Anyone who cares about downvotes needs to get their head examined. A downvote can mean the person doesn’t agree with your comment, doesn’t like your tone, thinks you are incorrect, thinks the comment doesn’t add to the discussion, hell they could downvote you just because they don’t like your username. None of that matters. All it does is show you if your comment goes against the zeitgeist or not.
The whole point is that people can downvote you for any stupid reason and doesn’t accurately reflect why a post is being rejected by the community. People will do it simply because they want to silence you.
And it causes issues with brigading, botnets, etc. It’s why hexbear and lemmygrad are being defederated – and their members are able to get around it simply by making accounts on other servers and going right back to the brigading. Removing the voting option and giving admins tools to IP ban everyone from an instance upon defederation would go a long way toward fixing the problem. Just putting the hurdle of needing a VPN to regain access alone will deter a lot of idiots.
I’ve had plenty of times where a comment I made got downvoted like crazy, but a response I made to a comment asking for clarification got a lot of upvotes. It seems people really like to jump on that downvote button, especially if they see something already getting downvotes (i.e. maybe they don’t even read it, they just downvote on reflex).
Votes happen to be really easy to deal with in software, which is probably why they’re so commonly used. However, when it comes to people actually casting votes, they behave a lot differently than software creators expect.
So perhaps we should try something else, like maybe sort by “activity” (how many times the comment was replied to) to sort of counteract that reflex-like urge to use it as an agree/disagree button (if you agree or disagree strongly, you’re likely to comment).
Just from those vote counts, I can be pretty sure the first comment is insightful, the second controversial, the third a troll, and the fourth is definitely spam. The fifth is probably a cat pic, relevant xkcd, meme, or a single-sentence comment that everyone loves, but doesn’t actually add anything important to the topic. If I’m looking for an interesting conversation, I’m focused on the first two, maybe the third. If I’m looking to be pissed off, the third and fourth. And if I’m looking for an easy read, the fifth.
+80, +50, +20, +1, and +100 doesn’t provide the same information. It’s the downvotes that provide the relative context.
You can also be “downvoted into oblivion” if you’re 100%, objectively correct, but your conclusion goes against the “hive mind.” I have had comments with a ton of sources and detailed analysis that got downvoted like crazy, and then the top comment is like “X group, amirite?”
You’re 100% correct that reddit rewards snark far more than constructive discussion. That’s part of why I’m here, and why I’ll probably be perennially disappointed with social media.
I value the ability to view the community sentiment more than I value artificial manipulation of the voting system to make the community seem more fair and open minded than it actually is.
When my opinion is not well received by the community, either I am wrong, or I have not presented it in a way they can understand and accept.
“Downvoting to oblivion” is not an inherently bad thing, even when it is due to a mistake or misconception. Just because that particular conversation has ended and 99.9% of the traffic has passed through does not mean the topic is finished. It will come back up in the future, and I know I will need to focus on that mistake or misconception when it does.
I also reject your characterization that upvotes are a “reward”.
For instance, r/conservative on Reddit famously bans
That’s a moderation issue, not a community voting issue.
The problem is that second part is incredibly broad. It can simply be because somebody didn’t like that you use a certain source, even if it’s completely valid.
I disagree that this is a “problem”. Votes are opinions, not objective fact.
There is a very specific zeitgeist/mentality there that must be adhered to, regardless of the quality of what you say. That is not a virtue, that is a problem.
Again, that’s primarily a moderation issue, not a community voting issue. The moderators enforcing a zeitgeist is certainly a problem; the community, not nearly so much.
For the community, it’s really only a problem if we assume upvotes are “good” and downvotes are “bad”. You have thus far completely ignored my point that the 80/20, 50/50, and even the 20/80 comment threads are consistently superior to the 100/0 threads. You need disagreement and conflict to have debate. Without the downvotes, you just have a weakly upvoted comment. With the downvotes, you have an immediate indication of a divisive position, ripe for a lively debate.
I disagree that this is a “problem”. Votes are opinions, not objective fact.
So what is the desired end result of a voting system, to promote popular opinions, or to promote interesting opinions? Because as implemented, voting-based SM tends to promote the former, and I think many people prefer the latter.
So to me, it is a problem because it’s not meeting the goals that presumably most people have.
With the downvotes, you have an immediate indication of a divisive position, ripe for a lively debate.
Many platforms, like Reddit, hide comments that get too many downvotes. So many people just won’t see the interesting, controversial discussion, and I think that’s a problem.
We should be sorting based on likeliness of being interesting, not popularity.
So what is the desired end result of a voting system, to promote popular opinions, or to promote interesting opinions?
The voting system just presents the community opinion on the comment. There are any number of ways to weigh those opinions. The other metrics I would want to see are number of threads, average length of threads, average word count in replies, etc. But raw upvoted and downvote counts go a long way toward finding good content.
it isn’t sorting by “contribute/doesn’t contribute,” that’s for sure.
It’s both. You’re not wrong with the groupthink thing, but they absolutely do help to combat disinformation and useless comments. I get that you’ve made a decision, but you don’t need to rationalize away the negatives.
