How the hell can we ignore the mindless murdering of innocent families. This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time
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Tigray, West Papua, Oromia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Western Sahara, Ituri, Xinjiang…
But that does not mean we should be silent on this latest. Really, we should be letting our representatives know we protest all of these things.
But people don’t protest these things. Most do not give a fuck. They are very invested though, when Jews are involved.
Probably because the west supports the genocidal country, and the U.S. is directly funding the genocide (in the 10s of billions, I believe). So, theoretically, if there is enough dissent from western civilians, the west could exert enough political and economic pressure on Israel to stop the genocide and end the apartheid (since Israel is so dependent on the west).
I admit, I’m a bit ignorant of the most of the other genocides listed above, but I don’t think the U.S. directly supported the genocidal groups to the same degree, and I think those genocides would’ve needed direct military action to end. In the case of Xinjiang, I don’t think the U.S. could do anything about that without causing great harm to itself.
The US was literally refuelling Saudi Aircraft mid-air so they could continue to bomb Yemen. I don’t think there was ever such a level of Involvement from any western country in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
300 000 - 400 000 deaths, btw. Probably an order of magnitude worse than the whole Israel conflict, in merely a decade.
How do you explain such an enormous level of difference in how much people care, if it’s not about the Jews?
@Syntha only if the Jewish people happen to be living in Israel. Western news media is way more interested in Israel than it is in almost any of the other countries I mentioned.
I think this is partly to do with the US because it seems to loom especially largely in their political consciousness.
People care more about things they know than things they never heard of. Someone posted a very informative documentary about West Papua over in worldwithoutus recently and it was interesting to see how many youtube comments on it were from people who had previously had no idea what was happening there! And now they know, they do care.
And continuous violence/genocide in Tigray region of Ethiopia. No one mass-protests those in NY, London or Berlin…
@burchalka no, they don’t, but although it didn’t get airtime, the US for example expressed opposition to it and leveled economic sanctions against Ethiopia for it.
Ethiopia isn’t a major “Ally” like Israel is.
I don’t think it’s difficult to understand that people feel moved by atrocities that are closer to them. The UK directly helped create present day Israel and the colonisation of Palestinian land. Our current government also supports Israel in their attack on Gaza, meaning our taxes are being used to fund weapons and aid the genocide that’s happening right now. Of course people are protesting here.
Does it mean people don’t care about Tigray? Or course not, but we have less direct influence over what’s happening there.
I don’t think that things are black and white here. But I have to agree a little.
Israel did become a nationalistic autocracy and has deeply corrupt leadership. Still, not doing anything when they were attacked on the scale Hamas recently did, would be just stupid.
The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum. Ideally under the amount of Israelis that died tho deflate grudges over time and show some degree of good will.
Then again Hamas has never shown such incentive. And differentiating between Palestine civilians and Hamas collaborators or members is not an easy binary task.
The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum
If they’re not trying to keep civilian casualties at a minimum, then why are so few Gazans dead considering the amount of ordinance at play?
We know why so few Israelis are dead, considering comparable amounts of firepower, but Gaza does not have the Iron Dome.
I’d their bombing was indiscriminate, surely they’d have killed more people, yeah? Do you think they’re just really inept, or do you think perhaps they might actually be trying not to kill civilians, and that’s just hard given the geography of the theater?
I absolutely agree that they can (looking only at military capability) wipe the floor with Palestine with indiscriminate bombardment in a few days.
But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic.
Military ability isn’t everything, geopolitics and market dependance exist. if they actually did that immediately, the response from international community wouldn’t be as mild as it’s now. So they actually can’t.
What I am saying is that there’s a full gradient of effort when it comes to avoiding or encouraging civilian casualties (and not giving a damn about them is in the middle).
The voices of Israeli ruling politicians before and after the start of this year’s conflict doesn’t exactly inspire a confidence that enough is being done to prevent them. Some used strategies even increase them unnecessarily with doubtful military gains.
Or perhaps people should consider that Hamas is using casualties among Palestinians to win the war against Israel. Because right now it seems like it is working pretty well.
Additionally, Gaza has 5855 people per square kilometre. I don’t know if people even realise this.
So bombing the shit out of the place is ok? Deaths are ok?
These people are in a pressure cooker, so increase the pressure, push them south and bomb the evac routes, don’t let fuel into hospitals or enough food in to Gaza.
Hamas are assholes, but when you start to justify civilian deaths, you’re no longer the good guy, yourself. They killed x, so we kill y.
This is looking increasingly like an annexation (especially of the north). Hamas aren’t in the West Bank, it’s run by Fatah, but Israel still rules it with an iron fist and keeps popping up more settlements. Moral actions under international law isn’t something that concerns them.
