The real beef was with stay home single EDIT issue folks who would otherwise be Dem voters.
Edit for clarity: the above group are historical, nominally Dem voters, who stayed home abnormally this election.
3rd party “voices” were annoying because they only punched at Dems, never at republicans. Interestingly, a few of them migrated to libertarian and conservative instances now
Don’t blame the people staying home. Blame the Democrats for doing nothing to earn those votes but say “Orange Man Bad”. They did the exact same thing in 2016. Democrats ran on maintaining the status quo at a time when no one is happy with the status quo.
The Harris campaign should have campaigned on issues that would attract progressives and others on the left. Instead they tried to get conservatives to leave their cult by touting the endorsement of Dick fucking Cheney and his incredibly unpopular daughter and saying they’ll close the borders and continue funding Netanyahu’s genocide. It’s like Harris didn’t want to win.
If Democrats want to win they need to stop being Republicans.
Edit but in the spirit of conversation: Biden AND Harris are lame candidates that absolutely only maintain the status quo. As you say, voters are unhappy with that.
Edit restructure
I disagree with the conclusion that OMB isn’t valid reasoning. But it’s just one dudes opinion that I’ve laid out in the thread.
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
People will learn the consequences, regardless of what brought them in our kept them home.
If folks fundamentally can’t play out the math on 2 choices in a FPTP where one is a serial rapist, anti abortion candidate, who is on record for wanting to accelerate Gaza, then I dunno what to say on that. “Status quo” starts looking pretty shiny, which is terrible, but the world we live in.
But now we have trump, and a lot of folks get to say “they didn’t attract me”
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
It’s a logical argument and it’s a correct argument. Unfortunately it’s demonstrably not an effective argument, especially when it’s all you’re doing. The same thing happened in 2016 with Clinton thinking she was owed votes because Trump would be (and was, and will be again) a disaster for the US. Yet they still went with the same strategy anyway.
I say this as someone who did make the “correct” choice of voting blue despite my moral objections to a lot of what she was saying. We will now all see the consequences of only barely trying to win an election against fascists.
To be clear, I have no love for the dnc or their strategies. I am not championing them as a model. Other commenters seem to think I’m simping for “blue maga” or some other shit.
I’ve consistently argued for harm reduction in a limited outcome system.
No, I haven’t discussed 3rd parties at all in my comment. I said 3rd party “voices”, reading comprehension meaning “commenters/online personalities” because I noted their movement to new instances.
Edit also note I had a typo in my above “single party” to 'single issue"
My “toxicity” are legitimate concerns to not get trump, who will ramp everything up. Well look who’s here now.
As I said, single issue stay homes, and “alternative” voices that actually only served to strike at Dems are issues I believe shifted the narrative and may have influenced the election.
I made a thread to discuss other influences beyond just punching down at 3rd party platforms.
Yes we heard you the first 3 times. Its the voters fault. The Democrats are merely victims, completely maladroit at managing their own fate.
You aren’t making different any new points or clarification, just repeating the same, tired tropes that just handed the US democracy over to fascism. And we get it, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond the initial assumptions you made. No need to repeat yourself any longer.
Honestly dude I commented with the intent of discussing the issue but you’re just slinging mud.
It’s not toxicity to make an observation on forces that drove voters to not vote for harris. I didn’t say Harris was a queen and how dare they. I didn’t say the Dems ran a good campaign or a good primary or something.
It’s not that 3rd parties exist, or have different ideas than Dems.
If I MUST discuss them I would say the only actual criticism I have (omg toxicity warning) is that they only crop up, and only vocalize in popular spaces right around general elections. They need to build their platform and messaging NOW and for the next several years with the intensity and visibility they do in August-november of a general election year. Their mission and goals would be more effectively achieved
Just because someone voted Democrat before doesn’t mean they would necessarily do so this year if it hadn’t been for that pesky genocide they are doing.
By us I mean leftists, third party voters, and people who did not vote
The real beef was with stay home single EDIT issue folks who would otherwise be Dem voters.
Edit for clarity: the above group are historical, nominally Dem voters, who stayed home abnormally this election.
3rd party “voices” were annoying because they only punched at Dems, never at republicans. Interestingly, a few of them migrated to libertarian and conservative instances now
Don’t blame the people staying home. Blame the Democrats for doing nothing to earn those votes but say “Orange Man Bad”. They did the exact same thing in 2016. Democrats ran on maintaining the status quo at a time when no one is happy with the status quo.
