If third parties aren’t relevant then who cares if people vote for them?
I agree that people shouldn’t just throw in the towel and vote for one of the two major parties when they’ve been working so hard in the non election years to build a workers state.
Psl does represent a change in tactics I think. Their focus on organizing normal people instead of grabbing at the reins of power held by liberals or hyper focusing on campuses is different from the communist organizations of olde.
The PSL is a joke. Everyone knows this. They’re not even on the ballot in many states and need to be write-ins. Suggesting anyone vote for their dumb shit within mere weeks of an election is absolutely as bat-shit bad faith as it gets.
You know damn well they cannot win. It’s mathematically impossible. Yet you’re still pushing that garbage. Oh, wait. You actually
want them to gain traction? Let’s say for a second that I even believe you. So let’s say you truly want them to win. Here’s what you do:
You vote for who has the chance to win, them you do the hard work over next three and a half years of helping your chosen candidates gain the attention they need to be viable- Cavas, town halls, all that shit. And if they happen to lose again- which they will…
do it again. And again, and again.
But to expect and ask people to vote for two complete nobodies that just show up at the eleventh hour with little to no effective roadmap to any legitimate policy- and fleece votes away from the one person that actually has a chance to defeat a man who has said he intends to turn the military against his own people?
I don’t think the thing about the ballots has been true for a while. I didn’t pay attention to it because I’m not “in it to win it” as you might condense the position, but there’s only eight states in which they’re not either on the ballot or have the official write in seal of approval.
So, they actually could win! It’s not mathematically impossible I don’t think. Barring faithless electors, but that might cut a little too close to the bone of actually recognizing that our votes are largely meaningless under a system which is designed to keep the majority from power…
I have been doing the work. Not always for psl, both because I’ve been doing it longer than they existed as a party on my own radar and because I’ve developed from a disillusioned liberal into a communist over that time, but for at least sixteen years I’ve been politically active outside of elections and concurrent with them at a level so local it blurs the line between political praxis and just helping your neighbors.
I am not expecting people to vote psl. Psl isn’t expecting people to vote psl! The party itself treats the electoral campaign as a base building operation rather than a way to take power and a way to heighten the contradictions.
I also think an end to genocide is a legitimate policy. This tea though…
It might not be best to bring up turning the military against Americans as an indictment and motivator against trump. People might remember the military cracking anti-genocide protester heads under Biden and say “hey, wait just a minute!”
There’s two things I’m noticing this election season, and I’m not trying to hang the first thing around your head although you can wear the second one with pride:
There’s a strong undercurrent of fascist collaboration a-la niemollers famous poem. It doesn’t matter if the military are out there fighting anti genocide protesters, liberals would never be at the anti-genocide protest.
Everyone except for my people and my supporters are a foreign op, a plant, a secret member of the other major party, a spoiler or just acting in bad faith! This is a real bummer because it means that not just is it harder to talk to people because you gotta build trust for two days before they’ll entertain the possibility that you might have a real commitment to the ideas you’re talking about but also that the person to person connections that a communist society is predicated upon are breaking down even more.
If we can’t trust, respect and understand each other, how can we ever live in a society free of borders and hierarchy?
If the party itself doesn’t expect people to vote, then why vote for them?
They want you to join their mailing list,
, understand the platform, and hopefully a decent percentage of people will work to bolster them in local elections over the next four years.
You really have a lot of faith in your fellow Americans, don’t you?
Understand the spoiler effect. A vote for a third party is guaranteed to support the first-party that you likely oppose the most. It does not help anybody, except for whoever is furthest from your goals.
You think we will get any traction on voting reform with a first-party in charge? No. The game is massively stacked in the established parties favor, and changing that will damage their power, unless they form strong allegiances with third parties who caucus along side them.
They need to work from the ground up. You need a reality check. This country will go to hell in a hand basket if everyone who leans even a little bit left doesn’t step up and vote for the establishment candidate on the left.
We’re already halfway there. Look around. Look at how expensive homes and food are. The middle class no longer exists. The majority of them are drowning in revolving credit debt trying to keep their families heads above water. Anybody who is deeply indebted is, obviously, beyond broke.
And worse than that, my family pays more in health insurance premiums than we do in food. That is fucked. Staying healthy shouldn’t be more expensive than staying alive.
Neither I nor psl seriously think enough people will vote psl for them to win. I should have been clearer :)
Parties that vie with liberals to share the reins of power are the precursors to parties like psl, the dsa is a great example, psl recognizes how that strategy failed and are not trying to caucus with liberals except for in strategic circumstances.
