With the Voice to Parliament Referendum date announced to be October 14 2023, this thread will run in the lead up to the date for general discussions/queries regarding the Voice to Parliament.
The Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples
129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
there shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice; the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples; the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
Past Discussions
Here are some previous posts in this community regarding the referendum:
- The Voice referendum official Yes/No pamphlets
- Linda Burney says there is everything to gain and nothing to lose by supporting the Voice
- Families distressed after ‘highly misleading’ video used by anti-Voice campaigners goes viral
- The Indigenous Voice to Parliament – separating fact from fiction | 7.30
- 10 questions about the Voice to Parliament - answered by the experts
- The yes pamphlet: campaign’s voice to parliament referendum essay – annotated and factchecked
- Fact-checking for the “No” referendum pamphlet was not compulsory
Common Misinformation
- “The Uluru Statement from the Heart is 26 Pages not 1” - not true
Government Information
- Referendum question and constitutional amendment
- voice.gov.au - General information about the Voice
Amendments to this post
If you would like to see some other articles or posts linked here please let me know and I’ll try to add it as soon as possible.
- Added the proposed constitutional amendment (31/08/2023)
- Added Common Misinformation section (01/07/2023)
Discussion / Rules
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Please continue posting news articles as separate posts but consider adding a link to this post to encourage discussion.
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15 years of consultation with aboriginal commmunities across all of Australia.
Developed, vetted and approved by practicing constitutional lawyers.
Good enough for me.
I find it so frustrating when I hear NO campaigners say a constitutive is not required. Politicians should just do their job and it’s easy to consult ATSI people, no voice required.
They literally did that. Consulted ATSI people, as part of a plan to change things, with all major parties on board. They are showing how much they don’t listen by saying that they don’t need the voice to listen? Aaaghhh.
No voters are low-key racists, I 100% believe this- they hide behind some weak arguments to pretend they’re progressive, but deep down they are just bigoted at heart. at worst this Yes vote does nothing, at best it changes for the people the well-being and future of indigenous australians. This whole throwing water on the fire instead of using a fire truck is just obfuscation, and they’d also find a reason to vote No for the fire truck as well.
There are valid reasons to vote no. However most no voters seem to jump on all the excuses to try and justify their stance. Even when two reasons are contradictory.
Then complain that the YES side call them racist. I do think they don’t consider themselves racist. They think their opinions are just ‘common sense’ rather than discrimination. Or that the injustices are too long ago, ignoring current injustice.
The way I see it is we have 3 options. The voice. No change Another unnamed option.
They are against the voice. They recognize, for the most part, that there is injustice, but have no alternative path. To me, that’s intellectual dishonesty. If you recognize there is a problem, you either propose a solution or go with the proposed current actions to help, or accept status quo. A nonvite is a vote for status quo, but with added divisiveness sue to attempts made to actually have change, that are now rejected.
You can be pro-Voice and anti referendum. The issue is that the proposed amendment is offensively ineffectual.
Claiming that the progressive NO has no path forward is intellectually dishonest. Just because you don’t know what it is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Yet, given an opportunity here, you failed to enlighten anyone.
I’ve explained extensively why the referendum rubbish elsewhere in the thread. I can’t enlighten you if you refuse to pull your head out of where the sun doesn’t shine.
Yes, you’ve given your spurious reasons for a no. Still no proposed solution instead.
Maybe if you spent less time insulting people and more time being constructive, you’d see better than the proverbial head up an ass.
There are valid reasons to vote no.
Such as? I’ve never seen one and I think if there were valid reasons the No campaign would be spreading the word far and wide.
Not recognising one race or people so as to preserve equality under the constitution is one. I don’t agree as the history and inequality no present outweighs it.
Having a separate process, different to the voice is a valid argument, however the NO side aren’t proposing one.
If you think the status quo is acceptable, that there is sufficient resources available and they are properly allocated, then that is a valid reason to vote no. Again, I disagree.
They are valid, in the sense that they follow a degree of logic and make grammatical sense. Otherwise no.
“Everyone who doesn’t agree with me is a racist even the Aboriginal Australians”
Yes voters are one who want to enshrine racism in constitution. Any mention of race is racism, but majority is so brainwashed to fail to understand it.
This is my take.
I really don’t know anything about the, nor the issues faced by indigenous Australians, nor the best way to address them. This just isn’t relevant to my day to day.
That said, if I made a list of people who’s opinions I respect and polled them I’m sure it would be overwhelmingly “yes”.
A summary of my viewpoint:
I am enormously sick of the no campaign brigading every discussion with terrible arguments in bad faith.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed. Similarly, the law is my degree. I’ve spent five years of my life studying it, and although I’m not a graduate yet (two units to go), I’d think I’d know more about this shit than Joe from bumfuck nowhere on Facebook.
