It’s pretty hard to learn another language as an American unless you’re able to travel to a place where that is used. I wasn’t even allowed to take a foreign language class when I was in high school because I scored too poorly on English in grade school (from not doing homework, not because of aptitude). I haven’t really had a need for it in my adult life either other than like 3 times where I had Spanish speaking customers when I worked at in retail and we still managed to overcome the language barrier.
I don’t get the downvotes here. Learning a language is not easy without immersion. Yes you can bang through literature and even multiple courses… but without frequent use our brains simply lose the connection. Neurons that fire together wire together. This goes doubly for speech.
Many Americans (most?) are taught a second language in school but the lack of places to use it sees this education go to waste. The US is a large country with pockets of ethnic groups throughout - but as far as immersion with another language goes… it is sorely lacking.
It’s a lot about motivation. I’m sure many people have tried to learn a language, maybe on Duolingo or somewhere else. But as the initial excitement wears off, they give up. And that’s normal, that’s how most of us are built. You can’t beat brain chemistry with sweet arguments that “it’s good to know another language.” There needs to be a strong incentive from the outside, like school when the second language is mandatory, or life in another country with no access to a community that speaks your language. With the internet, that’s nearly impossible nowadays. There are a lot of expats who never assimilate in countries like Germany because in places like Berlin English will do. So I totally understand people from the US, who have limited access to other languages and cultures, plus whenever they go people speak English.
The internet argument goes both ways however: you can never leave your house and be able to interact with people from virtually anywhere, as well as consume content in any language.
I don’t think it does. Yes, you can use it both ways. However, my point was that if there’s no strong outside motivation pushing you towards learning the language, it’s challenging to force yourself to do so. Furthermore, one must reach the level where they can interact with native speakers first. At the beginning, your vocabulary is limited, you don’t know grammar rules, slang is not typically available in a dictionary. The initial desire to learn a language often wanes before reaching that level, as it’s difficult for most people due to our brains’ focus on short-term survival and benefits.
I live in a post-Soviet country with a large Russian-speaking community. Most Russians I know who eventually learned the official language of my country did so under specific circumstances: they attended a kindergarten without Russian children, were enlisted in the army, found employment where they couldn’t use Russian or English, etc. Conversely, those who do not speak the official language typically never faced a pressing need to do so. The notion of “it would be good to learn X” is usually insufficient to motivate us to work hard for years to become proficient in another language.
Of course, there are exceptions, but they do not represent the norm.
My dad knows some Spanish so he helped me practice but I passed with a good grade. I could not tell you one thing in Spanish. It was hard but kind of fun
Hopefully my several thoughts and word vomit make sense
Yep. That is the moment where, if you could say bike to Spain or Mexico (or a town that spoke it with some frequency,) you could make that knowledge more permanent. A lot of people have nowhere to use it and that knowledge gathers rust over time.
without frequent use our brains simply lose the connection
I just want to say that I’ve been learning an Asian language for over a decade and have retained almost all of it from infrequent immersion. I don’t know how or why, but it sticks!
What I’m trying to say is that you shouldn’t feel discouraged because you think it’s meaningless if you’re not jumping in with both feet every day. Rather, you’re still making some progress even when dipping your toes in occasionally. Trust the process!
I did it in school in rural Ohio before the internet and with very few resources available. Basically anyone can do it. You don’t need immersion. Is it helpful? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Look at how many people live 40+ years in a country and never learn the language; immersion alone does almost nothing.
I think there’s a big myth which I prescribed to back when I was a monolingual English speaker that somehow being “immersed” in a culture is how you become fluent. But my experience has always been that if you can’t understand what anyone’s saying, and are unable to say anything yourself, you just become mute and introverted.
I have no experience with Japanese, but the (in?)famous youtuber MattVsJapan detailed a time when he went to Japan without a base of knowledge and just went back home after every day to watch anime at home, then only really learned how to speak Japanese back in America afterwards. I had a similar experience in Germany — the first few years the only people I really spoke with were other expats and Germans in English.
The only real thing I think being immersed gives you is motivation to learn. But after you’re able to order in a restaurant and read basic signs, that motivation disappears pretty fast as you’re sort of about to just fumble through everything.
On the other hand, people speaking English has seemingly increased massively worldwide, despite the fact that in some countries it would be rare to even encounter an English speaking native. Notably, imo, the countries that are better at it tend to subtitle movies and TV rather than dub. Compare the Nordic countries with Germans, the Greeks vs the French, Koreans vs the Japanese.
It seems pretty clear to me (and I am by no means alone with this assertion) that the main way people learn is through exposure to the language, which is completely different than actually living in a place where you’re “immersed”.
So if you really wanted to learn a language, the best thing you could do is as soon as you’re able to (before, even) watch TV/films and read books in that target language. I think this book is an excellent explanation https://www.tesl-ej.org/books/lomb-2nd-Ed.pdf for German, I started really learning it only after listening to Deutsche Welle learning German radio shows and TV. The modern equivalent is this online TV show for beginners https://learngerman.dw.com/en/hallo/l-37250531 which is great. I learned more in a few episodes like this than I did with two years of formal teaching at school.
