So I have a question I sort of posted in there too but figure I’ll bring the conversation over here (in a more respectful way)
These are called spotters/marksman and they have them at football games, the Olympics, presumably political events, etc. to handle the threat of suicide bombers and other mass-population terrorist threats
How should we handle these threats without police intervention/snipers to quickly take out a bomber?
Looking for civil discourse if at all possible, but I also understand this is a high stakes discussion and directly affects some more than others
Edit: Asks a legitimate question, without ulterior motives, literally just trying to steer the conversation to a productive, constructive discussion: is bombarded with bad faith arguments, downvotes, accused of being down right disingenuous, and minimal attempts (1 as of this edit) to actually address the conversation. Psychotic experience this was.
“These threats” what threat?? People protesting? These snipers have never once protected protestors from the violent freaks that show up to run people over or shoot people.
The tensions about israel/palestine are real. Theres a non zero chance that someone who is very pro-israel and very unhinged might decide the pro-palestinians need shooting. You know how I know this? Because this is an American school, people get shot because someone feels that they need to shoot some people, they dont need a wildly divisive issue to spur them on. One anonymous email talking about how the “terrorist supporters are going to get whats coming to them” and the school/police have to do something. If they do nothing and it does happen everyone will be screaming that “They were warned and did nothing! They wanted this to happen!”
They can want the protests to go away (or make them) AND not want to deal with the bad press of failing to at least pretend to protect them on campus. Even if the protest is unauthorised by administration they still dont want " Nothing was done to prevent OSU mass shooting by police or administration" to be a headline.
Both things can be true, but that doesn’t really make it better? Both are completely self serving reasons that trample on the constitutional rights of the students.
From my point of view/questioning, it’s the threat of suicide bombers and other terrorist efforts (acid, dirty bombs, driving through a crowd of people) when it comes to protesting middle eastern matters in the states. Hell we have American terrorists doing terrorism here too, how do we better prevent that or are we stuck only responding?
This is a complete distraction. The only people spilling protestors’ blood on American soil right now are cops. And your response to it is to try to justify why they need intimidation snipers on top of that?? Absolutely not.
That was answered, like several times. I don’t care about the intent (from ether party), but what does grind my gears is the wilfully ignoring any answer that does not fit the weird fear mongering position that this guy is here to protect anyone:
And your response to a credible threat that is solved with the exact same means at other public gatherings, is to not use them, because you feel safe without them? If you apply this way of thinking to other security measures, why would you have a lock at the door? People won’t steal from you (until they actually do because you didn’t have a lock in your door)
This isn’t even true (we literally just had several parades/protests where a driver DROVE through the fucking crowd), you completely dodge my question, and then in bad faith tried to paint me like I’m some sort of crazy person who thinks intimidation is somehow a good idea.
I’m done with this conversation. I don’t have to tolerate bad faith arguments when I’ve repeatedly shown I want to have civil discourse. Next time, don’t respond if you can’t act like an adult and treat someone who’s trying to improve themselves and act like an adult.
OK, dude wringing his hands about what if someone brings in a dirty bomb while cops bash in heads. 🙄 The grandstanding like I didn’t bring up violent freaks running over and shooting protestors first is a cute touch, too.
If you want to be treated as a serious person to have a serious conversation with then be fucking serious.
I’ve repeatedly said that cops using snipers/spotters is not a good solution, and that cops are part of the problem, but okay believe whatever lies you wanna tell yourself I suppose. Thats your prerogative
Actual prevention of terrorism comes by building a just society. People who have basic needs, healthcare, education, and justice do not become terrorists.
And how do you expect a sharpshooter team to stop a suicide bomber, acid attack, or dirty bomb? Even stopping a crowd-driving-maniac would require significant luck. This isn’t an action movie.
I never made this claim… I was asking the question literally, which you answered and lead with, before going back to say I was implying something else. I’m confused how we ended up here, but I think we both agree that snipers are a threatening, and apparently not that effective means to prevent these things from happening. And even in reacting, snipers are overkill.
dirty bombs are movie plot threat, bombers, suicide or not are not an issue in usa because alternatives are more easily available. your take sounds weird and disingenuous
We’ve had several bombings, including suicide bombers in the us. Not everything is pushed into the news cycle by the media state because “it encourages copy cats” or whatever other bullshit they’ll come up with to only report what they want to push.
San Bernardino Attack (2015): 14 people were killed and 22 were seriously injured (mass shooting and attempted bombing)
Boston Marathon Bombing (2013): 3 people killed and injuring several hundred, including 16 who lost limbs. (bombing)
Times Square Car Bomb Attempt (2010): Attempted car bombing, non injured
Your take is just fear mongering and pushing the narrative that the police in the US are being militarized to protect people. You are talking about a 14 year period where 18 people died from 2 successful attacks, and hundreds injured. A stat line that is eclipsed by the number of people killed and injured by police every year. In case you are wondering that would be >600 killed and 250,000 injured per year.