There is no case for a no vote. None whatsoever. The change would not grant special rights to Indigenous Australians. It has been repeatedly explained by both lawyers and politicians. You can read the change yourself. It has to be a constitutional change, because that protects it from being outright removed by successive governments, which is the very thing that happened to the previous body that performed this role. By definition, it is not racist, as racism refers to negative treatment on the basis of race or ethnic background, and not differing treatment. This is one of three steps proposed by Indigenous Australians towards reconciliation, and isn’t the endpoint. If it fails, it will be the endpoint.
When the colonisers arrived, Indigenous Australians outnumbered colonisers. Now, they make up just 2.5% of the population. We are driving them to extinction. If this fails, by the time we get around to trying again, it is likely the genocide will have all but been completed.
Ethically and morally, a yes vote is the only choice. Legally, it is the best choice for change.
How do you interpret the part at the end that refers to “powers”?
Also, just curious, have you studied constitutional law in your degree yet?
G’day, sorry for the long wait.
To preface: I have studied constitutional law (was a lockdown subject for me). I’m not going to claim to have the understanding of either the High Court or the Constitutional Lawyers I’ve encountered, and bear in mind IANAL, and nothing I say here constitutes a true legal interpretation.
Based on both other legislation where the term “powers” has been used, as well as the context in which it is used in the proposed wording, I read it as referring to any abilities it may rely on in order to make its representations. I couldn’t tell you what these may be, as that would depend on the Government of the day, but my expectation would be they’d be related to information gathering, decision-making (including whether a chair would exist and veto power), whistleblowing, and those kinds of things.
The wording is purposefully very vague of course - which serves a few purposes. The big one is about making it hard for oppositional forces to take it to the High Court to claim whatever controversial action its taking is unconstitutional; there’ve been a few cases like that that just end up wasting the court’s time, along with tax payer money. Similarly, keeping it vague gives plenty of room to legislation to define its limitations, and allows for evolution as the needs of the community change.
Sorry for the essay mate, tl;dr: did study Constitutional law, had a great teacher! Powers is kept vague, but I would argue it refers to abilities. Vaguery is a good thing in a constitution because it gives room for the law to adapt and evolve.
Even if “powers” implied devolution which is just insane, this would be with the consent of Parliament.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed.
Lidia Thorpe? ex-Greens senator who split because she is against the referendum?
I’m still not sure I get Lidia’s arguments tbh. I agree with her on treaty and I honestly don’t know why (other than being a pack of racists) we haven’t implemented the recommendation of the royal commission into indigenous deaths in custody, I’m just not sure that voting the voice down is a good move or would even help get those things done. It could make Australia wake up to its past by giving it a shock, but just (maybe more) likely the referendum failing will empower racists.
I’m just not sure that voting the voice down is a good move or would even help get those things done.
Would voting up a powerless voice help get them done? It would be used as a way to put off further action. “What? You don’t need a treaty. We gave you a Voice to parliament last decade.”
Have you read the Statement from the Heart? I just posted it to the thread if you want to check it out. I have no idea why it isn’t central to the discussion, because the statement is literally where all this is coming from.
The Voice is the first step towards a treaty. That’s basically what Makarrata means in English. If a treaty were to happen today, who would it be with? Which of the hundreds of tribes across the land should be chosen to represent aboriginal peoples? We all need a body representing first nations to open these dialogues with.
I have read the Uluru statement. It asks for a voice that is enshrined in the constitution. The referendum does nothing to enshrine the voice in the constitution. The wording of the proposed amendment leave all the details of how the voice is implemented up to government and subject to its whims.
What good is a voice that is subject to parliament? If the government of the day can stack it with sycophants or gut it at a whim they can negotiate a treaty on the worst possible terms. The process of how the voice is structured, chosen, and its powers need to be enshrined in the constitution and the proposed amendment does not do that.
The wording of the proposed amendment leave all the details of how the voice is implemented up to government and subject to its whims
You’ve alluded to this twice in this thread now. Here’s the proposed change to the Constitution:
Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples
129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
- There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice;
- The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples;
- The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
Are you saying item 3 is the problem?
No, they’re saying item 1 is the problem (with regards to what you quoted). What The Voice actually looks like won’t be decided until after it passes the referendum. “A body” could mean absolutely anything. We have suggestions and theories, but all of this still needs to be officially worked out.
Just to point out, racism does not have to be negative treatment. Racism just has to be inequitable. The proposed amendment creates a system for Indigenous Australians, which is unavailable to other Australians. That is inequitable.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
frankly im a little sick of the ‘no’ side claiming the Voice will both do nothing, but simultaneously cause some sort of irrepairable divide that will destroy the nation.
And every. single. cooker. is loudly vocally on the No side. Which makes it an easy choice for me
Found this which made me lol a bit
Insulting people and labelling people with whom you disagree doesn’t foster good discussion and only emboldens their position
Tbh dude this thread is going to be a shitshow.
The alternative is a bunch of little shitshows to keep track of, so this is somewhat easier to moderate
Ah, a contained disaster. Fair point.