Sorry for sort of hijacking your comment, it just caused me to fall down a rabbit hole somewhat :)
Nice question :) A good textbook should go over the sounds in the language comparing them to something in the target audience’s language. This isn’t foolproof (a language YouTuber (Language Jones, I think?) was talking about trying to learn an African language, but the author expected reader to speak South African English where vowels differ from, for instance, US English), but it generally works pretty well. These days, wikipedia is also typically a great resource for reading about sounds in the language. Further, nowadays, you can toss stuff in Google Translate and have it speak. Finally, consume media from that country. When I was learning German, DeutscheWelle had a German-learning mp3 series. Also streaming radio in those days (no Youtube or anything yet).
Edit: and for output, the time-tested technique of shadowing is great. Record yourself if you can because your ears might do better picking up any mistakes when not speaking at the same time.
I find it funny that we both answered the same question and independently mentioned how Deutsche Welle’s Deutsch: Warum nicht? taught us both German :)
I went to high school 20 years ago and it was mandatory to take at least 2 years of another language. My school was extra so they have 4 years available of Spanish/French/German/Japanese/Mandarin. That wasn’t case at every school in our district but they all had Spanish and French.
Yea, I’m older than you then. It wasn’t required when I was in school just strongly suggested (unless they won’t let you like was my case). That said, how many people that learn just those 2 years in high school retain it in adulthood or use it regularly? It’s something that you have to work at and there’s really not much value in that for most of us.
It’s pretty hard to learn another language as an American unless you’re able to travel to a place where that is used
you can always learn Spanish… with over 10% of the population in America already speaking it, it should not be hard to find someone to practice or some content catered to them to practice with
That 10% is mostly clustered in the South or southwest. In my social circle I know one person that’s fluent and one who knows enough to get by and I didn’t meet them until my late 20s. I’ve run across other people here and there but it’s not really common where I live. It’s simply more effort than it’s worth at this point I wouldn’t really gain anything by being bilingual.
Any of the big languages should have a multitude of free online courses available and places to talk to native speakers. These days anyone who wants to learn a second language has the means to do it. It’s difficult, but it’s accessible.
It’s pretty hard to learn another language as an American unless you’re able to travel to a place where that is used. I wasn’t even allowed to take a foreign language class when I was in high school because I scored too poorly on English in grade school (from not doing homework, not because of aptitude). I haven’t really had a need for it in my adult life either other than like 3 times where I had Spanish speaking customers when I worked at in retail and we still managed to overcome the language barrier.
I don’t get the downvotes here. Learning a language is not easy without immersion. Yes you can bang through literature and even multiple courses… but without frequent use our brains simply lose the connection. Neurons that fire together wire together. This goes doubly for speech.
Many Americans (most?) are taught a second language in school but the lack of places to use it sees this education go to waste. The US is a large country with pockets of ethnic groups throughout - but as far as immersion with another language goes… it is sorely lacking.
It’s unfortunate but a reality.
It’s a lot about motivation. I’m sure many people have tried to learn a language, maybe on Duolingo or somewhere else. But as the initial excitement wears off, they give up. And that’s normal, that’s how most of us are built. You can’t beat brain chemistry with sweet arguments that “it’s good to know another language.” There needs to be a strong incentive from the outside, like school when the second language is mandatory, or life in another country with no access to a community that speaks your language. With the internet, that’s nearly impossible nowadays. There are a lot of expats who never assimilate in countries like Germany because in places like Berlin English will do. So I totally understand people from the US, who have limited access to other languages and cultures, plus whenever they go people speak English.
The internet argument goes both ways however: you can never leave your house and be able to interact with people from virtually anywhere, as well as consume content in any language.
I don’t think it does. Yes, you can use it both ways. However, my point was that if there’s no strong outside motivation pushing you towards learning the language, it’s challenging to force yourself to do so. Furthermore, one must reach the level where they can interact with native speakers first. At the beginning, your vocabulary is limited, you don’t know grammar rules, slang is not typically available in a dictionary. The initial desire to learn a language often wanes before reaching that level, as it’s difficult for most people due to our brains’ focus on short-term survival and benefits.
I live in a post-Soviet country with a large Russian-speaking community. Most Russians I know who eventually learned the official language of my country did so under specific circumstances: they attended a kindergarten without Russian children, were enlisted in the army, found employment where they couldn’t use Russian or English, etc. Conversely, those who do not speak the official language typically never faced a pressing need to do so. The notion of “it would be good to learn X” is usually insufficient to motivate us to work hard for years to become proficient in another language.
Of course, there are exceptions, but they do not represent the norm.
