Counter-counterpoint: Wayland is perfectly fine and production ready and has been for several years now, as long as you’re on AMD or Intel GPUs. The nVidia drivers are still undercooked and not ready for proper daily use.
My desktop crashed three times so far after updating gnome, linux kernel and nvidia driver two days ago. Not sure who’s the culprit, but I’ll blame nvidia by default.
Does multi-monitor sets work yet? Does it still randomly crashes when logging out? Does it have support for touch monitors already? Is Pipewire support ready? Is the Compose key still broken? Does it handle internationalization better now? Does accessibility software like on screen keyboards and screen readers already work on it?
I love Wayland, BTW, the more secure ecosystem is a net positive. But we can’t pretend it isn’t a lot of effort for something that has no tangible difference or immediate advantage for the end user, is extra work for developers and currently has a higher potential for errors, malfunctions and missing features that are taken for granted. Again, it’s a worthy endeavor to improve something that already works, but that also means there’s no rush. We can afford to wait.
It hasn’t done that for the 1.5 years that I have been using it for.
Is Pipewire support ready?
Yes. It’s so ready that even ubuntu uses it with wayland by default.
Does it have support for touch monitors already
Yes. It, in fact, has better support than x org.
Does it handle internationalization better now?
I don’t know about the problem with i18n but I don’t think this will affect most users.
Onscreen keyboard is still a pain to run but maliit works on kde+gnome/wayland. When was the last time you used wayland dude? I am not trying to sound this argumentative. If I do, my apologies but I have been listening to these same points being regurgitated over and over again when they have been fixed long ago.
Mostly all. At work we have to use teamviewer. Remote from Wayland to others work but you can’t connect from another client to a wayland client. Tried hoptodesk, ruskdesk etc. always the same.
Wayland integration with most DEs is absolutely incomplete regardless of Nvidia support. Wayland causes a ton of bugs every time I try to use it with KDE. There are still bugs even with GNOME like wine applications not working or screen sharing not working. So no I will not be using Wayland until it’s ready for everyday usage, which it isn’t right now.
He’s a thought. Stop being a power nerd, stfu and let people use what they want.
No, unless your use case is very specific (like being an artist needing color calibration/the software you use needs to position a multi-window setup etc. And color calibration is being actively worked on should have basic support in Plasma 6 according to Nate Graham) wayland is pretty much ready for daily use. It does have annoyances but they are getting actively fixed unlike X which is barely maintained and has glaring security issues. Fedora KDE has even decided to completely remove the X server on its 40th release.
You do know that the people who make Wayland are the exact same people who made and maintained X, right? Like, they are intentionally abandoning X in order to make Wayland, and eventually X will just be actually XWayland as compatibility to transition to only Wayland.
“Unlike X” doesn’t support your argument. If X11 is barely mantained, is on purpose. X11 and Wayland are not in competition, one is the rewrite of the former. They literally have no rush to push Wayland to main stage until it can do all that X11 does, including the annoying edge use cases. Because if X11 does it and Wayland doesn’t, then people would just continue to use X11. No brainer. They need more time, that’s fine, we can all do with being a bit more nicer and gentler. There’s no rush to push adoption
There is a rush because Red Hat isn’t interested in maintaining wayland anymore. Neither red hat nor Kde/gnome are interested in supporting x org in the long run. For wayland to get better and do the things it currently lacks at it needs a greater user base and that’s why there is a rush by major people in the linux community (kde and fedora for example). Right now its at that there are somethings that wayland can’t do that x org can and somethings that x org can do but wayland can’t. Since wayland is being developed actively and is the future it’s the obvious choice and x org has far more annoying use cases that are just not gonna get fixed “unlike wayland”. Majority of the users shouldn’t have any problems switching to wayland.
Most of those are perfectly ready for every day use without issues today. All are alternatives that bring new features and specific use cases, solving new problems, or solving old problems in innovative ways. Wayland is an active replacement to an existing technology, as the old X is expected to just not exist anymore at some point in the future. BTRFS isn’t intended to replace Ext4 wholesale, Flatpaks doesn’t intend to replace apt/pacman/etc., Pipewire does the same that Pulse and Jack but Pulse and Jack won’t stop existing. Adwaita existing doesn’t mean that you can’t use QT or GTK in your projects. That’s the difference.