Can you put the actual amendment in the post and ask people to read it before debating? It seems funny to have a discussion about something without having it there in front of us.
There is a link in there but I can copy into the whole thing
those people are more than happy to do the same. Wanting a respectful response in return? lol no
Doesn’t matter: you should aim to be better than them
edit: dont worry just thinking out loud, my intention wasnt to derail the thread and on thought this thread should be a place for discussing the voice not the riff raff. apologies
Thanks for asking for feedback. The bit about cookers is worded a bit vaguely in such a way that it is unclear whether the converse is implied, that is, every vocal no voter is a cooker or a significant portion of vocal ‘no’ voters are cookers. And to be honest I do agree with that - just look at The Guardian’s fact checking of the official ‘No’ essay, most of it was made up. It’s just that using the term ‘cooker’ is probably not the most respectful way to convey that
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
Come on, this is just FUD, plain and simple.
If the voice does turn out to be a white elephant, then we should have the flexibility to remove it and try again with a different model. I’m 100% on board with the Government of the day legislating a body, but I don’t believe it should be in the constution, and I doubt I’m the only one.
Using inflammatory language is not the way to try and convince people one way or the other.
You mean how Howard removed atsic and implemented his 10 point plan? Yeah that was great…
Can’t we just have another referendum to remove it if it’s that bad?
Of course that’s an option in theory - but in practice, referendums are incredibly expensive operations, not to mention generally damaging to public discourse of other issues.
Most Governments would prefer to just reduce any funding for the body down to the bare minimum required, and have it sit impotently to the side, rather than front up and say ‘yeah nah, this didn’t work, so here’s another big money spend to fix the constitutional issue we created while we think of something else’.
But but that logic, it’s either not bad enough to be worth removing, or the government of the day has no real need to remove it.
Ergo, it being in the constitution is not really a problem.
The government only has no real need to remove it if they’re happy with the status quo regarding inequality - they can still point to the (presumingly failed) body and say ‘we tried’ and not bother with something better.
and removed next term when the next quasi fascist gets elected.
nothing in the referendum stops that if you actually read it.
this is inequitable
Not what equity means. Equity refers to equal access to the same opportunities. Put simply, due to their post-genocide, White Australia Policy and “Breeding out the Black” (real campaign) numbers, Indigenous Australians completely lack representation in Parliament. Therefore they lack access to the opportunities your average Australian (regardless of race) has. An Indigenous Voice to Parliament will make things more equitable, not less, as it will provide access to the same opportunities of representation that the rest of us have already.
Indigenous Australians already have The National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA), employing 1,023 full time staff and a budget of $285M each year specifically for the purpose to “lead and influence change across government to ensure Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have a say in the decisions that affect them.”
The very detailed annual reports and corporate plans define their activities, plans, and successes fairly well: https://www.niaa.gov.au/who-we-are/accountability-and-reportingCan we accept that this agency is providing equal (if not more) access to the same opportunities?
There are several differences between the National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA) and the proposed Voice to Parliament, according to constitutional and legal experts. Firstly, the NIAA is an internal agency accountable to the executive government. The proposed Voice, on the other hand, is an independent body that sits outside of both the executive and parliament. Secondly, the NIAA can only advise the executive government, while in contrast the proposed Voice can advise both the executive and parliament. Thirdly, the NIAA is not an entirely Indigenous organisation, whereas the proposed Voice would be composed entirely of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Lastly, the NIAA can be abolished by an executive order, while the proposed Voice would have its existence guaranteed by being enshrined in the Constitution.
Your claim that the NIAA serves the same purpose has been debunked many times. As an internal government agency, it has no independence. Furthermore it only has 22% Indigenous representation among its staff. The Voice would be a completely independent and 100% Indigenous voice, free from white bias.
The NIAA is just another example of white people making decisions on behalf of black people, which we already know achieves nothing other than the waste of taxpayer dollars.
The NIAA facilitated the entire Voice referendum proposal to the government, as detailed in their 272-page report in July 2021.
This process, run by the NIAA, involved 115 community consultation sessions in 67 communities and more than 120 stakeholder meetings around the country with over 9,400 people and organisations participating in the consultation process led by NIAA co-design members.Are you suggesting that this was a waste of taxpayer dollars and “just another example of white people making decisions on behalf of black people”?
run by the NIAA
Wrong. There were 3 co-design groups and 52 group members, which included representatives of the NIAA. The NIAA did not “run” the consultation process. If you haven’t bothered to read your own sources, don’t share them. Also, please look up the definition of “facilitated”.
It’s fairly obvious that you haven’t read the document and are just trying to test whether I have done the same.
