There’s no way humans didn’t have human problems. This seems like an extension of the “good ol’ days” that views the past with rose tinted glasses. There absolutely would have been theft, murder, laziness, have-nots…whatever. People are people.
Were there not many different tribes? It stands to reason that there could well have been a range of different lifestyles too. Including that described above.
My point being that other recorded experiences with native americans do not invalidate this rosy reminiscence.
It is in no way a workable solution to the modern maladies of this fractious over-crowded planet but it does help to have a range of idealised utopias to draw from in our discussions of how to proceed.
Ok. An unsourced meme is not historical fact. It’s disturbing that it’s even taken as valid with no corroborating information, you arguing as if it were true, and using opinion to manufacture “proof” such a “different tribes” and “lifestyles”. There’s plenty of made up bullshit floating around on the internet in pic/text format, why is this one granted any more believability? Do you have a legitimate source indicating any such “utopias” or do you just want to keep making things up?
Why does it upset you so much? It is, as you say, a meme. Just a meme. It’s not peer reviewed or held to any measurable standard that warrants getting yourself worked up over. It’s not taught in schools or repeated on any serious news platform as fact. It’s just a meme.
I too doubt if it is real. It’s just entertainment. Just like when I watch a tv show, I can choose to momentarily suspend belief when I engage with it.
Is it flat out impossible for some native peoples to have had that quoted experience? I don’t think so. I don’t also think it would have been common at all. But not impossible.
Are you sure that it is not the sentiment of the meme that you are really objecting to rather than it’s credibilty. Why not write a critical analysis of it. It would make for a more interesting conversation.
For one (speaking from my experience reading about the ‘wild Irish’), there is often a might makes right in the anarchy of these losely connected groups of people that is often brutal. Those at the bottom of the social ladder probably wouldn’t have such a rose tinted overview of it.
So if I disagree with you I’m “upset”? Now it’s just a meme and not the basis for your theories on native peoples?
can choose to momentarily suspend belief when I engage with it.
This is ridiculous. I provided a factual and objective source of information. Now you’re going on about the Irish, grasping at straws, and flat out saying feels before reals. Goddamn no wonder we got trump for president.
You’re still angry. And I don’t exactly understand why. You seem angry to me because you are being uncivil and closed minded.
But why? Do you think that meme is seditious or in some way undermines democracy? Do you think that there are only a limited range of responses to that meme that are acceptable, and you, somehow, are the arbiter?
My point being that other recorded experiences with native americans do not invalidate this rosy reminiscence.
I’d actually point to the excepts from Columbus’s own journals, catalogued in Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States” to identify a number of native tribes he initially encountered who were practically childlike in their innocence.
The Caribbean island peoples were documented in sharp contrast to more imperial mainlanders as extraordinarily passive, initially quite friendly, and devoid of the more rigid hierarchies and institutions common in those more technologically advanced societies.
The only bit that doesn’t really fit is the horses, which hadn’t arrived from Europe yet
Interesting stuff. I think remember hearing about that in the Behindthebastards episode on Columbus.
The spanish had a similar native experience during an unplanned visit to Ireland in 1517. While there were towns and villages in Ireland at the time, there was still a significant population of wild Irish.
They spend an marked amount of time talking about the free range boobs that were on show.
A fairer society where people largely take care of one another, or a society structured primarily to extract wealth from others with all those problems…
Pointing to a description of a society that on the face of it is better than ours, and saying that they still have some of the problems that we haven’t solved isn’t much of a point.
Slaves?! The society that displaced them was at least better in that respect, right?
…right?
Fuck me, you’re talking about my stupidity as you condemn them because of a series of flaws that were/are prevalent in the society that genocided them. You’re a little lacking in credibility, my guy.
There’s no way humans didn’t have human problems. This seems like an extension of the “good ol’ days” that views the past with rose tinted glasses. There absolutely would have been theft, murder, laziness, have-nots…whatever. People are people.
Ninja edit: found this.
https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/bitstream/handle/11122/9753/8729.02.conn.1991.punishment-precolonial-indigenous.ch.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y
Banishment, execution, murder, and theft among other things were absolutely a thing.