Too add on
I took a Spanish class in high school
My dad knows some Spanish so he helped me practice but I passed with a good grade. I could not tell you one thing in Spanish. It was hard but kind of fun
Hopefully my several thoughts and word vomit make sense
Yep. That is the moment where, if you could say bike to Spain or Mexico (or a town that spoke it with some frequency,) you could make that knowledge more permanent. A lot of people have nowhere to use it and that knowledge gathers rust over time.
I just want to say that I’ve been learning an Asian language for over a decade and have retained almost all of it from infrequent immersion. I don’t know how or why, but it sticks!
What I’m trying to say is that you shouldn’t feel discouraged because you think it’s meaningless if you’re not jumping in with both feet every day. Rather, you’re still making some progress even when dipping your toes in occasionally. Trust the process!
I did it in school in rural Ohio before the internet and with very few resources available. Basically anyone can do it. You don’t need immersion. Is it helpful? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Look at how many people live 40+ years in a country and never learn the language; immersion alone does almost nothing.
How do you know you’re pronouncing things correctly without native speakers to converse with?
I think there’s a big myth which I prescribed to back when I was a monolingual English speaker that somehow being “immersed” in a culture is how you become fluent. But my experience has always been that if you can’t understand what anyone’s saying, and are unable to say anything yourself, you just become mute and introverted.
I have no experience with Japanese, but the (in?)famous youtuber MattVsJapan detailed a time when he went to Japan without a base of knowledge and just went back home after every day to watch anime at home, then only really learned how to speak Japanese back in America afterwards. I had a similar experience in Germany — the first few years the only people I really spoke with were other expats and Germans in English.
The only real thing I think being immersed gives you is motivation to learn. But after you’re able to order in a restaurant and read basic signs, that motivation disappears pretty fast as you’re sort of about to just fumble through everything.
On the other hand, people speaking English has seemingly increased massively worldwide, despite the fact that in some countries it would be rare to even encounter an English speaking native. Notably, imo, the countries that are better at it tend to subtitle movies and TV rather than dub. Compare the Nordic countries with Germans, the Greeks vs the French, Koreans vs the Japanese.
It seems pretty clear to me (and I am by no means alone with this assertion) that the main way people learn is through exposure to the language, which is completely different than actually living in a place where you’re “immersed”.
So if you really wanted to learn a language, the best thing you could do is as soon as you’re able to (before, even) watch TV/films and read books in that target language. I think this book is an excellent explanation https://www.tesl-ej.org/books/lomb-2nd-Ed.pdf for German, I started really learning it only after listening to Deutsche Welle learning German radio shows and TV. The modern equivalent is this online TV show for beginners https://learngerman.dw.com/en/hallo/l-37250531 which is great. I learned more in a few episodes like this than I did with two years of formal teaching at school.
Sorry for sort of hijacking your comment, it just caused me to fall down a rabbit hole somewhat :)
Nice question :) A good textbook should go over the sounds in the language comparing them to something in the target audience’s language. This isn’t foolproof (a language YouTuber (Language Jones, I think?) was talking about trying to learn an African language, but the author expected reader to speak South African English where vowels differ from, for instance, US English), but it generally works pretty well. These days, wikipedia is also typically a great resource for reading about sounds in the language. Further, nowadays, you can toss stuff in Google Translate and have it speak. Finally, consume media from that country. When I was learning German, DeutscheWelle had a German-learning mp3 series. Also streaming radio in those days (no Youtube or anything yet).
Edit: and for output, the time-tested technique of shadowing is great. Record yourself if you can because your ears might do better picking up any mistakes when not speaking at the same time.
I find it funny that we both answered the same question and independently mentioned how Deutsche Welle’s
Deutsch: Warum nicht?taught us both German :)I don’t remember exactly which resource it was anymore. I did also use a lot of Deutschlernen mit Nachtrichten
Yeah… this is incredibly dated.
I went to high school 20 years ago and it was mandatory to take at least 2 years of another language. My school was extra so they have 4 years available of Spanish/French/German/Japanese/Mandarin. That wasn’t case at every school in our district but they all had Spanish and French.
This was public school.
Yea, I’m older than you then. It wasn’t required when I was in school just strongly suggested (unless they won’t let you like was my case). That said, how many people that learn just those 2 years in high school retain it in adulthood or use it regularly? It’s something that you have to work at and there’s really not much value in that for most of us.
you can always learn Spanish… with over 10% of the population in America already speaking it, it should not be hard to find someone to practice or some content catered to them to practice with
That 10% is mostly clustered in the South or southwest. In my social circle I know one person that’s fluent and one who knows enough to get by and I didn’t meet them until my late 20s. I’ve run across other people here and there but it’s not really common where I live. It’s simply more effort than it’s worth at this point I wouldn’t really gain anything by being bilingual.
Any of the big languages should have a multitude of free online courses available and places to talk to native speakers. These days anyone who wants to learn a second language has the means to do it. It’s difficult, but it’s accessible.