The spoiler effect is exaggerated. Take me for example, I haven’t voted for an establishment party for fourteen years (at the state and national level). If there wasn’t a psl id vote some other third party that is as close to my ideals as possible. If there were no third parties id write in.
People aren’t saying “gosh, I just want someone a little better than the democrats” or “these republicans are too woke!” They’re recognizing that those two parties don’t and can’t represent them, maybe less so on the republican side, and choosing to vote third party instead of not voting for that seat.
I’m sure there’s lots of research showing that the spoiler effect is real, but personally speaking, and speaking for people I know who vote third party, and speaking from the experience of door knocking and then working the polls, third party voters aren’t going to be shamed or lectured into voting along mainstream party lines.
But let’s say you’d rather trust the science than some weirdo on the internet, and you believe that third party voters are just democrat voters who aren’t there yet.
Shouldn’t the democrats adopt the policies that entice them?
If third party voters are required to win this election, and they oppose the genocide, shouldn’t the democrats take real tangible steps while in power to stop the genocide and get those votes?
Psl has been working from the ground up. I don’t know what else to say. If you have a chapter near you they’re probably out there.
Things are fucked, I agree with you. There are material reasons why and psl is closer than any party I’ve ever interacted with in terms of recognizing the problem and working towards a solution.
Under no circumstances should anyone even consider voting for the psl at this time. It’s a throwaway vote and hurtful to the chance we have to keep Trump the fuck out of our politics.
The time to have considered them is LONG past. They didn’t do any of the work to make themselves viable. And as the far leftists/socialists like to say-
“The onus isn’t on the voter to do the work. It’s on the candidate to be electable.” Right?
De la Cruz is not electable, because there has been zero work towards any viability.
Harris IS electable. She’s campaigning. She’s interviewing. She’s debating. She has a good chance to win. Her policy is sound and believably possible in a real world. She has a track record of being politically astute and educated.
De la Cruz is nobody.
Don’t listen to this shit that the bullshit psl is here for anything other than to disrupt an election.
Why aren’t you trying to improve the system between elections? It’s clear you understand the flaws of First past the post voting. Why haven’t you been doing something about the spoiler effect you are so very concerned with?
I’m sure lemmy.ml will be able to do what nobody has been able to do in the 200+ year history of the US and make third parties relevant! Great job! /s
The meme is that you’re supposed to try to improve the system in between elections, not just throw away your vote every 4 years and call it a day
If third parties aren’t relevant then who cares if people vote for them?
I agree that people shouldn’t just throw in the towel and vote for one of the two major parties when they’ve been working so hard in the non election years to build a workers state.
Might wanna change your tactics then, bud. Your work doesn’t seem to be paying off. The US has never been further from a worker state.
Psl does represent a change in tactics I think. Their focus on organizing normal people instead of grabbing at the reins of power held by liberals or hyper focusing on campuses is different from the communist organizations of olde.
The PSL is a joke. Everyone knows this. They’re not even on the ballot in many states and need to be write-ins. Suggesting anyone vote for their dumb shit within mere weeks of an election is absolutely as bat-shit bad faith as it gets.
You know damn well they cannot win. It’s mathematically impossible. Yet you’re still pushing that garbage. Oh, wait. You actually want them to gain traction? Let’s say for a second that I even believe you. So let’s say you truly want them to win. Here’s what you do:
You vote for who has the chance to win, them you do the hard work over next three and a half years of helping your chosen candidates gain the attention they need to be viable- Cavas, town halls, all that shit. And if they happen to lose again- which they will…
do it again. And again, and again.
But to expect and ask people to vote for two complete nobodies that just show up at the eleventh hour with little to no effective roadmap to any legitimate policy- and fleece votes away from the one person that actually has a chance to defeat a man who has said he intends to turn the military against his own people?
Seriously … what the ever-loving fuck, man?
I don’t think the thing about the ballots has been true for a while. I didn’t pay attention to it because I’m not “in it to win it” as you might condense the position, but there’s only eight states in which they’re not either on the ballot or have the official write in seal of approval.
So, they actually could win! It’s not mathematically impossible I don’t think. Barring faithless electors, but that might cut a little too close to the bone of actually recognizing that our votes are largely meaningless under a system which is designed to keep the majority from power…
I have been doing the work. Not always for psl, both because I’ve been doing it longer than they existed as a party on my own radar and because I’ve developed from a disillusioned liberal into a communist over that time, but for at least sixteen years I’ve been politically active outside of elections and concurrent with them at a level so local it blurs the line between political praxis and just helping your neighbors.
I am not expecting people to vote psl. Psl isn’t expecting people to vote psl! The party itself treats the electoral campaign as a base building operation rather than a way to take power and a way to heighten the contradictions.