Page 241 details the 3 co-design groups as follows:
- The National Group
- The Local & Regional Group
- The Senior Advisory Group
The Senior Advisory Group membership (p241):
The Minister will invite individuals to participate in the Senior Advisory Group. The Senior Advisory Group will include 2 co-chairs, Professor Tom Calma AO and Professor Dr Marcia Langton AM. The Senior Advisory Group will comprise around
20 members as determined by the Minister. The Senior Advisory Group will have a majority of Indigenous Australians who have a spread of skills and experience, and those with extensive experience and ability to work strategically across the co-design process. Consideration will also be given to achieving a balance of: gender; representation across jurisdictions; and the
urban, regional and remote spectrum, as much as possible.The National Group membership (p244):
The Minister will invite individuals to participate in the National Group, following consultation with the Senior Advisory Group, and appoint a co-chair from among the Indigenous non-government members. The second co-chair will be a senior official from the NIAA. The 2 co-chairs will also be key contacts and representatives for the National Group. They will lead engagement with the Senior Advisory Group and Local & Regional Group, Minister and the Government at key points, as required.The Local & Regional Group membership (p246):
The Minister will invite individuals to participate in the Local & Regional Group, following consultation with the Senior Advisory Group, and appoint a co-chair from among Indigenous non-government members. The second co-chair will be a senior official from the NIAA.Facilitate: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facilitate
As defined in the details of each co-design group:
All secretariat, logistical and administrative support will be provided by NIAA. This will include planning, logistics, travel arrangements and meeting support.
The co-chair for each group is a senior official from the NIAA.
Each group can request technical assistance, if needed, through the NIAA.More details on how the groups operated, their purpose, activities, scope, timeframes, as established by the NIAA’s process is defined in pages 241-247.
If you don’t understand all of the above to be the definition of the word “facilitated”, it brings into question whether you would under the wording of the Voice’s proposed constitutional amendment.
Indigenous Australians completely lack representation in Parliament
There are Indigenous Australians in Parliament so this cannot be true.
it will provide access to the same opportunities of representation that the rest of us have already
I get a vote and that’s it, Indigenous Australians also get a vote.
Sounds like the same opportunity for representation to me.
These parliamentarians don’t necessarily represent or advocate for Indigenous Australians as they represent everyone in their electorate. Anthony Albanese doesn’t just represent the Italians in his electorate, he represents everyone. That’s how majority based systems work. The majority based system is a problem when you have a minority group who are so disadvantaged and have limited ways of having their voices heard. Especially when it’s about policies and laws that affect them specifically.
which is unavailable to other Australians
Perhaps you should look up just how many existing governmental advisory bodies there are that have zero relation to the indigenous population. Maybe we should go and revoke them, you know, for equality
The changes needed can be achieved without a Constitutional amendment.
Australia has tried doing it without a referendum multiple times over our history, every single time they started promising and then fizzled out into nothing.
By putting it in the constitution, there would have to be a new referendum in order to undo the changes.
I think you need to look up the definition of equity with regards to human rights. You have it completely the wrong way around.
it is not necessarily inequitable. it is unequal. but it would only be inequitable if you think that the indigenous populations of Australia have been up until this point been treated on even footing with colonizers.
Yep and I’m not looking forward to the sort of bullshit arguments people will espouse in opposing a truth telling process.
That has been tried in the past, more than once, by both left and right wing parties. It failed miserably every time.
For me, this referendum boils down to exactly the same pair of questions as for the same-sex marriage postal survey in 2017:
- Does this affect me adversely? (answer: no, it doesn’t)
- How does this benefit those that want it? (answer: for the better)
Easy.
I have family diving into this and I listen here and there. A concern one has mentioned is the aggressive stance by Lidia Thorpe. Without a doubt she will want full sovereignty over any other race.
In a June 2022 interview, Thorpe said she was there to ‘infiltrate’ the Australian parliament and that the Australian flag had “no permission to be here”.
So yes, the voice can be used in good ways I’m sure, but, depending on your stance, Lidia will be trying to use it for her own means as well.
And having said that, maybe eventually these times will pass, Lidia’s will take over, and maybe that’s good? It was and probably should be the aboriginal people’s country to fully control in the end.
But Lidia’s against the Voice, so not sure how that line of thought plays out.
The fact is, the Voice won’t have the power to create legislation or veto Parliament, or even anything close to that. It’s job will be to advise on indigenous affars. Yes, we’ve had bodies before that were meant to do that (notably ATSIC). But they weren’t protected by the Constitution, so were easily dismantled by the government of the day.
Lidia is just an example, if that helps.
She in the past has said she wants full treaty, with whatever bargaining comes with it. I’ve heard that she wants more now, and that’s her right to want that. She may even get what she wants some day. Interesting times ahead.
The voice will be able to use shame via the media / social media etc, to ensure things it wants are passed. There may be other mechanisms also. These are some of the fears I hear.
It’ll be interesting to see it all play out, that’s for sure. I wonder what the future will bring for the nation? It’d be great to see aboriginal people lifted to a position of honour and be able to reclaim their losses. I think though, this is the everyday day man’s fear. What will that mean? How far will it go? Only time will tell.
The voice will be able to use shame via the media / social media etc, to ensure things it wants are passed.
Indigenous Australians can already talk to the media and use social media. The Voice doesn’t change that at all.