Where did I say that? I am not for Israel bombing Gaza. But the way how people argument for Gaza and the way the seem to ignore the problems connected to Hamas and Palestine in general is dangerous, in my opinion.
Hamas aren’t just “assholes”. This kind of rhetoric is horrific.
Are you aware of this history?
https://lemm.ee/comment/5396325
Israel is responsible for what Hamas became… You kill a one guy, and they replace with worse…
But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic
The word “enough” is not found anywhere in my posts, because I think they could, an should, do more.
“It isn’t genocide” and “civilian casualties are a tragic feature of every war” are not blanket support of the status quo.
I believe Israel believes they have done everything possible. They are undeniably going above and beyond to act with restraint. I still believe they could do more, especially by putting up a military hard point in the south for aid. I think this would be costly, and dangerous, but is both morally correct and something that would help pave the way for instilling peace after this war.
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To be fair the Muslim nations originally started all this.
I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.
So if terrorist government A kills civilians, it’s okay for murderous government B to take revenge by killing more civilians? Why does it matter where these people live, the only thing that matters is to stop killing them, depriving them of their freedoms and rights and hey, maybe even try to give them a happy life?
Government B’s primary goal is not to kill civilians. A’s is. This is not a numbers game, it matters why and in what context things are done.
Ends do not justify means. Killing civilians, especially children, is abhorrent.
Yes war is indeed bad. That’s why Israel tried to avoid war.
Youcve counted and compared the deaths of Israelis to Palestinians, plus considered the Palestinian children locked up with no rights or appeals etc. for at least 3 generations?
Is this about numbers?
“I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.”
For you, it indeed sounds like a tit-for-tat kill-for- kill system. If we were doing that, which we aren’t and shouldn’t be, then there’d need to be a lot more dead Israelis to balance the playing field. Obviously you can see why that is a horrendous idea.
Well, if we’re going to the numbers, do remind me, how many Israeli civilians have died due to IDF using them as human shields? And what does that very low number tell you?
This is one of the many reasons why it’s completely pointless to play the numbers game in this war.
Dude, I’m agreeing. You’re the one who’s making it out to be some sort of tit for tat kill for kill for scenario.
Well let’s agree to wtf is this discussion anyway then
This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time
What’s your opinion on why Israel is so bad at actually achieving genocide?
I mean take a look at this shit. Does this look like failing to you?
Yes
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You mean Hamas attack on Israeli citizens right? Just to clarify
You mean you ignore the atrocities, apartheid and land theft that built up to this? The palestinians just naturally and gave up their homes and rights for a few generations?
So what’s beautiful about this is that even if I were to agree with you about whether or not Israel is an apartheid state, and if there is theft of land or not - and make no mistake those things are serious and evil when true - then they are still very far from genocide, I believe the intent of that comment by “mindless murdering”, which is the clear open objective and stance of Hamas.
then they are still very far from genocide,
No it’s not. There are actual pogroms going on in the West Bank right now.
You can’t commit apartheid outside of your country. That’s not what “apartheid” means. Arabs in Israel have full citizenship and proportionate representation in government.
Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I’ve read that they’ve dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.
Hamas doesn’t stop murdering innocent civilians, deliberately targets civilians and avoids military targets, and then hides behind civilians.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, but can’t do so as Hamas hides behind civilians. Options are to allow Hamas to butcher the innocent, or go after Hamas with civilian casualties.
I don’t like it, but the extermination of Hamas is necessary. The Gaza civilians are in a terrible position if they withdraw their support of Hamas, Hamas will just execute them. It’s shitty, and terrible, but this is all on Hamas and only highlights the need for their removal.
This is “war on terror” levels of idiocy.
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
If you are British or American, how do you feel about that?
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
Yes. Reckless bombing of civilians is always evil.
I’m always flabbergasted when people bring up other heinously awful things as if it’s some kind of gotcha.
Genuine ask - no BS or anything here. Has anyone else seen like the same three posters on this sublem bombard it with some of the most hilariously pro-Hamas biased content I’ve ever seen? Like, effectively personal blogs being passed around here as literal legitimate news being reported. It’s WILD to see in real time.
What about a cease-fire’s particularly pro-hamas? Cease-fire means both directions.
A ceasefire where Hamas gets to keep their hostages is a huge Hamas victory. Advocating for something which gives Hamas a huge victory will be interpreted by some as support for Hamas.
These demonstrations are full of Palestinian flags, without an Israeli one in sight. It’s hard to argue against them being partisan
If the goal is not to harm your own hostages, you wouldn’t be using bombs, which is real using very heavily right now. It makes a literally no sense.
