I compared the debate around this. Last year there was a whole struggle session about Baristas because some people considered them non-productive labor and therefore not “working class”.
The Marx quote is not a direct comparison because police as we know them today did not exist during the time of Marx’s life. However the passage matches the characteristics of police as we know them today.
Why are you allowed to extrapolate from what Marx and Engels say but I can’t?
The Engels quote you posted is saying that the working class of pre-capitalist economies were not proletarian, because the proletariat is specifically the working class of the capitalist economy.
Of course! This was written in 1847, he could only look at the past and compare it to the present. We can also look at the past and compare it to the present. If we think that the service economy workers aren’t proletarian that is fine but they are obviously working class, just a different kind of working class. But it doesn’t sound like you think that. There are other people who do think that and will also use Marx and Lenin to back up their argumentation which seems based on the productive vs non-productive labor line.
Service workers who are payed a wage by a capitalist are proletarian. Service work is productive labor. The capitalist is extracting value from their labor.
Whether a barista is proletarian is entirely situational. Some baristas are proletarian. If a barista works for starbucks for example, then they are proletarian. If a barista works for themself and owns the coffee shop, then they are artisan, small business owner, petite bourgeoisie, middle class, etc. Baristas do not inherently fall into a specific economic class. If you ask, “Is a barista working class?”, if they work for a capitalist, then yes, if they work for themselves, then no. The discussion is pointless because it could be either. Some baristas are working class, some baristas are not working class.
Cops are not service workers. Being a cop is not a service. Cops do not produce any service or commodity. Cops are never working class.
I compared the debate around this. Last year there was a whole struggle session about Baristas because some people considered them non-productive labor and therefore not “working class”.
Why are you allowed to extrapolate from what Marx and Engels say but I can’t?
Of course! This was written in 1847, he could only look at the past and compare it to the present. We can also look at the past and compare it to the present. If we think that the service economy workers aren’t proletarian that is fine but they are obviously working class, just a different kind of working class. But it doesn’t sound like you think that. There are other people who do think that and will also use Marx and Lenin to back up their argumentation which seems based on the productive vs non-productive labor line.
Service workers who are payed a wage by a capitalist are proletarian. Service work is productive labor. The capitalist is extracting value from their labor.
Whether a barista is proletarian is entirely situational. Some baristas are proletarian. If a barista works for starbucks for example, then they are proletarian. If a barista works for themself and owns the coffee shop, then they are artisan, small business owner, petite bourgeoisie, middle class, etc. Baristas do not inherently fall into a specific economic class. If you ask, “Is a barista working class?”, if they work for a capitalist, then yes, if they work for themselves, then no. The discussion is pointless because it could be either. Some baristas are working class, some baristas are not working class.
Cops are not service workers. Being a cop is not a service. Cops do not produce any service or commodity. Cops are never working class.