Also - every citizen of this country has the right to advocate for things they want to see passed into law. That’s what it means to live in a democracy.
What The Voice actually does is force our government (not the media, not the general public), to listen when indigenous representatives raise important issues. It doesn’t force the government to act, only listen. And if the government does do anything that the majority of Australians disagree with… they will be voted out with prejudice at the next election and the new government will immediately reverse whatever they did. You’re worried about something that just won’t happen.
So, why isn’t she FOR the Voice? Explain that.
Or maybe because she knows that her lunacy will be blocked out once there’s an advisory body telling us how crazy she is.
Without a doubt she will want full sovereignty over any other race.
Um… there is no way in hell Australians would allow Lidia Thorpe to have full sovereignty over this country. Have your forgotten the part where her boyfriend was president of the Victorian chapter of the largest outlaw motorcycle gang in Australia?! Sure - police have no evidence he committed a crime. But he was president of an organisation that has had gunfights in broad daylight where innocent bystanders were shot to death for simply standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not to mention selling hard drugs to kids.
Nobody should be listening to Lidia Thorpe on anything and it’s an embarrassment that the Greens allowed her to be a leading member of the party.
And if what you actually meant was “some other indigenous person” should have full sovereignty… well, which person specifically? Who exactly are you suggesting should replace King Charles as sovereign of Australia? I get it, he’s a terrible person for the role, I think we should find someone better. But I don’t see anyone putting their hand up. When someone competent does, then we can hold another referendum.
For now, it’s at best an impossibly unrealistic dream. At worst it’s a deliberate and malicious attempt to make sure no meaningful progress happens. And honestly, I’m leaning towards the latter.
My thinking boils down to this:
-
We spend billions each year, but studies show the gap between other Australians and indigenous is worsening. We should be trying something. Anything.
-
For those concerned about ‘the details’, my understanding is that the pollies are responsible for those after the referendum. Do you really think a parliament and senate made up of mainly old white guys are going to significantly change how the country works? Seriously?
So, we’ve got nothing to lose, and hell, wouldn’t it be awesome if it actually had some positive changes!
-
Why has every piece of “information” about the No vote always boil down to “we don’t know”. But the yes voters have a bunch of answers to every question.
Because the no campaign isn’t interested in answers, they just want to spread FUD.
Its not “we don’t know” its that the Referendum makes the Voice subject to parliament. The lack of details on how the voice will operate means that there is no protection from the constitution. It is not a Voice enshrined in the Constitution. The voice we will get if the amendment is passed is the same as the voice we would get if Parliament made a voice without a referendum.
Referendum makes the Voice subject to parliament
Nope. Wrong.
The voice we will get if the amendment is passed is the same as the voice we would get if Parliament made a voice without a referendum.
No, it isn’t. A Voice enshrined in the Constitution will need another referendum to abolish. An Act of Parliament only requires… an Act of Parliament to abolish.
That’s already profoundly better.
This is the first referendum voting experience for me so I’m excited to be part of history even if the outcome is not the one I want. I’m personally in the critical yes camp where I hope the referendum is successful but still agree with the points raised by the progressive no campaign. I was unsure for a while because I’m not an Indigenous person and wanted to listen to as many different Indigenous perspectives as I could before deciding. What really pushed me to yes was the idea that while not every person who votes no is racist, all racists will vote no.
I have serious issues with the idea of progressive no - it’s bad faith at worst, purity politics at best. “Nonono don’t throw that bucket of water on the fire i want a fire truck” the former doesn’t preclude the latter ffs.
Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and it’s not my place to say what is or isn’t a good approach to change in this space. The progressive no campaign is connected to the Indigenous sovereignty movement and I can understand why they have taken the position they have. I’m not an Indigenous person so I don’t feel like it’s appropriate for me to try and represent their ideas. But I don’t think it’s fair to close yourself off to them, especially when the principle of the voice should is about listening to the diversity of Indigenous perspectives.
What if the throwing of the bucket is used by the arsonists as justification for not calling the fire truck? What if the bucket was built by the people who have acted in the interests of the arsonists in the first place? What if the bucket isn’t full of water it is just a bucket?
What if a no vote is used as ‘proof’ no one wants indigenous representation? I can play that game too.
“The voice” is literally just enshrining in the constitution an indigenous presence in parliament. What the ever loving fuck do your other arguments have to do with this fact. What. Show your fucking work.
What if a no vote is used as ‘proof’ no one wants indigenous representation
A No result could just as easily be blamed on the poor wording of the referendum.
Show your fucking work.
No need to be so aggressive I’m trying to debate here in good faith. Read the proposed amendment.
Parliament shall … have power to make laws … relating to the … Voice.
So all they are doing is giving parliament the power to do something that it already has the power to do. The amendment doesn’t even go as far to say that any changes to the voice after it is established would need 3/4 majority or any other protections. The amendment is a nothingburger.
