Define “drive lots”. Working class citizens can easily have 60 mile commutes for work. Add in road trips for vacations and families are easily throwing down hundreds of thousands of miles. I wouldn’t say they’re are wealthy.
If you’re actually wealthy, you’d be flying for any significant distances.
From the last link since it’s long. Vmt is vehicle miles traveled, and pmt is person miles traveled:
Tldr: road usage is higher for higher income people, but it makes up a smaller percentage of their income. Reducing transportation costs has a greater benefit for low income households than high income households.
The problem is that long term, subsidizing driving makes everything worse and more expensive, especially for low income folks. So while considering effects of policy on low income folks is good, we should not look at this and conclude that eliminating marginal driving costs is a good thing.
So, in principle I agree. However, drawing road maintenance funding from something other than a regressive tax isn’t the same as subsidization. It similarly lowers the burden on some, but it’s just shifting it to those both more able to shoulder the burden, and those more responsible for it. They’re also the most able to find alternative modes of transport, since freight rail actually exists in a consistent way across the country, and last mile freight delivery is a continued use case for city roads even if we massively reduce our individual reliance on automobiles.
Secondly, it’s worth noting that this isn’t just automobile costs, but these reports also cover transportation in general. The cost of transportation is more of a burden for low income folks regardless of mode. Before we start considering denying relief or actively disincentivising one mode of transport, we need to ensure that an alternative actually exists. Without that step you’re not reducing our reliance on cars, your just punishing poor people for society not caring about light rail or walkable cities.
My city has a pretty good bus system compared to most, and there are parts of town that are practically unreachable without a car, and actually unreachable in a safe fashion in the winter. As a quick reference, I looked up the bus route for getting to my doctor’s office by 7am, which isn’t unreasonable for some of the businesses near it.
For reference, the walking instructions involve a fair bit of time on a pedestrian hostile bit of road with a lot of trucks and no sidewalks. It’s forecast to be roughly 9°F during that time and snowing.
It does only take an hour by bus if you can show up at eight instead.
All that to say, I’m 100% in favor of getting rid of cars. We just need a society where I can get to my doctor’s office without one first.
And even then, trucks should still pay for maintenance.
I think all these policy nudges need to happen in tandem. We can update how we tax vehicle use while shifting that money to transit, and doing zoning reform. If we wait until there is a perfect bus route everywhere before charging something resembling market rate for clearly unsustainable vehicle use, nothing will ever change. We can use the funding to help low income folks specifically, sure. I’m approaching this more from a traffic violence and climate change angle though. The status quo isn’t acceptable and already imposes tremendous burden on society.
I’d prefer a carbon fee and dividend as the main policy personally, but in the meantime I’ll keep advocating for anything that incentivizes less driving. Maintenance to me has to be tied to use, and we can figure out how to do that fairly without making unlimited driving approach zero marginal costs. Things will get a whole lot worse for low income folks if we do nothing.
I don’t think doing it at the same time works because it takes much longer to setup any form of mass transit, and far longer to make areas livable without a car. It’s not about waiting until there’s a perfect bus route, just making sure people have anything viable before we start pushing them to stop using what they have. Leave for work eight hours before you start, risk your life walking on the highway in the snow, or get fired just isn’t a choice we can put on people, especially when we’ve tied food, medical and housing assistance to working literally any job that will hire you.
Tying it to vehicle weight and miles traveled and only for commercial vehicles is tied to usage. Cars just don’t matter from a road wear perspective. The marginal cost of driving is the operating and maintenance costs for the vehicle.
Low income people are already good at budgeting those costs because travel consumes so much of their budget.
Of course cars matter for road maintenance. They’re the reason we have so many roads and so many lanes in the first place. We wouldn’t need near the infrastructure to support just commercial vehicles. We would have massive amounts of prime real estate if we didn’t waste it all on parking lots and lanes. Your 8 hour bus anecdote isn’t really relevant here - nothing will change overnight, but over time long car trips (especially in oversized vehicles) should cost more. People can adapt by buying lighter more efficient vehicles, and switch to other options as they become available. You think it’s expensive now, just wait until another decade or two of climate change impacts happens.
Fear of imposing any marginal costs on low income folks is a pro car argument. Taking your argument further, why not get rid of all gas taxes and road fees and just go 100% on making cars as cheap to operate, all in the name of equality? Surely you can see this is wrong direction.