It’s very obvious you aren’t even reading my comments anymore, I think we can be done now. I’m not going to participate in bad faith discussions. Obvious troll at this point. See ya.
The fact you Americans think this is normal for a protest says more then anything I can comment.
A good test is to think of a private entitiy doing this and if that passes the smell test. I don’t think deploying snipers at events has ever saved anyone (correct me if I am missing an incident) and in this case if they are there to protect the students why does the school not hire their own sharpshooters?
You bring up a good point. The prevention part - snipers are seemingly ineffective. The reaction/response portion however, does point to guns being used to prevent further damage. 2016 dallas shooting - police used a bomb to take out the shooter after the fact. LA airport shooting in 2013 - taken down with regular guns.
Overall, I think you make a good point, they’re ineffective at prevention, and even response can be handled w/o the need of long range or automatic weapons. There’s always the argument that “well there aren’t any attacks because we have these” that I can see people making but that feels fallacious somehow, just not sure how exactly.
I am still left to wonder, how do you actually prevent the bombing and other attacks from happening. What is effective?
I think you might be mistaken as to the point of the police being on site. Its not really the job of police to protect (and extra so for protesters). The risk of a terror attack on any large group of people is a weak excuse for this sort of response from police.
Something about those who give up liberty for safety deserve nether…
I sorta agree, but wanted to ask for some clarification - what liberties do you see being given up here? They didn’t really take anything away, they were just there. It’s definitely intimidating, and nobody trusts the police (for good reason, namely lack of appropriate oversight, action, and training) but I can’t see how anything was taken away or given up here for the illusion of saftey that the snipers would hypothetically be providing, know what I mean?
You have normalized a police state where as a people you now think it is normal to have things like sniper teams set up at all major events with a lot of people. This has been done as you have stated; “to handle the threat of suicide bombers and other mass-population terrorist threats” even though sniper teams have almost no ability to stop or even just not make the situation considerably worse.
The thing about trading liberties for extra safety is not only about the liberties lost but that it is a fools journey since the things done for safety are more likely to be ether useless, or just bad (think TSA vs militarizing the police).
You are not stopping a mass casualty event at the time and place of the event itself but well before it. This show of force is just control, theatre, a waste of taxpayer money and in the worst case the cause (ironically enough) of a mass casualty event.
Dude I’m not gonna repeat myself. Go through my comments. I’ve said time in and time out that I don’t agree with this practice. Why is this so hard for people to grasp lol
Edit: And you didn’t even answer my question:
what liberties are lost by having these snipers there
I did answer you question and have been the only person willing to engage with you politely. So I will break it down at a lower level, all caps:
YOU DO NOT STOP MASS SHOOTINGS BY SENDING ARMED GOONS.
YOU HAVE TO STOP THESE THINGS BEFORE THE EVENT NOT DURING.
YOU HAVE ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS POINTING LOADED FIREARMS AT PEOPLE WHO ARE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. THIS HAS REMOVED THE LIBERTY OF THE STUDENTS BY CHILLING THE ABILITY TO PROTEST (A RIGHT) AND ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED ASSOCIATION WITH PEOPLE WHO SHARE THE SAME POLITICAL VIEWS (THIS IS ALSO COVERED IN YOUR CONSTITUTION).
The very idea you could not pick up on the liberties at direct risk here has me thinking you are ether so oppressed that you don’t even know what basic human freedom is, or more likely you are not arguing in good faith and know full well what is going on.
No one (other then I guess your police and governor) wants this stupid, useless, dangerous, Patriot act level show of force.
Edit: And I for one will repeat myself, over and over in different ways since you have stated no one has addressed your question when after reading the replies, they have, and done so in many nuanced and different ways. It just happens no one has given you the answer you are fishing for.
I’ve been saying this repeatedly (I literally just said it to you in the prior comment but you’re ignoring it ig? Who’s fishing for responses?) I don’t believe in the practice of using intimidation as a deterrent. Especially when it comes to weapons that can kill someone (and probably multiple people at once) instantaneously.
How do we prevent this from happening (this is the question I’m asking repeatedly and the question that only one person responded to directly, and who’s solution was to “create a just society” which I don’t need to tell you is incredibly vague and utopian.) Again. My question is how do we prevent this from happening
This is a threatening action, agreed. This does not remove our liberty to peacefully protest, but it creates an unjustly hostile/threatening environment. That I agree with (see point 1)
Stop assuming I’m being an assholr on purpose when I’ve very obviously for ACAB, understand the police state problem, and am trying to have civil conversation despite being accused of being some Tucker Carlson crayon muncher. That’s bad faith. Assuming the worst of me, is bad faith.
