I encountered someone saying, “I have no problems with a person’s sexual orientation and choice, I have a problem with anyone being openly sexual or flaunting their sexuality in front of me regardless of their choice of orientation.”
I am a card carrying atheist. I was raised in one of the worst fundamental christian extremist groups and now live in near isolation from abandoning it nearly 10 years ago. All sexuality was bottled in my life and surroundings. This is still my comfort zone. A part of me wants to hold on to a similar ethos as the person I mentioned above, but I feel like I’m not very confident it is the right inner philosophical balance either.
I’m partially disabled now, so this is almost completely hypothetical. I am honestly looking to grow in my understanding of personal space and inner morality as it relates to others. Someone enlighten me please. Where does this go, what does it mean to you?
I have a problem with anyone being openly sexual or flaunting their sexuality in front of me regardless of their choice of orientation.
A straight couple walks past pushing their baby in a pram
“How dare they flaunt their sexuality at me!”
Well, the attitude of the person you encountered is problematic for a few reasons. The most common is that its almost never applied evenly due to the sexualization of queer bodies; two straight people holding hands or flirting or is fine, but a queer couple doing the same is “flaunting their sexuality”. To some, a trans woman just existing is “flaunting sexuality” due to how theyve been trained to think of and conceptualize trans women.
But assuming the person isnt a hypocrite, its still problematic, because what theyre talking about is a large range of behaviors, ranging from “no sex in public but kissing etc is ok” to shomer negiah to full segregation based on sex. Many (tho not all!) humans are sexual beings with sexual desires and motivations. To say that they cannot express that aspect of themselves in public at all is to prevent them from being their full selves in public. Thats not to say that people should be able to just have sex whereever they want, but that people should be able to express the feeling “i like and am attracted to you” in public (within the bounds of consenting adults, of course).
Many (tho not all!) humans are sexual beings with sexual desires and motivations.
Thanks for the acknowledgment of asexual people like me 😊
Assuming people actually apply the attitude consistently instead of only to non-straight people, I’m not sure what to think, honestly. There are always going to be people who are made uncomfortable by PDA from any couple, including straight couples. Back when straight was default I knew people who would react unhappily to a straight couple making out and even basic kissing was really pushing it. It seems somehow callous to condemn these people if they apply this standard to everyone equally, it feels like saying “your discomfort is wrong, fix it and stop being so sensitive.” But I also understand that often, if something won’t make a majority of people uncomfortable and isn’t disrespectful/actively harmful it’s usually the responsibility of the uncomfortable person to remove themselves from the situation.
Social norms have conditioned me into not finding a couple groping each other in public a socially acceptable thing, even if I don’t feel any discomfort with it. The only taboo against displays of affection that I think lies in something other than making people feel uneasy is “no sex in public” because of all the fluids produced. If not cleaned up well and quickly, it sounds ripe for infecting people who unknowingly, say, sit on the same bench someone had sex on. Especially if they have a small cut on the back of their thigh, and it touches where the fluids were… Same logic as “use a toilet, don’t go in public.” No biohazards in public please.
I’m totally fine with any PDA that isn’t actual sex in public, and the sex reservation is only because of the concern I mentioned above for STDs. I’m making a lot of devil’s advocate arguments against my own perspective because I also want to respect others’ comfort levels and I’m not sure where exactly the line should be drawn.
I think one issue here is that discomfort is subjective. Discomfort is valid and an important way to gauge how we treat people. But its important to understand why someone is uncomfortable.
For example, if someone is uncomfortable with me talking super loud in a small room, then the solution would probably not be to change my tone of voice or the topic I’m talking about. Its the volume thats bringing them discomfort.
If someone is uncomfortable with others kissing in public, we might argue that its reasonable not to kiss in public for their comfort.
But what’s the real cause of discomfort with two men kissing? Is it the kissing or their very existence? If two people loving each other brings someone discomfort because this person just doesn’t aprove of their lifestyle, what’s the solution, then?
The comfort they are likely seeking is to never have to acknowledge that others are different from them. And they can only get that by limiting the freedom of those “others”.