No, they really don’t. We may have built infrastructure to accommodate the existence of cars, but if a truck can drive on it it needs to be designed to tolerate them. Once it’s built for that, a pedestrian and a car are closer in terms of road wear that a car and a truck.
Roads that see less freight traffic need maintenance radically less often. Placing the responsibility for ongoing maintenance on the entity that’s doing the damage makes sense.
I don’t see how “we don’t have adequate public transportation to rely on it” is irrelevant. People need to get places to work and live, and the people most impacted by a regressive gas tax are already not taking long trips. You don’t change their behavior by taking money out of their pocket, you just make them hungry.
Today, where we live, the vehicles that we would rather people use weigh quite a bit more, but use far less gas and have significantly lower carbon emissions. Shifting to a pure millage based road maintenance fee system signals that all else being equal, gas and electric are equally desirable. A pure weight system makes gas preferable. Removing the maintenance burden from the people contributing the least to it lets other incentives push people in the right direction, while pushing the main force of road wear to use trains more, which is feasible in the medium term because we already have freight rail that can supplant most intercity trucking.
Current plans are to tax and fee the financial benefits of electric vehicles away while shielding businesses from paying their fair share of road costs.
why not get rid of all gas taxes and road fees
Yes, that it what I would like to do for non-commercial vehicles. I am firmly opposed to regressive taxes.
Disproportionately burdening low income people doesn’t advance the cause of there being less cars on the road. If taken too far, it hurts that goal because money they could use moving to a walkable neighborhood or at least getting a more efficient vehicle is instead being used paying the penalty for not doing those things.
In the timeframe that we’re going to start having problems with road maintenance funding we’re not going to be able to meaningfully change peoples transportation habits beyond “middle class has more EVs and works from home more”. The best we can do is at least not reverse that trend.
It’s moot though, since our current trajectory will likely be to lower the gas tax (popular with low income voters), add a tax on EVs (popular with people who dislike the environmentally conscious or middle class and want to punish them), and to make up the difference by shifting budget from education to road maintenance. Probably see some bills to outlaw EVs due to lithiums environmental impact while also removing emissions standards entirely.
Define “drive lots”. Working class citizens can easily have 60 mile commutes for work. Add in road trips for vacations and families are easily throwing down hundreds of thousands of miles. I wouldn’t say they’re are wealthy.
If you’re actually wealthy, you’d be flying for any significant distances.
maybe you’re right. i would like to see some research about road usage and wealth and the correlation between the two before changing this law though.
https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/ida7-k95k
https://www.bts.gov/data-spotlight/household-cost-transportation-it-affordable
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/23cpr/chap3.cfm
From the last link since it’s long. Vmt is vehicle miles traveled, and pmt is person miles traveled:
Tldr: road usage is higher for higher income people, but it makes up a smaller percentage of their income. Reducing transportation costs has a greater benefit for low income households than high income households.
Fair enough, thanks for informing me.
The problem is that long term, subsidizing driving makes everything worse and more expensive, especially for low income folks. So while considering effects of policy on low income folks is good, we should not look at this and conclude that eliminating marginal driving costs is a good thing.
So, in principle I agree. However, drawing road maintenance funding from something other than a regressive tax isn’t the same as subsidization. It similarly lowers the burden on some, but it’s just shifting it to those both more able to shoulder the burden, and those more responsible for it. They’re also the most able to find alternative modes of transport, since freight rail actually exists in a consistent way across the country, and last mile freight delivery is a continued use case for city roads even if we massively reduce our individual reliance on automobiles.
Secondly, it’s worth noting that this isn’t just automobile costs, but these reports also cover transportation in general. The cost of transportation is more of a burden for low income folks regardless of mode. Before we start considering denying relief or actively disincentivising one mode of transport, we need to ensure that an alternative actually exists. Without that step you’re not reducing our reliance on cars, your just punishing poor people for society not caring about light rail or walkable cities.
My city has a pretty good bus system compared to most, and there are parts of town that are practically unreachable without a car, and actually unreachable in a safe fashion in the winter. As a quick reference, I looked up the bus route for getting to my doctor’s office by 7am, which isn’t unreasonable for some of the businesses near it.
For reference, the walking instructions involve a fair bit of time on a pedestrian hostile bit of road with a lot of trucks and no sidewalks. It’s forecast to be roughly 9°F during that time and snowing.
It does only take an hour by bus if you can show up at eight instead.