That’s what happened after the 2000 republic referendum. It was said that lots of people who voted no wanted a republic, but thought the wording of the question was wrong.
It ultimately doesn’t matter, because 23 years later there has never been another referendum on the topic.
If you believe a no vote for the voice is going to inspire a better worded referendum - or any sort of change on the status quo in the next couple of decades, well I’m afraid I’m going to disagree with you. A “No” vote is a vote for no change for the next generation.
I don’t disagree with most of what you said but if you think a Yes vote is going to change the status quo you are going to be disappointed. The referendum passing will do as much for the next generation as “Closing the gap” did for this one only the lack of action will be blamed on the Voice not on the government.
Now I’m really confused. We’ve essentially agreed that a “No” vote will change nothing. Common ground is good!
Even if a “yes” vote did nothing (which most of us disagree with, but let’s honour your vision), it would at the very least show that most of the population wants change. You have nothing to lose in showing a little hope. Why would you vote against that?
From what I can make out, your concerns are:
- “Yes” doesn’t go far enough.
- The makeup of the body is not defined clearly enough.
On your first point: More common ground! I also don’t want to stop here. But that’s the whole point. We start with a voice to parliament, and hopefully go on a journey together toward healing and reconciliation. We end with a treaty that has brought us together as one people.
On your second point: that’s not what the constitution is for. If you put too much detail into your body there, you are stuck with that definition. A body of 10 people might be appropriate today, but inadequate in 30 years. But as it says 10 in the constitution, we are stuck with that - forever. The idea of the article in the constitution is to describe what the body is for, and the details can be adjusted as needed.
in parliament
I’m afraid not, the voice will only be able to “make representations to” parliament, just like everyone else.
Source: the proposed amendment itself
the voice will only be able to “make representations to” parliament, just like everyone else.
Not “able” the voice “may” make representations. Who decides when they may? Oh right that is left to parliament.
Its a gag order written in a passive tone.
Ok, no.
In legal terms ‘may’ means the Voice may act at their discretion (differing from ‘shall’, which is an obligation)
May is discretionary but it is not clear in this instance as to who decides… until the last line where it says that parliament gets to decide the powers of the voice. It is clear that the voice has the choice to not make representations but it is not cut and dry that Parliament must accept representations.
If they wanted it cut and dry they would have said “the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth shall receive any representations on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples made by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice” instead of using “may” which is subject to challenges.
You seems to think this amendment was written by people who want what is best for Aboriginal Australians and not made by people who directly benefit from the injustices committed against Aboriginal Australians.
I think my very first voting experience was the republic referendum. I really didn’t know what I was doing or how to research. But all these years later, I stand by my vote.
I am voting Yes for The Voice because team Yes have put up an good case for it. Team No have yet to convince me otherwise; Everything I read is either vague speculation or miss information.
I wish I got to vote in the Republic referendum. What was the rhetoric like in comparison to the current one? Did anyone make a fuss about the ticks and crosses thing?
#ULURU STATEMENT FROM THE HEART
We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:
Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.
This sovereignty is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.
I honestly don’t know how I’m going to vote. Something is needed, but is it this?
I agree with a concern from the ‘no’ camp, that this ends up being a bandaid or virtue-signalling; and if it passes then “job well done” and we don’t keep moving forward.
Otoh, I very much fear that if the result is ‘no’, we have collectively just affirmed racism - the overt, the systemic, and the subtextual.
I have family planning to vote both ways, and they have put considered thought into their positions, not just gut reactions.
But I don’t know, for me. I don’t think I can in good conscience vote ‘no’, but I have not yet convinced myself that I can vote ‘yes’.
Your concerns are valid. I don’t think it’s a wild position to expect action from The Voice as a measure of success, and not virtue signalling. Race politics in this country is ugly. If the Yes camp wins, they will celebrate in a way that the No camp will label virtue signalling. And if the No camp wins, they will decry victory over political correctness. Respectful debate is unlikely irrespective of the outcome.
All that said — The Voice will be independent of the Government of the day. If the Government fails to act, The Voice will speak directly to the Government, the media and the community, announcing failure. I believe this will create a powerful political incentive to listen and act on the recommendations of The Voice in a unique way that our system currently does not have.
All political parties have issues with racism to various degrees — Liberals, Greens, Labor, all of 'em. The Voice will hold them accountable for their respective failures. Given that politicians loath transparency, it’s a fundamentally good idea to have an indigenous body to hold politicians to direct account.
A recent example of how this may play out is in Queensland, where Labor is potentially liable for tens of millions of dollars, for inhumane child detention in so-called ‘watch’ houses. The Guardian has an excellent article on this issue. If Australia had an advisory body like The Voice, the sheer amount of attention that would be given on this issue would unquestionably force Labor to prioritise rectifying this issue. Currently, this issue is being played out in the courts, which is an important component of justice, but I’d argue that an expedited solution would occur if The Voice existed.