I don’t understand how your comment relates to mine. Do you believe that because I consider a cessation of hostilities where Hamas keeps their hostages a victory for Hamas, that I mean to say that rescuing hostages is the scope of Israel’s campaign?
It clearly isn’t. Israel intends to destroy Hamas and are appallingly callous about the collateral damage they cause in the process
What’s the last cease fire that wasn’t broken by regular rocket fire from Gaza?
The Hamas active members can have time to hide and reset for another attack if there is a cease fire. They’ll refortify the hospitals and schools they use to hide, as well as gather civilans for shields. They can set up booby traps for a ground invasion into Gaza.
Well then, best just carpet bomb all of gaza then right?
How bad do you think Israel is at carpet bombing? Honestly, multiple weeks of carpet bombing, by any modern estimate, should dismantle all of Gaza. That very demonstrably has not happened.
So are they really, really bad at it or are they not attempting it?
Have you not seen the satellite images?
Yes, of course I have. I am aware of what wars do.
Then you would see the absurdity of your statement.
Please re-read my comment lmao. :p
What you want to do is drive hamas out and destroy and fill all the tunnels they made. Then when you start letting people.back in you try and filter out any hamas or pro hamas people. It be kinda like of the usa had a working southern border… or like how the usa and Canada birder works
Oh, I’m sure the goddamn million Palestinians who have just been kicked out of their homes and seen it flattened to the ground will not have any particular ill will against Israel. All of them will be perfectly subservient saints who will offer the other cheek when Israel keeps pouring out settlements in their backyards.
As opposed to the Palestinians who just attacked them ?
What do you think the down side is for the Israelis? They can flatten Gaza and destroy hamas arsenals and under ground network and kill a bunch of them setting back any attacks by years or decades.
Or in your mind they can just not do anything and keep getting attacked. Then each time they do nothing , hamas will get bolder and create larger attacks and take more hostages.
Terrorists come kill your family. You call the police, and someone replies “there’s been enough violence.” Meanwhile the terrorists continue to advocate for killing your extended family as well as numerous other families, and you know these threats are credible because they continue trying
How sensible is that, to you?
So this is definitely justifying:
- expelling 1.5Mln from their homes
- carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods
- restricting the access to clean drinking water, electricity, food and fuel for the general population
- preventing people fleeing the war zone
- Blocking humanitarian aid to enter
- bombing areas that they told the civilian population is safe
- preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
- Cutting the access to the internet and telephone, so people are not even able to call an ambulance or check how their loved ones are fairing.
- While actively refusing to admit that with their actions they have caused a humanitarian catastrophe, despite what UN, Red Crescent and I don’t know how many more international agencies are saying.
- Refusing to even call for a humanitarian pause to let some needed aid enter the enclave
while killing 10 times more civilians, babies, kids and women and causing immensely more suffering for the innocents.
You can’t be a genius to see that one evil doesn’t give you the right or the moral high ground to commit even greater evil.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
Demonstrably not happening, as there are aid convoys in south gaza right now.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
I think this is really shitty of Egypt, Jordan, etc to do, yes. Israel and the US tried to get them to take refugees. Took forever to even get them to send aid.
The rest is pretty typical of urban combat, so no, not genocide. If you want civilians to not die in an urban warzone, you ask them to leave the warzone. Urban fighting is ludicrously dangerous.
Are you kidding. How many trucks have been allowed. Do you think they are enough?!? We are talking about 2.5 Mln people.
You are writing all this from the comfort of your own house, people there don’t have a roof over their heads. You can’t even fathom what conditions they are living in. Are they all deserve to suffer?
How many more civilians need to die to condemn Israel? 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M?
How many trucks have been allowed.
It’s weird you think Israel is the cause here
Are they all deserve to suffer?
I would prefer none of this happen, but Hamas does not value human life. It’s truly tragic.
I find it very strange that your inference is that I don’t care.
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I would also leave this here:
Karim Khan said that impeding aid deliveries for Gaza could constitute a war crime and that there must be an effort by Israel to ensure vital supplies are allowed in.
Prior to this, some 500 trucks carrying aid and other goods had entered the territory every day.
So to put things into perspective, for 3 straight weeks only 117 trucks carrying humanitarian aid entered the enclave.
A division of the Israeli military responsible to overseeing civilian affairs in Gaza (COGAT) said this morning that it would allow increased supplies through the Rafah crossing in the coming days.
Not to mention that the same officials are constantly trying to downplay how grave the situation there is. And today’s looting of humanitarian supplies only comes to prove that people there are really desperate!