All that to say, I’m 100% in favor of getting rid of cars. We just need a society where I can get to my doctor’s office without one first.
And even then, trucks should still pay for maintenance.
I think all these policy nudges need to happen in tandem. We can update how we tax vehicle use while shifting that money to transit, and doing zoning reform. If we wait until there is a perfect bus route everywhere before charging something resembling market rate for clearly unsustainable vehicle use, nothing will ever change. We can use the funding to help low income folks specifically, sure. I’m approaching this more from a traffic violence and climate change angle though. The status quo isn’t acceptable and already imposes tremendous burden on society.
I’d prefer a carbon fee and dividend as the main policy personally, but in the meantime I’ll keep advocating for anything that incentivizes less driving. Maintenance to me has to be tied to use, and we can figure out how to do that fairly without making unlimited driving approach zero marginal costs. Things will get a whole lot worse for low income folks if we do nothing.
I don’t think doing it at the same time works because it takes much longer to setup any form of mass transit, and far longer to make areas livable without a car. It’s not about waiting until there’s a perfect bus route, just making sure people have anything viable before we start pushing them to stop using what they have. Leave for work eight hours before you start, risk your life walking on the highway in the snow, or get fired just isn’t a choice we can put on people, especially when we’ve tied food, medical and housing assistance to working literally any job that will hire you.
Tying it to vehicle weight and miles traveled and only for commercial vehicles is tied to usage. Cars just don’t matter from a road wear perspective. The marginal cost of driving is the operating and maintenance costs for the vehicle.
Low income people are already good at budgeting those costs because travel consumes so much of their budget.
Of course cars matter for road maintenance. They’re the reason we have so many roads and so many lanes in the first place. We wouldn’t need near the infrastructure to support just commercial vehicles. We would have massive amounts of prime real estate if we didn’t waste it all on parking lots and lanes. Your 8 hour bus anecdote isn’t really relevant here - nothing will change overnight, but over time long car trips (especially in oversized vehicles) should cost more. People can adapt by buying lighter more efficient vehicles, and switch to other options as they become available. You think it’s expensive now, just wait until another decade or two of climate change impacts happens.
Fear of imposing any marginal costs on low income folks is a pro car argument. Taking your argument further, why not get rid of all gas taxes and road fees and just go 100% on making cars as cheap to operate, all in the name of equality? Surely you can see this is wrong direction.
No, they really don’t. We may have built infrastructure to accommodate the existence of cars, but if a truck can drive on it it needs to be designed to tolerate them. Once it’s built for that, a pedestrian and a car are closer in terms of road wear that a car and a truck.
Roads that see less freight traffic need maintenance radically less often. Placing the responsibility for ongoing maintenance on the entity that’s doing the damage makes sense.
I don’t see how “we don’t have adequate public transportation to rely on it” is irrelevant. People need to get places to work and live, and the people most impacted by a regressive gas tax are already not taking long trips. You don’t change their behavior by taking money out of their pocket, you just make them hungry.
Today, where we live, the vehicles that we would rather people use weigh quite a bit more, but use far less gas and have significantly lower carbon emissions. Shifting to a pure millage based road maintenance fee system signals that all else being equal, gas and electric are equally desirable. A pure weight system makes gas preferable. Removing the maintenance burden from the people contributing the least to it lets other incentives push people in the right direction, while pushing the main force of road wear to use trains more, which is feasible in the medium term because we already have freight rail that can supplant most intercity trucking.
Current plans are to tax and fee the financial benefits of electric vehicles away while shielding businesses from paying their fair share of road costs.
Yes, that it what I would like to do for non-commercial vehicles. I am firmly opposed to regressive taxes.
Disproportionately burdening low income people doesn’t advance the cause of there being less cars on the road. If taken too far, it hurts that goal because money they could use moving to a walkable neighborhood or at least getting a more efficient vehicle is instead being used paying the penalty for not doing those things.
In the timeframe that we’re going to start having problems with road maintenance funding we’re not going to be able to meaningfully change peoples transportation habits beyond “middle class has more EVs and works from home more”. The best we can do is at least not reverse that trend.
It’s moot though, since our current trajectory will likely be to lower the gas tax (popular with low income voters), add a tax on EVs (popular with people who dislike the environmentally conscious or middle class and want to punish them), and to make up the difference by shifting budget from education to road maintenance. Probably see some bills to outlaw EVs due to lithiums environmental impact while also removing emissions standards entirely.
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