As a result Wayland has the burden to actually fulfill and comply with all the features and use cases that X11 already does, with all the new security improvements on top. That’s a tall order, and until it can do so, it will be undercooked and under adopted, because they set themselves up to that bar, nobody but them is responsible for this. Is the ancient “let’s rewrite from scratch” trap that all dev teams fall on at least once in their lives. It isn’t impossible, but it always takes way longer than the optimist project managers anticipate.
Feature parity with X has never been the goal. Because most of X’s features are a legacy of the 80’ and dreadfully obsolete anyway.
I’m all for maintaining compatibility where it makes sense, but carrying over a 40 years old feature set just in case is the best way to prevent anything from moving forward.
Wayland can already do or is actively being developed for stuff that is relevant to modern systems: multi-monitor with different refresh rates and scaling, HDR etc. Stuff that X would never dream of.
Feature parity, maybe not, but use cases, definitely is the goal.
I’m just saying that if users have to run X compatibility portals to get basic functionality for every day tasks, then something is not fully baked yet. There’s nothing wrong with that. But apparently pointing it out is some sort of herecy.
I don’t think it’s heresy, but I always find it funny that an extremely vocal community shits on systemd for being a bloated tentacular monster shat should be abandoned, but praise X for being a bloated tentacular monster.
In a way, Wayland is much closer to the Unix Philosophy than X. It’s a display protocol, nothing more. Everything else should be implemented by the applications using this protocol. X has grown over the decades to include way too many features and edge cases.
Translation layers like XWayland are important and extremely useful for the transition period, but shouldn’t be taken as a sign that Wayland is not ready for prime time. If 10% the people shitting on Wayland had instead worked on adding Wayland functionality to their favorite apps (that includes you fuckers at nVidia), the transition would have ended years ago.
Counterpoint, Wayland is still undercooked and not ready for proper daily use.
Counter-counterpoint: Wayland is perfectly fine and production ready and has been for several years now, as long as you’re on AMD or Intel GPUs. The nVidia drivers are still undercooked and not ready for proper daily use.
My desktop crashed three times so far after updating gnome, linux kernel and nvidia driver two days ago. Not sure who’s the culprit, but I’ll blame nvidia by default.
Does multi-monitor sets work yet? Does it still randomly crashes when logging out? Does it have support for touch monitors already? Is Pipewire support ready? Is the Compose key still broken? Does it handle internationalization better now? Does accessibility software like on screen keyboards and screen readers already work on it?
I love Wayland, BTW, the more secure ecosystem is a net positive. But we can’t pretend it isn’t a lot of effort for something that has no tangible difference or immediate advantage for the end user, is extra work for developers and currently has a higher potential for errors, malfunctions and missing features that are taken for granted. Again, it’s a worthy endeavor to improve something that already works, but that also means there’s no rush. We can afford to wait.
Yes.
It hasn’t done that for the 1.5 years that I have been using it for.
Yes. It’s so ready that even ubuntu uses it with wayland by default.
Yes. It, in fact, has better support than x org.
I don’t know about the problem with i18n but I don’t think this will affect most users.
Onscreen keyboard is still a pain to run but maliit works on kde+gnome/wayland. When was the last time you used wayland dude? I am not trying to sound this argumentative. If I do, my apologies but I have been listening to these same points being regurgitated over and over again when they have been fixed long ago.
Remote tools aren’t working on Wayland.
deleted by creator
Mostly all. At work we have to use teamviewer. Remote from Wayland to others work but you can’t connect from another client to a wayland client. Tried hoptodesk, ruskdesk etc. always the same.
… for you.
I regularly do presentations for work and in Wayland I can’t play a video in a slide deck if presenting on an external display.
Wayland integration with most DEs is absolutely incomplete regardless of Nvidia support. Wayland causes a ton of bugs every time I try to use it with KDE. There are still bugs even with GNOME like wine applications not working or screen sharing not working. So no I will not be using Wayland until it’s ready for everyday usage, which it isn’t right now.