They let a token number of trucks in to give them a talking point… just like you used it now.
70 trucks were let in since October 7th. The UNRWA had something like 200-500 trucks going in daily before the war…
So normally there would have been 11,000 truck deliveries for humanitarian aid in this window, now there are only 70… 0.6% of need is satisfied, prewar need at that…
All to give you a talking point.
Yeah, they let the aid trucks in, the bombed the aid after it had been delivered.
That is a gross misrepresentation.
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This is disgusting and even though I don’t know you, I know you’re better than this kind of comment.
Innocent people died.
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This comment is wholly uncalled for regardless of any mitigating circumstances
I’m sorry if you are offended by facts. You can always take comfort in the fake narratives created by US and European MSM.
The IDF killed its own citizens on October 7th. This is a statement of fact backed by survivors. So whoever deleted my comment stop censoring the truth please
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
It’s less the factual nature and more the presentation and what is implied.
What do you mean presentation?
Trying to diminish multiple massacres with a story about friendly fire, as if those things are at all the same.
You’re a bad person and I’m glad I’ll never see you again
So every defender of human rights is pro-Hamas according to your twisted logic.
Last night the families released a statement calling the intense bombing on Friday “the worst of all nights”, due to the uncertainty of the safety of their loved ones during IDF strikes.
And guess what, people on the other side of the fence are saying it, now imagine going through this personally with all your family. Not able to reach your loved ones, without food, Internet, or electricity. I am sure if you go through this hell you would change your tune
Generally you use the most firepower directly before committing ground troops, so yes I would expect last night to be the worst night.
I don’t have an eye got usernames, but I did notice some really dodgy websites getting posted and people, as they are, just upvote on how much they like the article title rather than the contents ot even the surrouding information.
Considering the other big news aggregators (on Reddit, other Lemmy instances) have articles who’s entire source list is “some guy in Telegram” or “unnamed soldier” or “obviously doctored audio,” what’s the complaint exactly?
FWIW, just because you don’t recognize a news source does not make it invalid. Contrary to popular belief, the US isn’t the only country in the world with news outlets.
Also, this is the fucking Independent. Take your FUD elsewhere.
Great to see the world has some people of conscience.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The United Nations said the move would prevent aid from reaching Palestinians trapped inside the bombarded territory, with Tel Aviv continuing to fire air strikes on the 25-mile stretch.
Elizabeth El-Nakla and her husband Maged travelled to the region before the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, in which Palestinian militants killed 1,400 people, and have been trapped since Tel Aviv’s subsequent retaliation.
“We support Israel’s right to self defence, in line with IHL (international humanitarian law), and continue to push for the protection of Palestinian civilians,” Mr Cleverly tweeted.
Ahead of the weekend, Kyle Gordon, who is leading the force’s command team, told a press briefing: “If somebody is calling for jihad specifically against Israel the officers will intervene, gather the information, report it back into us and we’ll be working with colleagues (from counter-terrorism) in relation to what the best course of action is.”
The head of the Crown Prosecution Service told The Daily Telegraph: “In any case arising from the current protests, there needs to be a very careful consideration of the actual circumstances in which something is said, or a flag is waved or actions are taken.”
The issue is causing splits in the Labour Party, with Imran Hussain, shadow minister for the New Deal For Working People and MP for Bradford East, breaking ranks to demand a ceasefire.
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London is the fair town for terrorists worldwide.
how is a protest march in a city, on an island, in a different continent going to do anything in Gaza?
Are you asking how protest works in general? The place doesn’t matter much. Do you want them to protest in gaza? They can’t go there
The UK is one of Israel’s strongest supporters after the US, so pressure from them can do a lot.
why would the UK government care what it’s citizens want? I suppose there’s a first time for everything but I rather suspect that it wont be this time
Sometimes, solidary is better than nothing when you feel powerless.
It’s not, but generally in democracies, people protest to let their own government and their fellow citizens know how they feel about an issue.
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When the issue is domestic, they are generally seeking a policy change.
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When the issue is foriegn, they usually hope to influence their own country’s foriegn policy stance/actions on that issue.
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Good question, popular opinion demonstrated against Apartheid and collective punishment gets democratic governments to enforce sanctions, and put economic pressure on the violating country. This is how south african apartheid ended, through slow economic and sanction pressure.
Because Hamas tactics include an information war to win sympathies.
With a lot of effort, we can hope to make London as bad as Gaza?
You’re going to bring in Nazi SS Storm troopers, build a wall around it, and then kill all the native Londoners?
Nope, just keep bringing in another 500K-600K per year, of illegal immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries, and they’ll take care of it…