I should probably clarify that I’m thinking of people who are uncomfortable with PDA from any couple, people who would be equally unhappy with a man and a woman kissing as a man and a man. Not people who are okay with PDA from straight couples but not from gay people.
i think this is a great discussion topic, thank you for bringing it up! i should preface this also by saying that my perspective comes from that of a sex averse/repulsed asexual- so in both real life and tv/books/fiction, i get uncomfortable by sexual topics generally speaking. this does extend to some forms of PDA for couples of all orientation as well, though i should clarify that i have no issue with what consenting adults do in their homes, as that is not my business.
others have already pointed out that the exact phrase you included tends to unfairly target queer people, so i will touch on it as though it were being equally applied to straight and queer people. if others being sexual in public makes you uncomfortable, there is nothing wrong with staying in that mindset in my opinion, especially if it is your comfort zone as is. while moving out of it could be personally beneficial if possible (not being uncomfortable is more pleasant than being uncomfortable), it’s not morally wrong to be uncomfortable. don’t let anyone make you believe otherwise.
while passing judgement on others for being sexual in public is a separate topic, and one many here would say is immoral, idk how to feel. i really try not to judge others for PDA, but if it’s like, really intense… i think it’d be lying to say i don’t judge others at all for it. but i don’t think that’s objectively morally wrong or something, i just have my own quiet opinions and keep them to myself. that’s okay too.
Many comments were about the side topic of public PDA. I think another way to view consent is from the angle of the basic human need for autonomy (choice). We all have a right to decide when we want to be sexually stimulated or not. What stimulates pleasant sensations for one person may stimulate unpleasant sensations for another. There is a continuum that is highly situationally dependent. Society tries to work around this by setting clear expectations around perceived sexual stimulation. What is expected on Paris streets is different from what is expected in Chicago. What is expected on a beach in Spain is quite different than what is expected on a beach in Maine. (While public nudity isn’t inherantly sexual, some may find it titillating if not accustomed). We get into trouble when the expectations are not clear, not well communicated to outsiders, there are people who intentionally try to act outside of what is expected, or a person’s individual proclivity isn’t a good match for what is expected.
If you want to become more open to sexuality, consider the truth that “whenever I am upset, I have the opportunity to become curious and increase my awareness”. Change comes from awareness. Since you encounted sexual neglect (purity culture?) as a child, you may benefit from EMDR therapy to help unravel and heal. A book that was transformative for me is “Enjoy Sex (How, when and if you want to) A Practical and Inclusive Guide by Meg-John Barker”.
so like, i also had a very christian upbringing, tho i moved past a lot (not all! it took work to shed all that garbage) of those teachings on gender and sexuality thru coming to terms with being trans. like, living without the burden of christian morality and guilt is incredibly freeing.
bringing this around to pda. i also used to find it off-putting, but it really isn’t about you, its ok for human beings to be affectionate with each other, and this is usually only applied to gay people anyway, are you uncomfortable when you see someone hug their grandparents at the airport?
also, a lot of humans are sexual beings, like there really is no reason to object to people being open about their orientation that isn’t based in religious bullshit.
I have trouble getting past some of it too. I don’t get out much. Sometimes it feels like being uncomfortable is also not knowing what happens if I was not hiding behind the no PDA wall. Coming to terms with this is kinda what I hope to accomplish here, I just don’t know how to say it in a very good way. Honestly, this community is probably the only place I would dare try. Thanks for that.
If 2 people were having sex on a table in a restaurant, that would be unacceptable. If a parent kissed their child goodbye while dropping them of at daycare, that would be acceptable. Everything else is somewhere in between. The challenge is where to draw the line and is it applied evenly.
If a parent and child can hold hands, can a hetero couple? If so, can a gay couple? Where do you draw the line, and who draws the line for all of society?
I draw the line at a hetero couple entering a shop with the guy keeping his hand shoved down the girl’s pants. That’s just unsanitary.
Wouldn’t have a problem with some nudists with towels, though.