I would go so far as to say this is some classic “noble savage” bullshit that only serves to dehumanize people.
Were there not many different tribes? It stands to reason that there could well have been a range of different lifestyles too. Including that described above.
My point being that other recorded experiences with native americans do not invalidate this rosy reminiscence.
It is in no way a workable solution to the modern maladies of this fractious over-crowded planet but it does help to have a range of idealised utopias to draw from in our discussions of how to proceed.
Ok. An unsourced meme is not historical fact. It’s disturbing that it’s even taken as valid with no corroborating information, you arguing as if it were true, and using opinion to manufacture “proof” such a “different tribes” and “lifestyles”. There’s plenty of made up bullshit floating around on the internet in pic/text format, why is this one granted any more believability? Do you have a legitimate source indicating any such “utopias” or do you just want to keep making things up?
Why does it upset you so much? It is, as you say, a meme. Just a meme. It’s not peer reviewed or held to any measurable standard that warrants getting yourself worked up over. It’s not taught in schools or repeated on any serious news platform as fact. It’s just a meme.
I too doubt if it is real. It’s just entertainment. Just like when I watch a tv show, I can choose to momentarily suspend belief when I engage with it.
Is it flat out impossible for some native peoples to have had that quoted experience? I don’t think so. I don’t also think it would have been common at all. But not impossible.
Are you sure that it is not the sentiment of the meme that you are really objecting to rather than it’s credibilty. Why not write a critical analysis of it. It would make for a more interesting conversation.
For one (speaking from my experience reading about the ‘wild Irish’), there is often a might makes right in the anarchy of these losely connected groups of people that is often brutal. Those at the bottom of the social ladder probably wouldn’t have such a rose tinted overview of it.
So if I disagree with you I’m “upset”? Now it’s just a meme and not the basis for your theories on native peoples?
This is ridiculous. I provided a factual and objective source of information. Now you’re going on about the Irish, grasping at straws, and flat out saying feels before reals. Goddamn no wonder we got trump for president.
Take a hike.
You’re still angry. And I don’t exactly understand why. You seem angry to me because you are being uncivil and closed minded.
But why? Do you think that meme is seditious or in some way undermines democracy? Do you think that there are only a limited range of responses to that meme that are acceptable, and you, somehow, are the arbiter?
I’d actually point to the excepts from Columbus’s own journals, catalogued in Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States” to identify a number of native tribes he initially encountered who were practically childlike in their innocence.
The Caribbean island peoples were documented in sharp contrast to more imperial mainlanders as extraordinarily passive, initially quite friendly, and devoid of the more rigid hierarchies and institutions common in those more technologically advanced societies.
The only bit that doesn’t really fit is the horses, which hadn’t arrived from Europe yet
Interesting stuff. I think remember hearing about that in the Behindthebastards episode on Columbus.
The spanish had a similar native experience during an unplanned visit to Ireland in 1517. While there were towns and villages in Ireland at the time, there was still a significant population of wild Irish.
They spend an marked amount of time talking about the free range boobs that were on show.
Good thing we’ve sacrificed that relative utopia to solve all those problems, eh?
Not even remotely close to a utopia, especially when compared to modern day, but I’m sure that doesn’t matter to you.
A fairer society where people largely take care of one another, or a society structured primarily to extract wealth from others with all those problems…
Pointing to a description of a society that on the face of it is better than ours, and saying that they still have some of the problems that we haven’t solved isn’t much of a point.
They went to war and took each other as slaves.
You’re just waxing poetic about things you don’t really understand, and it makes you look genuinely fucking stupid.
Slaves?! The society that displaced them was at least better in that respect, right?
…right?
Fuck me, you’re talking about my stupidity as you condemn them because of a series of flaws that were/are prevalent in the society that genocided them. You’re a little lacking in credibility, my guy.
You claimed it was a relative utopia. I disproved that. You’ve doubled down.
You’re just a fucking moron, eat the L.
You’re calling a moron when you understand what “relative” means? Not my L to take, champ.
The positive differences have been established from the outset, you’ve failed to point to any negative differences - relative utopia remains accurate.