antisemitism, and they are antisemites.
But compare that to China, where they deny a genocide because it is being perpetrated by the largest challenger to NATO and still nominally communist state in the world, and you have your answer.
In fairness most people deny the genocide claims made by the anti=China think-tanks.
Opposition to NATO is a cohesive political position. We’re happy to explain our views when people are willing to hear us out, generally though, people just want to put nonsense into our mouths and then call us nonsensical.
As usual about accusations towards tankies, there’s no link. Show your receipts or stop making stuff up.
Why are you opposed to NATO?
Because NATO defends a system of neocolonialism that’s responsible for the bulk of global poverty.
I’m not going to try to read on your ideology, but I think you’re missing why people dislike tankies.
It’s not that they are against NATO, Israel, US, Ukraine… Or that they support Russia, China…
The problems are two:
Absolute belief that the world is black and white, and that their side is a paragon of virtue and quality of life, and human rights… Any and all criticism is “western propaganda”. This means anything they can’t deny is the others side fault “Zelensky is to blame for defending” and “Israel is to blame for attacking”.
Beyond just “excusing” the atrocities, they love them. Anybody who opposes them is a valid target. They might rationalize it in some cases, but in the end there are no innocent civilians unless they support them.
Edit: I’ve seem to have hurt some tankies feelings. Good.
1 is just your lack of reading/knowledge. 2 is simply describing war/conflict in general (e.g. dronies don’t see innocent civilians among their enemies)
EricAndreIlldrinktothat.avi
Lol what? Please tell me what exactly i said that implies im ok with trans folks and immigrants being rounded up in camps?
Silence Troll
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Russia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_North_Korea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communist_mass_killings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#:~:text=The Atlantic slave trade or,16th to the 19th centuries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies#:~:text=The colonial wars in the,due to famine and disease.
Them being bad. Does not make you good. It just makes you a hypocrite.
Such as justifying capitalist oligarchs that pretend to be socialists like Putin and Xi.
Actually, Putin doesn’t even pretend to be socialist. He’s pretty unashamedly capitalist. Tankies love the guy anyway.
Funny how the self-proclaimed vanguard of the radical left are just incoherent anti-western reactionaries wearing Marxism like a fig leaf, isn’t it? Like, I’m all for breaking down the current neoliberal capitalist hegemony, but you’ve gotta have a hole in your head to want to replace it with a literal crime syndicate masquerading as a government or an oppressive hyper-capitalist dictatorship with imperialistic ambitions.
What would you replace it with?
An interesting question, with (I think) a range of viable answers, in the angels-on-pinheads sense of pure theory. I personally think the sweet spot would be a broadly social-democratic system where basic industries are socialized to varying degrees, a regulated free market exists for novel industries and goods we would think of as “discretionary spending” items, and the market regulator has the capacity to move industries gradually from the latter category towards the former as they mature and become foundational to the society and economy.
How are Marxists-Leninists preventing Social Democracy? They aren’t organized, they have no viable political parties, as far as I know, they don’t even hold any state, or federal offices. It seems your complaints are with the neoliberals that are firmly in control.
Hate “tankies” all you want, but they are irrelevant to what is happening in America. This is punching down because people feel hopeless while facing a Trump re-election. It is unproductive and detrimental to building the unified coalition needed to fight fascism.
Are you confusing my argument that “tankies are useful idiots for authoritarianism whose actions have no relationship with their professed values” to imply that they’re somehow in the driver’s seat on anything? Or hell, that they’re even sincere Marxists?
Removed by mod
My guy… I am trying to point out here that the mentality of “I feel hopeless about the current situation, so I’m going to agitate to throw it to a guy whose whole platform is ‘I’m gonna make everything so much worse!’ because that will somehow ultimately make things better” is pushing for an outcome that puts literal millions of vulnerable people in actual, immediate, mortal danger. In fact, tankies and others on the left making the argument that there’s no difference between Biden and Trump can only be making that argument from a place of privilege, because for anybody belonging to the many vulnerable minority groups that the far right intend to target if Trump wins again (nevermind anybody that would be negatively impacted by the geopolitical effects of Trump abandoning NATO, among other things) the difference is fucking stark, and you’d have to be far removed from any of those groups to think otherwise.
