Years long delays and development hell for the Starliner; finally launches with significant but manageable propellant leaks. Meanwhile Starship is making cutting edge leaps and bounds in only its fourth test flight. Starship looks nearly ready to launch payloads.
True, Starship is taking longer than originally estimated… But these systems are not comparable at all, it’s comparing Apples and Oranges. Starship is a completely new category of launch platform with no direct comparison in history. Starliner is just a more modern capsule system.
The actual comparison to Starliner is Crew Dragon. The actual direct comparison, and funded from the same NASA contract set as Starliner. Crew Dragon has already made 13 successful crewed launches at nearly half the NASA contract budget.
Starship demonstrated a recoverable heavy-lift booster, aerodynamic reentry control, high-bandwidth reentry communications, and a successful test of flight software despite hardware failures, all while launching an incredibly heavy thing into space.
For comparison, the Starship can carry two dozen fully fueled V-2s into space.
I appreciate your pedantry. I was just going off a quick google for “weight of V-2 fully loaded” and “mass of Starship to orbit” because it’s been quite a busy day here.
You’re technically correct, and that’s the best kind. 🎖️
This is because of the fundamental structure of Boeing versus SpaceX.
Boeing has largely converted to corporate structure with lots of bean counters who look to commodify many of their projects when the industry in which they work in is absolutely not one that can be done as such. SpaceX is mostly engineers running the program who take each project as an engineering project and not an assembly line looking to be optimized.
This has lead to a lot of broken production communication. Because with Starliner, you might have Bob here that works specifically on getting some coolant line put in. But Bob has zero understanding of the grander picture here. Why is this coolant line being put in here? Then some module will go in over that line, again Sue only knows that she needs to install the module, not understanding anything before or after her step.
Then next thing you know, that coolant line’s vibration causes stress when up against the module that causes micro-cracks in the line causing leaks for helium gas. Because at no point did anyone see their part and how it worked with the whole. Nor was anyone along the way knowledgeable enough to know the ramifications of specific engineering designs.
Which might have you ask, what about the engineers? Again, it’s all compartments and budget constraints. Assumptions that are made about design that aren’t correct assumptions but no one knows they aren’t correct because some bean counter wants Mary the engineer to shave as much cost off her design for her module, not knowing how any of those redesigns will out with any other redesign that’s also being implemented.
Boeing from ground up is not built to handle the task they are being given. There’s too few engineers, too many corporate shills, and too many barriers between departments to facilitate the kind of communication that’s required to build the same thing SpaceX does for Dragon. And the thing is, Boeing will just deploy the bean counters to see if they can find the issue, when it’s the folks sending the corporate and the corporate themselves that’s the problem. They are never going to solve their issues.
At the same time, none of this goes unnoticed by Boeing employees. It’s pretty demoralizing watching hard work not work correctly. Then have the corporate pull everyone into a room and explain “what happened?” Then the finger pointing happens and nothing gets solved, rinse and repeat till your nerves are frayed beyond belief.
The employees and the engineers to get this kind of work done is there. There’s just this whole corporate layer that’s not needed that make everything 10,000% worse. Yes, there needs to be leadership, but the layers of operations that Boeing adds to the process is just people trying to enrich themselves.
Please explain.
Years long delays and development hell for the Starliner; finally launches with significant but manageable propellant leaks. Meanwhile Starship is making cutting edge leaps and bounds in only its fourth test flight. Starship looks nearly ready to launch payloads.
To be fair though, since we’re comparing them, Starship is also not exactly on schedule and it’s starting to result in canceled missions.
Musk also promised two Starships on Mars by 2023, they’re more than a little behind.
True, Starship is taking longer than originally estimated… But these systems are not comparable at all, it’s comparing Apples and Oranges. Starship is a completely new category of launch platform with no direct comparison in history. Starliner is just a more modern capsule system.
The actual comparison to Starliner is Crew Dragon. The actual direct comparison, and funded from the same NASA contract set as Starliner. Crew Dragon has already made 13 successful crewed launches at nearly half the NASA contract budget.
When has anything space ever been on schedule? SpaceX may be behind, but considering what they’re trying to do with Starship, it’s hardly unexpected.
Starliner successfully docked to a space station to deliver crew, a feat first achieved in 1971.
Starship flew into space and crashed, a feat first achieved in 1944.
Nobody broke any big milestones, both were just test flights, that are both horribly behind their promised time-frames.
I think that’s a reductive take of what starship just accomplished today but you’re certainly entitled to your opinion.
Starship demonstrated a recoverable heavy-lift booster, aerodynamic reentry control, high-bandwidth reentry communications, and a successful test of flight software despite hardware failures, all while launching an incredibly heavy thing into space.
For comparison, the Starship can carry two dozen fully fueled V-2s into space.
A bit pedantic, but unless I’m misinterpreting the Wikipedia page for the V2, I think it’s only 4 to 6 fully fueled V-2s based on the listed payload capacity of 100-150 tons US.
V-2 dry: 27,600 lb
Warhead: 2,200 lb
Propellant: 8,400 lb 75% ethanol / 25% water, 10,820 lb liquid oxygen
Total weight: ~24.5 tons US
I appreciate your pedantry. I was just going off a quick google for “weight of V-2 fully loaded” and “mass of Starship to orbit” because it’s been quite a busy day here.
You’re technically correct, and that’s the best kind. 🎖️
boeing cant get themselves off the strugglebus. they can barely accomplish what spacex is now considering day to day operations.
This is because of the fundamental structure of Boeing versus SpaceX.
Boeing has largely converted to corporate structure with lots of bean counters who look to commodify many of their projects when the industry in which they work in is absolutely not one that can be done as such. SpaceX is mostly engineers running the program who take each project as an engineering project and not an assembly line looking to be optimized.
This has lead to a lot of broken production communication. Because with Starliner, you might have Bob here that works specifically on getting some coolant line put in. But Bob has zero understanding of the grander picture here. Why is this coolant line being put in here? Then some module will go in over that line, again Sue only knows that she needs to install the module, not understanding anything before or after her step.
Then next thing you know, that coolant line’s vibration causes stress when up against the module that causes micro-cracks in the line causing leaks for helium gas. Because at no point did anyone see their part and how it worked with the whole. Nor was anyone along the way knowledgeable enough to know the ramifications of specific engineering designs.
Which might have you ask, what about the engineers? Again, it’s all compartments and budget constraints. Assumptions that are made about design that aren’t correct assumptions but no one knows they aren’t correct because some bean counter wants Mary the engineer to shave as much cost off her design for her module, not knowing how any of those redesigns will out with any other redesign that’s also being implemented.
Boeing from ground up is not built to handle the task they are being given. There’s too few engineers, too many corporate shills, and too many barriers between departments to facilitate the kind of communication that’s required to build the same thing SpaceX does for Dragon. And the thing is, Boeing will just deploy the bean counters to see if they can find the issue, when it’s the folks sending the corporate and the corporate themselves that’s the problem. They are never going to solve their issues.
At the same time, none of this goes unnoticed by Boeing employees. It’s pretty demoralizing watching hard work not work correctly. Then have the corporate pull everyone into a room and explain “what happened?” Then the finger pointing happens and nothing gets solved, rinse and repeat till your nerves are frayed beyond belief.
The employees and the engineers to get this kind of work done is there. There’s just this whole corporate layer that’s not needed that make everything 10,000% worse. Yes, there needs to be leadership, but the layers of operations that Boeing adds to the process is just people trying to enrich themselves.
This shitworker boeings. Sorry for ya, it sounds like you’ve been in the room for that pointless finger pointing.