Votes still get federated. Even if not exposed via UI anyone running their own (federated) instance can query for who voted on beehaw posts. Only a matter of time before that’s directly exposed as a mod tool.
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Anyone who cares about downvotes needs to get their head examined. A downvote can mean the person doesn’t agree with your comment, doesn’t like your tone, thinks you are incorrect, thinks the comment doesn’t add to the discussion, hell they could downvote you just because they don’t like your username. None of that matters. All it does is show you if your comment goes against the zeitgeist or not.
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The whole point is that people can downvote you for any stupid reason and doesn’t accurately reflect why a post is being rejected by the community. People will do it simply because they want to silence you.
And it causes issues with brigading, botnets, etc. It’s why hexbear and lemmygrad are being defederated – and their members are able to get around it simply by making accounts on other servers and going right back to the brigading. Removing the voting option and giving admins tools to IP ban everyone from an instance upon defederation would go a long way toward fixing the problem. Just putting the hurdle of needing a VPN to regain access alone will deter a lot of idiots.
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That’s my biggest problem with downvotes. I want to know why someone disagrees. That can initiate an interesting conversation.
If I’m factually incorrect, I want to know. Same goes if I expressed myself poorly. A downvote alone doesn’t tell me anything.
I’ve had plenty of times where a comment I made got downvoted like crazy, but a response I made to a comment asking for clarification got a lot of upvotes. It seems people really like to jump on that downvote button, especially if they see something already getting downvotes (i.e. maybe they don’t even read it, they just downvote on reflex).
Votes happen to be really easy to deal with in software, which is probably why they’re so commonly used. However, when it comes to people actually casting votes, they behave a lot differently than software creators expect.
So perhaps we should try something else, like maybe sort by “activity” (how many times the comment was replied to) to sort of counteract that reflex-like urge to use it as an agree/disagree button (if you agree or disagree strongly, you’re likely to comment).
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+80/-20 +50/-50 +20/-80 +1/-99 +100/-0
Just from those vote counts, I can be pretty sure the first comment is insightful, the second controversial, the third a troll, and the fourth is definitely spam. The fifth is probably a cat pic, relevant xkcd, meme, or a single-sentence comment that everyone loves, but doesn’t actually add anything important to the topic. If I’m looking for an interesting conversation, I’m focused on the first two, maybe the third. If I’m looking to be pissed off, the third and fourth. And if I’m looking for an easy read, the fifth.
+80, +50, +20, +1, and +100 doesn’t provide the same information. It’s the downvotes that provide the relative context.
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You can also be “downvoted into oblivion” if you’re 100%, objectively correct, but your conclusion goes against the “hive mind.” I have had comments with a ton of sources and detailed analysis that got downvoted like crazy, and then the top comment is like “X group, amirite?”
You’re 100% correct that reddit rewards snark far more than constructive discussion. That’s part of why I’m here, and why I’ll probably be perennially disappointed with social media.
I value the ability to view the community sentiment more than I value artificial manipulation of the voting system to make the community seem more fair and open minded than it actually is.
When my opinion is not well received by the community, either I am wrong, or I have not presented it in a way they can understand and accept.
“Downvoting to oblivion” is not an inherently bad thing, even when it is due to a mistake or misconception. Just because that particular conversation has ended and 99.9% of the traffic has passed through does not mean the topic is finished. It will come back up in the future, and I know I will need to focus on that mistake or misconception when it does.
I also reject your characterization that upvotes are a “reward”.
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That’s a moderation issue, not a community voting issue.
I disagree that this is a “problem”. Votes are opinions, not objective fact.
Again, that’s primarily a moderation issue, not a community voting issue. The moderators enforcing a zeitgeist is certainly a problem; the community, not nearly so much.
For the community, it’s really only a problem if we assume upvotes are “good” and downvotes are “bad”. You have thus far completely ignored my point that the 80/20, 50/50, and even the 20/80 comment threads are consistently superior to the 100/0 threads. You need disagreement and conflict to have debate. Without the downvotes, you just have a weakly upvoted comment. With the downvotes, you have an immediate indication of a divisive position, ripe for a lively debate.
So what is the desired end result of a voting system, to promote popular opinions, or to promote interesting opinions? Because as implemented, voting-based SM tends to promote the former, and I think many people prefer the latter.
So to me, it is a problem because it’s not meeting the goals that presumably most people have.
Many platforms, like Reddit, hide comments that get too many downvotes. So many people just won’t see the interesting, controversial discussion, and I think that’s a problem.
We should be sorting based on likeliness of being interesting, not popularity.
The voting system just presents the community opinion on the comment. There are any number of ways to weigh those opinions. The other metrics I would want to see are number of threads, average length of threads, average word count in replies, etc. But raw upvoted and downvote counts go a long way toward finding good content.
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It’s both. You’re not wrong with the groupthink thing, but they absolutely do help to combat disinformation and useless comments. I get that you’ve made a decision, but you don’t need to rationalize away the negatives.
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Actually, on Beehaw, you can. If Beehaw has the equivalent of kbin’s “activity” info, I haven’t found it.
Votes still get federated. Even if not exposed via UI anyone running their own (federated) instance can query for who voted on beehaw posts. Only a matter of time before that’s directly exposed as a mod tool.