The Harris campaign should have campaigned on issues that would attract progressives and others on the left. Instead they tried to get conservatives to leave their cult by touting the endorsement of Dick fucking Cheney and his incredibly unpopular daughter and saying they’ll close the borders and continue funding Netanyahu’s genocide. It’s like Harris didn’t want to win.
If Democrats want to win they need to stop being Republicans.
Edit but in the spirit of conversation: Biden AND Harris are lame candidates that absolutely only maintain the status quo. As you say, voters are unhappy with that.
Edit restructure
I disagree with the conclusion that OMB isn’t valid reasoning. But it’s just one dudes opinion that I’ve laid out in the thread.
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
People will learn the consequences, regardless of what brought them in our kept them home.
If folks fundamentally can’t play out the math on 2 choices in a FPTP where one is a serial rapist, anti abortion candidate, who is on record for wanting to accelerate Gaza, then I dunno what to say on that. “Status quo” starts looking pretty shiny, which is terrible, but the world we live in.
But now we have trump, and a lot of folks get to say “they didn’t attract me”
It’s a logical argument and it’s a correct argument. Unfortunately it’s demonstrably not an effective argument, especially when it’s all you’re doing. The same thing happened in 2016 with Clinton thinking she was owed votes because Trump would be (and was, and will be again) a disaster for the US. Yet they still went with the same strategy anyway.
I say this as someone who did make the “correct” choice of voting blue despite my moral objections to a lot of what she was saying. We will now all see the consequences of only barely trying to win an election against fascists.
I am aligned with you here. Well put.
To be clear, I have no love for the dnc or their strategies. I am not championing them as a model. Other commenters seem to think I’m simping for “blue maga” or some other shit.
I’ve consistently argued for harm reduction in a limited outcome system.
This is all just the same toxic projection that I’ve been pointing out in this thread.
You want to blame third parties but there is basically 0, practically negative evidence for it.
No, I haven’t discussed 3rd parties at all in my comment. I said 3rd party “voices”, reading comprehension meaning “commenters/online personalities” because I noted their movement to new instances.
Edit also note I had a typo in my above “single party” to 'single issue"
Splendid discussion as usual dingdong. Twist then pull up
What do you expect when you just keep putting the same performative toxicity on display?
So much assuming.
My “toxicity” are legitimate concerns to not get trump, who will ramp everything up. Well look who’s here now.
As I said, single issue stay homes, and “alternative” voices that actually only served to strike at Dems are issues I believe shifted the narrative and may have influenced the election.
I made a thread to discuss other influences beyond just punching down at 3rd party platforms.
Yes we heard you the first 3 times. Its the voters fault. The Democrats are merely victims, completely maladroit at managing their own fate.
You aren’t making different any new points or clarification, just repeating the same, tired tropes that just handed the US democracy over to fascism. And we get it, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond the initial assumptions you made. No need to repeat yourself any longer.
Honestly dude I commented with the intent of discussing the issue but you’re just slinging mud.
It’s not toxicity to make an observation on forces that drove voters to not vote for harris. I didn’t say Harris was a queen and how dare they. I didn’t say the Dems ran a good campaign or a good primary or something.
It’s not that 3rd parties exist, or have different ideas than Dems.
If I MUST discuss them I would say the only actual criticism I have (omg toxicity warning) is that they only crop up, and only vocalize in popular spaces right around general elections. They need to build their platform and messaging NOW and for the next several years with the intensity and visibility they do in August-november of a general election year. Their mission and goals would be more effectively achieved
None of us would “otherwise be dem voters”. What part of “I’m not voting for you because I don’t support your policies” did you not understand?
Many “normally / historically” Dem voters stayed home. That’s the group I’m referring to by “single issue” section.
I don’t know who you “us” are so why would I speak for you?
Because you’ve been so civil in your reply, I’ll throw an edit on there just for you.
Just because someone voted Democrat before doesn’t mean they would necessarily do so this year if it hadn’t been for that pesky genocide they are doing.
By us I mean leftists, third party voters, and people who did not vote
That’s fine, I clarified I’m not discussing leftists.
Registered party voters represent millions and millions of voters. That type of “historical” voter is not an anomaly.