Huh, and here all the men I know have never even the slightest bit upset about broad generalizing statements about men because they are secure in the knowledge that the statement doesn’t apply to them… Sounds like a skill issue tbh.
I know this statement doesn’t apply to me, but it still hurts me. Just the same as any generalisation.
I’m sure you’ll say something about privilege, and I somewhat agree, but someone having privilege does not make it okay to completely dismiss them and group them in with shitty people for things out of their control.
And again, rhetoric like this is one of the reason that young men are moving away from progressives into the hands of the alt-right. If you want things to get better and want men to be better, the first step is to not be an asshole to them for no reason.
Oh no I get grouped in with shitty people all the time. I’m AMAB and I look very much like a man. I am acutely aware of how I’m seen. I see every single woman that sees me and instinctively recoils in anticipation of me being exactly that kind of man. It sends my dysphoria through the roof to be seen and perceived that way every single second of every single day. I deal with that pain all the time.
But do you know what I don’t do? I don’t turn that around on women who are validly pointing out saying they hate when men do something messed up or creepy to women and tell them that they need to be more considerate of MY feelings on the matter. I don’t tell them that they need to stop being an asshole to me if they want me to care about their issues.
Personally I think there’s a big difference between being perceived as a man and being directly told “no it’s not “shitty people”, it’s men”
You can’t really do much about people’s perception, but you can absolutely change whether you’re directly a dick to someone because of how they were born.
This statement doesn’t apply to me. Still, when I am constantly lumped in the same category as rapists, sexual predators and any or all other demeaning terms, it does start to affect my self-esteem and make me doubt myself.
Just like when you look at social medias and all the women are perfect. You know it’s a tuned photo with a lot of work behind it. But you see it all the time : on your phone, TV and ads in general. And it does affect women, even if the beauty standards are irrealist, and humans come in all size and forms.
The difference is that those photos are presented as if the unrealistic thing is desirable. As if it is something that everyone should want to be. While you’re hearing “I wish men would stop being creepy” and acting like they’re directly calling you personally a creep.
I’m an AMAB nonbinary person, basically every time a woman sees me I can see her instinctively preparing for me to be that exact guy because I look like if Bigfoot dressed as Bob from Bob’s Burgers. It sends my dysphoria through the roof every time. But even I can manage not to get bent out of shape when women call out men being toxic because I know I’m not guilty of the things they’re calling out.
Do you realize that the exemple you give is the same principle as you criticize?
It sends my dysphoria through the roof every time.
But even I can manage not to get bent out of shape […]
You are sure about that? Dysphoria is a pretty big deal.
Seems to me you still internalize the generalization made about people in your situation and it does affect you. Same as my examples.
I can make the difference between women calling “all men” and myself as a person, and that wasn’t my point.
If everywhere you look, there is someone or something telling you that you are a bad person because of something you can’t control, you can be as stoic as you want, it will affect you negatively. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
And it seems to me that you don’t understand that my response was directly to your response to OP, not the #AllMen debate.
Huh, and here all the men I know have never even the slightest bit upset about broad generalizing statements about men because they are secure in the knowledge that the statement doesn’t apply to them… Sounds like a skill issue tbh.
So what is your point?
What is your smug, dismissive attitude achieving?
I know this statement doesn’t apply to me, but it still hurts me. Just the same as any generalisation.
I’m sure you’ll say something about privilege, and I somewhat agree, but someone having privilege does not make it okay to completely dismiss them and group them in with shitty people for things out of their control.
And again, rhetoric like this is one of the reason that young men are moving away from progressives into the hands of the alt-right. If you want things to get better and want men to be better, the first step is to not be an asshole to them for no reason.
Oh no I get grouped in with shitty people all the time. I’m AMAB and I look very much like a man. I am acutely aware of how I’m seen. I see every single woman that sees me and instinctively recoils in anticipation of me being exactly that kind of man. It sends my dysphoria through the roof to be seen and perceived that way every single second of every single day. I deal with that pain all the time.
But do you know what I don’t do? I don’t turn that around on women who are validly pointing out saying they hate when men do something messed up or creepy to women and tell them that they need to be more considerate of MY feelings on the matter. I don’t tell them that they need to stop being an asshole to me if they want me to care about their issues.
Personally I think there’s a big difference between being perceived as a man and being directly told “no it’s not “shitty people”, it’s men”
You can’t really do much about people’s perception, but you can absolutely change whether you’re directly a dick to someone because of how they were born.
This statement doesn’t apply to me. Still, when I am constantly lumped in the same category as rapists, sexual predators and any or all other demeaning terms, it does start to affect my self-esteem and make me doubt myself.
Just like when you look at social medias and all the women are perfect. You know it’s a tuned photo with a lot of work behind it. But you see it all the time : on your phone, TV and ads in general. And it does affect women, even if the beauty standards are irrealist, and humans come in all size and forms.
This is the same principle in the two cases.
The difference is that those photos are presented as if the unrealistic thing is desirable. As if it is something that everyone should want to be. While you’re hearing “I wish men would stop being creepy” and acting like they’re directly calling you personally a creep.
I’m an AMAB nonbinary person, basically every time a woman sees me I can see her instinctively preparing for me to be that exact guy because I look like if Bigfoot dressed as Bob from Bob’s Burgers. It sends my dysphoria through the roof every time. But even I can manage not to get bent out of shape when women call out men being toxic because I know I’m not guilty of the things they’re calling out.
So I say again. Sounds like a skill issue
Do you realize that the exemple you give is the same principle as you criticize?
You are sure about that? Dysphoria is a pretty big deal.
Seems to me you still internalize the generalization made about people in your situation and it does affect you. Same as my examples.
I can make the difference between women calling “all men” and myself as a person, and that wasn’t my point.
If everywhere you look, there is someone or something telling you that you are a bad person because of something you can’t control, you can be as stoic as you want, it will affect you negatively. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
And it seems to me that you don’t understand that my response was directly to your response to OP, not the #AllMen debate.
Did… Did you just try to imply that my dysphoria is from me internalizing women saying men bad?
I did not say that. You are clearly arguing in bad faith just to make your point.
This conversation is going nowhere and I won’t spend more energy on it.