Pardon the long post. If you want any recommendations for balanced and fair podcasts, articles or resources, please let me know. Happy to help. And all the best otherwise x
The Voice will be independent of the Government of the day.
Not True.
the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
I think it’s as simple as “progress over perfection”.
In and of itself, will this amendment do harm? If your answer is “No”, that’s all that matters.
It may not be the Silver Bullet, there likely is no silver bullet - but if this is one step closer to the life we all want to look back on, then we should try it. Arguments that this isn’t enough are complete sophistry. One step is better than no steps. The argument that “we might not take step four, therefore we shouldn’t take step one” is completely disingenuous. Of course we should take step one, because it’s better than where we are today. Tomorrow we will work on step two - together.
What are you losing by voting yes?
How does it directly affect you?
It is what the majority of Indigenous Australians surveyed, as well as the overwhelming majority of people involved in the process, have indicated they want. The Progressive No campaign has some valid criticisms but ultimately I don’t feel it is my responsibility as a non-Indigenous person to vote No on behalf of a minority. The way I see it, that side lost their internal battle years ago and we are now at a stage where the best way to show respect is to vote Yes.
I agree with a concern from the ‘no’ camp, that this ends up being a bandaid or virtue-signalling; and if it passes then “job well done” and we don’t keep moving forward.
I’m sorry but that argument doesn’t have any merit at all.
If you are hungry, is it a “band aid solution” to take one step towards the kitchen? Taking one step isn’t going to fill you up. There’s going to be far more work after the step, but that step is an essential component of the full solution.
This entire issue is going to take generations of hard work to fix. The fact this referendum alone will not fix everything on it’s own is totally irrelevant. The referendum will help in a few key small ways, and therefore it should be passed.
Indigenous Australians must take a leadership role in patching the rift between them and the rest of the country. It simply cannot be solved by white people alone. This referendum, if we vote Yes, will enshrine into law an essential framework for representatives of Indigenous Australia to collaborate with the broader government as a whole.
I very much fear that if the result is ‘no’, we have collectively just affirmed racism
That is exactly how the ‘no’ vote will be interpreted. Even if 90% of people vote ‘yes’ most people will see that as proof that 10% of the population are racist.
This is a litmus test of Australian society. Are we ready to make real progress or not? Voting no means we are not ready.
so that 7 news story on the Adelaide “No” protest pretty much told me all I need to know about the No side.
conspiracy theorists, shouty people, antivax nonsense and racism. what any of that had to do with the referendum who knows
edit: sydney and melbourne too it seems. its almost as if certain types of people swing to the No side
Don’t forget neo nazis who are actively supporting the no campaign. Dutton and co can try to lie and convince people that they care about making things better for Indigenous Australians all they want but there’s absolutely no fucking reality where nazis give a shit about this. Not all people who vote no are racists, but all racists will vote no.
One question I have, which I haven’t been able to ask anyone since I’m a recluse, is “what positive societal change is made by voting no?”
Nothing. Even the Progressive No campaign has can’t answer that question. The closest they got was claiming a successful Yes vote would lead to more racism in Australia because everyone would be unhappy with Indigenous Australians getting a Voice…even though they would have literally just voted Yes to it in that scenario.
People voted for Brexit and a lot of them are unhappy about it, not that I expect the same would hold true of the Voice.
yep. and to be frank my opinion is if you take the same side as people like this, you are tarnished by their presence
Less than the active racism on the news, there’s a hell of a lot of people who think righting wrongs isn’t worth the small sum of cash and time that a voice will take up in the public sphere. People who think because we’ve been forced into a minority that we should lay down and accept being trodden on.
For what it’s worth, a lot of my neighbours have a vote yes sign on their doors. It makes me feel like we’ll get the yes to change the constitution. That’d be awesome. I’m hanging onto hope.
I think it’s going to be close just because of how powerful the no campaign has been spreading their bullshit
Fuck I’ve already got this song stuck in my head and it’s going to be stuck in there for months.
FWIW I’ll be voting Yes, but I doubt it will do much good.
Referendums never succeed in this country, unless they have bipartisan support. So what was the point of this exercise? What’s Albanese’s angle in all of this?
Same sex marriage?
Actually, that was a postal survey, before a parliamentary vote. Not a binding referendum.
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What was deleted?
Something I have not seen discussed anywhere.
They do not specify that this group will be elected. That mean they will be appointed. I just can’t see future for this other than a punch of politicians mates from the inner city. Completely out of touch with the needs of those they represent.
I’m still leaning towards voting yes but I don’t see this actually helping. It’s probably just going to cost the tax payers a bunch of money and do no good.
If they were elected then they could be held to account.How people are appointed to the Voice is irrelevant to the referendum and will be legislated by the parliament
It’s very relevant. We need to decide if we want to irrevocably change the country. We need more than “don’t worry about it”
if we want to irrevocably change
The composition of the Voice is not irrevocable. The vote in the referendum is whether you support the notion that there is a constitutionally-mandated Voice, and not whether you approve of the specific model being proposed. Parliament can change the specific model at will, regardless of whether it is the current Labor Government or a future LNP one. The only thing that will be irrevocable is the fact that some Voice exists.