Tankies don’t give a fuck about socialism.
Tankies, just like other fascists, are willing to do whatever it takes to gain and keep power, including pretending to support socialism
If I was to give this point of the benefit of the doubt (which, to be clear, I don’t) what you’re saying is that tankies are accelerationists. And I get it, to an extent – a comfortable middle class isn’t going to be concerned about the depredations of the right until they start to find themselves in the crosshairs – but the last time fascists got their way in the world, more than 73 million people died. Arguing, in effect, that the aftermath of another world war will be better for the survivors is a… challenging point to defend when it requires you to dismiss the deaths of a significant percentage of the world’s population, especially when those most in danger from a rising right wing are those that a supposed left-winger should most want to protect. Sacrificing religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities on the altar of a better future for religious, ethnic, and sexual minorities doesn’t sit well with me.
Defending a revolution is not accelerationism. I have no idea how you got that from what they said, or generally where this idea of tankies being accelerationists comes from, it seems to be mostly something people make up about us. Accelerationism is stupid and reactionary.
So is Donald Trump.
Yes, he is. Not sure what that has to do with the incorrect claim that tankies are accelerationists.
Most tankies on lemmy spend a lot of time arguing for people to do things that lead to Trump bringing much of fascism to America. Not sure if you’d noticed.
I haven’t noticed any tankies supporting Trump, no.
Oh, weird. In my feed, they’re always trying to convince left leaning folk not to vote for Biden so that Trump wins.
Yes, we do believe in participating in bourgeois elections in the form of our own party, the reasons for which were laid out by Lenin ages ago. It has nothing to do with the modern concept of “accelerationism,” or wanting Trump to win. If I were an accelerationist, I’d be spoiled for choice, conditions will continue to decline under either candidate. Unfortunately, accelerationism doesn’t work, and declining conditions are the reason we got Trump in the first place.
In a race between Trump and a person who created the conditions that make people like Trump inevitable, I support neither, instead, I support a position of fixing the conditions that led to Trump’s emergence, which is the only possible strategy of stopping facism in the long run.
Whatever it takes including sending tanks after people because they don’t agree with your rule or am I missing something? Tankies is literally authoritarian or do you mean that your ideology is different and you want people to stop calling you that?
You have a choice between 1) capitalism that’s free for all, fuck the earth, fuck the workers, fuck the consumer, disband the EPA, OSHA, FTC, or 2) capitalism that’s regulated, with environmental protection, worker protections, minimum wages, workplace standards, product regulations, etc. The choice should be obvious.
If they’re voting for Biden then why are they saying they won’t vote for Biden and are encouraging others not to vote for Biden? 🤔
I mean some might be fascists from like 8chan RPing as tankies. If I recall like a white republican congressman had a sockpuppet where he pretended to be a black guy.
You have to assume a certain amount of pro-trump stuff is straight up BS
Such as allying with the fascists so hard that Stalin was in talks to join the axis before Barbarossa.
Lol, which is why historically they have coalitioned with the right to murder the socialists before the socialists could take power.
Luke 23:34
Part my ramen and I’ll fight you, mate.
Stalinism wasn’t counter-revolutionary?
Is that in the meme? In my opinion, Stalin was counter-revolutionary to Marxism:
But I don’t reject what he was trying to achieve, as I don’t reject what Xi is trying in China. Don’t let Perfect be the enemy of Good.
You’re implying that more capitalism is progress.
It can be. Capitalism as an economic system is efficient at raising industrial standards. Capitalism, as a tool for industrialization isn’t bad.
The problem with capitalism is that it strains social relations within the system by producing inequality of wealth distribution.
Capitalism isn’t evil, it’s a tool. But the social relations capitalism creates is oppressive, and will be dismantled.