He’s a thought. Stop being a power nerd, stfu and let people use what they want.
No, unless your use case is very specific (like being an artist needing color calibration/the software you use needs to position a multi-window setup etc. And color calibration is being actively worked on should have basic support in Plasma 6 according to Nate Graham) wayland is pretty much ready for daily use. It does have annoyances but they are getting actively fixed unlike X which is barely maintained and has glaring security issues. Fedora KDE has even decided to completely remove the X server on its 40th release.
You do know that the people who make Wayland are the exact same people who made and maintained X, right? Like, they are intentionally abandoning X in order to make Wayland, and eventually X will just be actually XWayland as compatibility to transition to only Wayland.
Yeah I do know that. How does that affect my argument?
“Unlike X” doesn’t support your argument. If X11 is barely mantained, is on purpose. X11 and Wayland are not in competition, one is the rewrite of the former. They literally have no rush to push Wayland to main stage until it can do all that X11 does, including the annoying edge use cases. Because if X11 does it and Wayland doesn’t, then people would just continue to use X11. No brainer. They need more time, that’s fine, we can all do with being a bit more nicer and gentler. There’s no rush to push adoption
There is a rush because Red Hat isn’t interested in maintaining wayland anymore. Neither red hat nor Kde/gnome are interested in supporting x org in the long run. For wayland to get better and do the things it currently lacks at it needs a greater user base and that’s why there is a rush by major people in the linux community (kde and fedora for example). Right now its at that there are somethings that wayland can’t do that x org can and somethings that x org can do but wayland can’t. Since wayland is being developed actively and is the future it’s the obvious choice and x org has far more annoying use cases that are just not gonna get fixed “unlike wayland”. Majority of the users shouldn’t have any problems switching to wayland.
Lets apply that logic to everything in the linux eco system get rid of BTRFS,Flatpaks,Libadwaita,pipewire…
Most of those are perfectly ready for every day use without issues today. All are alternatives that bring new features and specific use cases, solving new problems, or solving old problems in innovative ways. Wayland is an active replacement to an existing technology, as the old X is expected to just not exist anymore at some point in the future. BTRFS isn’t intended to replace Ext4 wholesale, Flatpaks doesn’t intend to replace apt/pacman/etc., Pipewire does the same that Pulse and Jack but Pulse and Jack won’t stop existing. Adwaita existing doesn’t mean that you can’t use QT or GTK in your projects. That’s the difference.
As a result Wayland has the burden to actually fulfill and comply with all the features and use cases that X11 already does, with all the new security improvements on top. That’s a tall order, and until it can do so, it will be undercooked and under adopted, because they set themselves up to that bar, nobody but them is responsible for this. Is the ancient “let’s rewrite from scratch” trap that all dev teams fall on at least once in their lives. It isn’t impossible, but it always takes way longer than the optimist project managers anticipate.
Feature parity with X has never been the goal. Because most of X’s features are a legacy of the 80’ and dreadfully obsolete anyway.
I’m all for maintaining compatibility where it makes sense, but carrying over a 40 years old feature set just in case is the best way to prevent anything from moving forward.
Wayland can already do or is actively being developed for stuff that is relevant to modern systems: multi-monitor with different refresh rates and scaling, HDR etc. Stuff that X would never dream of.
Feature parity, maybe not, but use cases, definitely is the goal.
I’m just saying that if users have to run X compatibility portals to get basic functionality for every day tasks, then something is not fully baked yet. There’s nothing wrong with that. But apparently pointing it out is some sort of herecy.
I don’t think it’s heresy, but I always find it funny that an extremely vocal community shits on systemd for being a bloated tentacular monster shat should be abandoned, but praise X for being a bloated tentacular monster.
In a way, Wayland is much closer to the Unix Philosophy than X. It’s a display protocol, nothing more. Everything else should be implemented by the applications using this protocol. X has grown over the decades to include way too many features and edge cases.
Translation layers like XWayland are important and extremely useful for the transition period, but shouldn’t be taken as a sign that Wayland is not ready for prime time. If 10% the people shitting on Wayland had instead worked on adding Wayland functionality to their favorite apps (that includes you fuckers at nVidia), the transition would have ended years ago.