And that’s where I can see people having concerns. By voting Yes, you are opening the door for a model that you may not agree with. I can see people being hesitant about it, like it’s a trap. But that’s just my devil’s advocate opinion, the fact is that this will unlikely affect anyone who isn’t ingenious in a tangible way.
It’s well overdue for us to genuinely celebrate our indigenous heritage and ensure our constitution allows us to embed this culture into our country’s DNA.
Not entirely true. HC will likely set some sort of minimum standard for composition eventually, probably minimum standards for how they can provide representations if parliament decides to make it hard for them to do so.
It might do that. Or it might not. The inter-state commission is a good example of that.
If you are not an Indigenous person then the voice will not really be advising on things that are relevant to you. And the voice is fundamentally an advisory group that will present their concerns to the government. The government will then act on this advice. It will still be the government making laws and policies. It just needs to be constitutional so that it can’t be terminated like previous advisory groups have been.
Considering the level of disadvantage that Indigenous Australians experience, don’t you think it’s reasonable that they should have greater say (a voice) on how to address the issues that are relevant to them?
The problem is that those people who will be given the voice will actively work against the needs of those they pretend to represent. Just like all politicians.
How will that help anyone?So, your plan is to burn it all down and live in an anarchist commune?
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
We’ve already decided on that through the previous federal election. Theoretically, the voice will be legislated in a way which appeals to the majority of Australians.
Remember: bad politicians and parties only get into parliament because, we, Australians, put them there
The rich put them there. We Australians don’t really have a choice. The Libs are complete garbage and Labor have abandoned their principles just to get power. They are only slightly better?
What other choice do we have?We live in a democracy, we voted for them. I think if political advertising was prohibited then we would have way more independents in parliament
A reminder, the PM is basically appointed. We don’t get to vote on the PM, just the party, and they pick who is going to lead us.
As for a “bunch of money” - it’s almost nothing.
If conservative voters actually cared about money, they wouldn’t waste money on American nuclear subs we can’t refuel, or broken French contracts, or spending more triple on a subpar telecommunications network that Labor is having to spend more on to fix.
No, it’s not about money, and it isn’t about elections.
I am one of the biggest critics of the Libs but I don’t think the whole AUKUS debacle can be 100% blamed on them.
The whole thing screams the US forcing Australia to buy the subs to ensure long term control.
If the government doesn’t do what they are told then the US can refuse to maintain the subs.
Remember the last prime minister who looked out for Australia’s best interests rather than the US’s interests got kicked out of government and an unelected lib Prime minister replaced him.
I’ll be voting yes as it’s the least we can do, foot in the door and all.
That said, it’s literally the least we could do. Very much a ‘yes, and’ rather than think racism’s solved with this one vote@forcequit @unionagainstdhmo Good on ya!
The idea that the voice is some sort of useless idea is seriously flawed. Policy institutes and Parliamentary hearing and committee are the biggest drivers of policy in this country. Media attention and petitions aren’t nearly as effective in this regard. The voice will likely not be integrated as a Parliamentary comittee is, due to its being a separate body, but will still offer valuable representation to Parliament to those who came before these institutions and this country. Aboriginals had their own traditions, nations and sovereignty on land that was not ceded. We have accepted their legal and unique history with this land, this is merely saying that within the framework of Australia as a country, that Aboriginals deserve access to our legislature and executive on matters that affect them.
The popular argument by resident no voter @whirlybird@aussie.zone seems to be that this is virtue signalling and that this would be the end of social justice for Aboriginals, that resistance would develop in trying to advance a cause further. They seem to suggest that we would be better off doing something of substance, as to not foment resistance and resentment. I would hope that on the first point, its been made clear that there is real benefit to having a Voice, and the second is irrelevant, the Australian population will tire after a no vote, and after a yes vote. Its the jobs of those politically active, the media, the Voice itself, politicians, and those non apathetic people to push for more when the time comes.
A second argument I hear, and the most factually true argument I hear is lack of detail. It is true that there is a lack of official detail from those legislators who will be advancing bills if the referendum finishes in the affirmative. It is also understandable to want to know in substance what the fruits of your vote would be. Id encourage those who would like to learn to listen to ideas from the referendum working group and those associated with the yes campaign on rough ideas of a Voice if this is the case. Its important to remember that we are voting on the amendment though, not the bill itself. There are significant measures that must go into establishing the voice in substance:
- Will the voice exist entirely under its own weight, legislated by Parliament and run by itself, or will the bureaucratic arm of the voice exist in the Australian Public Service
- How will the voice be elected? How will regional voices be represented? Is a federal model (each nation receives x representatives), a state based model (each state receives x amount of reps) or a unitary, population based model more effective?
All of these questions take significant time. If you can focus on the amendment, and whether support those ideas outside of what a future voice may look like, it will help.