My frustrations are valid. Your attempts to gaslight me into some kind of troll, when all I’m trying to do (as a “good liberal”) is to get to the fucking bottom of things and have a civil conversation about police reform, is dangerous.
The tolerant don’t need to tolerate trolls, assholes, and other forms of intolerance. That’s why I was fine with not repeating myself. Not for lack of effort or care, but because this is lemmy.
Where all the users are anonymous.
And any of one these responses could be from one or multiple troll conservative groups.
If you’d like to continue the conversation in a constructive and respectful way? I’m all for it.
When the bomber intends to die in glory, there is no deterrent possible. Death isn’t any deterrent. It can only be stopped before they get to the scene.
Reeducation or incarceratin of zealots.
Large investment in mental health.
Prosecution of group’s and individuals that call for violence or have violent philosophies.
Reduce access to weapons and materials.
High bounties for reporting suspicious activity or behavior.
Promotion / enforcement of a homogeneous society.
None WILL be done. Many are undesirable. But they can be used to prevent. Does that help you?
Yes absolutely. These are most definitely actionable and are also excellent conversational pieces that can be discussed further, which was all I wanted instead of outrage commenting basically.
I think healthcare in general (including mental health) services would be hugely impactful to the general population.
I also think our educational system is being eroded and a lot of kids are pushed away from continuing education (in any form, not just traditional university which fails a lot of people) in favor of blue collar work
Now I’m not saying blue collar work is bad, but I do think continuing education is important, especially as our life expectancies are increasing. It’s important people stay educated and continue to practice things like the scientific process so that we don’t lose that information and become disinformation spreaders.
Without solid education, we can’t possible expect a “bright” future imo.
What did you mean about the homogenous society? In what ways? Looking forward to any examples/explanation you could give!
In a homogeneous society, everyone has the same background. No differences of traditions, religions, art, music, etc. They all look roughly similar. They have no fuel to make another member into the “other”. As I understand, Iceland has something approaching this. I expect the Sentinalese do, to. The ways to get to this from a large and diverse society are, of course, appalling.
Yeeeeeahhh, not sure if I agree with this one. To me it feels sort of lazy and skirts around the true nature of accepting people for who they are and learning to be more tolerant of people not exactly like us
Sorta feels lazy to say, well let’s get rid of what makes us different/unique.
Nature doesn’t really believe in the homogeneous, I don’t see why we should strive to make it so
I’m sorry people are being so reactionary and taking your questions as being pro sniper or whatever way they’re taking it. Rational discourse is generally better on Lemmy than other places but is still on the Internet, so people don’t actually give anyone credit for trying to be calm and rational about events like these.
And like, to an extent, I understand the outrage. I do.
But if people can’t act like adults, know they need to simmer down a bit before having these conversations, lemmy is in no way better than Reddit. It’s just a Reddit that’s wider and under the control of more people.
This interaction (while in the original thread my words were flung without frontal lobe usage, and that’s entirely my fault) I had hoped to reset after I had apologized but I guess a lot of people were still upset.
Maybe it was my fault. Idk. All I can do is continue to move forward and do better. Simple as that. Thank you for the empathy, I appreciate it.
Oh come now, the point being made is the police ARE THE THREAT. There is no other threat at the level of the armed government goons on site pointing loaded firearms at students. You replied to the answer of your question with “But what about the OTHER threat?” And if you could read just a tiny bit between the lines by the fact that nether you or the person you have replied to have listed another threat (other then general terrorism), maybe you could figure out that there is no threat these police are there to thwart.
How are you gonna put parenthesis around the point that was literally counterpoint to the comment.
They were saying the police were the biggest threat, yet we have repeated terrorist events from regular Americans (not cops as well?)
People died from those incidents. I didn’t even include just injuries or anything like that. Dead. Not pepper spray, not rubber bullets.
Run over.
And eight year old was fucking shot and killed.
To say that police or the only threat to LIFE at these events is just outright disingenuous. period.
There exists real threats that we need to address if we’re ever to pull back our gross reliance on police being some kind of savior figure or whatever bullshit other people believe they are.
All the US needs to do is embrace Peelian principles, but instead it’s a corrupt, power groping free for all.
All the US needs to do is embrace Peelian principles, but instead it’s a corrupt, power groping free for all.
We both know even if taking a more community driven approach like what Peel did in London would take a herculean effort and the public at this point would not likely buy in. Maybe in 50 years.