I also think an end to genocide is a legitimate policy. This tea though…
It might not be best to bring up turning the military against Americans as an indictment and motivator against trump. People might remember the military cracking anti-genocide protester heads under Biden and say “hey, wait just a minute!”
There’s two things I’m noticing this election season, and I’m not trying to hang the first thing around your head although you can wear the second one with pride:
There’s a strong undercurrent of fascist collaboration a-la niemollers famous poem. It doesn’t matter if the military are out there fighting anti genocide protesters, liberals would never be at the anti-genocide protest.
Everyone except for my people and my supporters are a foreign op, a plant, a secret member of the other major party, a spoiler or just acting in bad faith! This is a real bummer because it means that not just is it harder to talk to people because you gotta build trust for two days before they’ll entertain the possibility that you might have a real commitment to the ideas you’re talking about but also that the person to person connections that a communist society is predicated upon are breaking down even more.
If we can’t trust, respect and understand each other, how can we ever live in a society free of borders and hierarchy?
If the party itself doesn’t expect people to vote, then why vote for them?
They want you to join their mailing list, , understand the platform, and hopefully a decent percentage of people will work to bolster them in local elections over the next four years.
You really have a lot of faith in your fellow Americans, don’t you?
Understand the spoiler effect. A vote for a third party is guaranteed to support the first-party that you likely oppose the most. It does not help anybody, except for whoever is furthest from your goals.
You think we will get any traction on voting reform with a first-party in charge? No. The game is massively stacked in the established parties favor, and changing that will damage their power, unless they form strong allegiances with third parties who caucus along side them.
They need to work from the ground up. You need a reality check. This country will go to hell in a hand basket if everyone who leans even a little bit left doesn’t step up and vote for the establishment candidate on the left.
We’re already halfway there. Look around. Look at how expensive homes and food are. The middle class no longer exists. The majority of them are drowning in revolving credit debt trying to keep their families heads above water. Anybody who is deeply indebted is, obviously, beyond broke.
And worse than that, my family pays more in health insurance premiums than we do in food. That is fucked. Staying healthy shouldn’t be more expensive than staying alive.
Neither I nor psl seriously think enough people will vote psl for them to win. I should have been clearer :)
Parties that vie with liberals to share the reins of power are the precursors to parties like psl, the dsa is a great example, psl recognizes how that strategy failed and are not trying to caucus with liberals except for in strategic circumstances.
The spoiler effect is exaggerated. Take me for example, I haven’t voted for an establishment party for fourteen years (at the state and national level). If there wasn’t a psl id vote some other third party that is as close to my ideals as possible. If there were no third parties id write in.
People aren’t saying “gosh, I just want someone a little better than the democrats” or “these republicans are too woke!” They’re recognizing that those two parties don’t and can’t represent them, maybe less so on the republican side, and choosing to vote third party instead of not voting for that seat.
I’m sure there’s lots of research showing that the spoiler effect is real, but personally speaking, and speaking for people I know who vote third party, and speaking from the experience of door knocking and then working the polls, third party voters aren’t going to be shamed or lectured into voting along mainstream party lines.
But let’s say you’d rather trust the science than some weirdo on the internet, and you believe that third party voters are just democrat voters who aren’t there yet.
Shouldn’t the democrats adopt the policies that entice them?
If third party voters are required to win this election, and they oppose the genocide, shouldn’t the democrats take real tangible steps while in power to stop the genocide and get those votes?
Psl has been working from the ground up. I don’t know what else to say. If you have a chapter near you they’re probably out there.
Things are fucked, I agree with you. There are material reasons why and psl is closer than any party I’ve ever interacted with in terms of recognizing the problem and working towards a solution.
Under no circumstances should anyone even consider voting for the psl at this time. It’s a throwaway vote and hurtful to the chance we have to keep Trump the fuck out of our politics.
The time to have considered them is LONG past. They didn’t do any of the work to make themselves viable. And as the far leftists/socialists like to say-
“The onus isn’t on the voter to do the work. It’s on the candidate to be electable.” Right?
De la Cruz is not electable, because there has been zero work towards any viability.
Harris IS electable. She’s campaigning. She’s interviewing. She’s debating. She has a good chance to win. Her policy is sound and believably possible in a real world. She has a track record of being politically astute and educated.
De la Cruz is nobody.
Don’t listen to this shit that the bullshit psl is here for anything other than to disrupt an election.
Why aren’t you trying to improve the system between elections? It’s clear you understand the flaws of First past the post voting. Why haven’t you been doing something about the spoiler effect you are so very concerned with?
How do you know I’m not?