They were saying the police were the biggest threat, yet we have repeated terrorist events from regular Americans (not cops as well?)
The argument is not that there are not non police risks, its that they pale in comparison (at a degree that the non police risk is so low to almost be a rounding error) to police risks. Also the police have shown over and over in the US they are not willing to protect the public.
There exists real threats that we need to address if we’re ever to pull back our gross reliance on police being some kind of savior figure or whatever bullshit other people believe they are.
Yes, these are the same people you see at football games (although they usually are better hidden).
It is a bad PR move and looks bad for the university - ESPECIALLY a university in Ohio. They should also be more discreet and maybe realize that it looks like a damn gun instead of a scope.
That being said, there may be a protocol that when x number of people are gathered in an area, they have to deploy these people.
I do not think it is wrong to be cautious, or at least have some pieces on the table in case something breaks out.
Which I am sorry to say, could very well happen.
1:5 Americans believe that an act of force is justified. RIght wing or left wing, that could be a terrifying concept if someone motivated by zealous anger to attack a protest they don’t fully understand.
I think there might’ve been a miscommunication - I was referring to the threat being suicide bombers and dirty bombs. How do you stop someone from walking into a crowd, pushing a button, and hurting many innocent people trying to peacefully protest?
I already asked this but I’m gonna repeat it here for clarity, are cops the only people hurting innocent people at protests?
Charlottesville, Virginia (2017): White supremacist drives car into counter protestors
Minneapolis, Minnesota (2020): Tanker truck drives through a crowd of George Floyd protestors.
Seattle, Washington (2020): Police brutality protest, driver drives through a crowd yet again.
New York City, New York (2017): IED sucide bomber inspired by ISIS in the subway.
Portland, Oregon (2020): Several incidents regarding vehicle usage and other violence against George Floyd protestors
Seems not. People are violent and there are threats to peaceful protesters. I am not saying that police snipers are the solution to this threat, and I am not saying cops are innocent, but to try and pretend that the *only *problem is cops, is disingenuous to the innocent people who have died due to hateful people and I’m not going to let you pretend otherwise, knowingly or otherwise.
What a cute list, here is one for the police during only a 6 month period over one large event to show the stark difference between the dangers of strangers and the dangers of police at protests (who I might add where present at all your examples, so what was the point?)
May 27, 2020 Memphis, Tennessee An officer was filmed using his police shield to shove a girl.[9]
May 27, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police fired projectiles at protesters, damaging a woman’s eye.[10]
May 28, 2020 Albuquerque, New Mexico Police fired tear gas at protesters who followed officers as they made arrests.[11]
May 28, 2020 Denver, Colorado Peaceful protesters were gassed by police. Elisabeth Epps, a member of the Denver Police use-of-force committee, resigned her post after she was shot by police projectiles.[12]
May 28, 2020 Houston, Texas A Houston Police Department officer riding a horse was filmed trampling a woman. Mayor Sylvester Turner apologized for the incident.[13][14] The woman later filed a lawsuit against the Houston Police Department and the city of Houston.[15]
May 28, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota An officer in the tail car of a caravan of squad cars was filmed indiscriminately spraying a chemical agent out the window onto bicyclists and people in a crosswalk.[16]
May 28, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota A reporter from the Des Moines Register was pepper sprayed by police.[17]
May 29, 2020 Atlanta, Georgia An officer was filmed using his bicycle to shove a black woman who was protesting.[18]
May 29, 2020 Atlanta, Georgia An officer was filmed body-slamming a woman near Lenox Square Mall. The woman later sued the city of Atlanta.[19]
May 29, 2020 Columbus, Ohio Police fired a non-lethal projectile at a man, striking and shattering his knee.[20]
May 29, 2020 Columbus, Ohio A woman was hit by a police horse. The city of Columbus later agreed to pay $5.75 million to injured protesters.[21]
May 29, 2020 Columbus, Ohio Police pepper-sprayed and shoved a reverend.[21]
May 29, 2020 Columbus, Ohio Police fired a wooden bullet at a woman near a protest, striking her in the chin.[21]
May 29, 2020 Dallas, Texas A CBS news crew was caught in tear gas.[22]
May 29, 2020 Denver, Colorado KMGH-TV news crew reported police targeting them with paintballs and tear gas. Their photographer was shot four times and their camera was destroyed.[23]
May 29, 2020 Denver, Colorado Police fired a sponge-tipped projectile at a protester, hitting her eye.[24]
May 29, 2020 Denver, Colorado Police shot tear gas at a couple in a vehicle waiting at a traffic stop in Denver. When the man came out of the vehicle to confront the officers because his pregnant wife was in the vehicle, the officers ordered him to move along. He refused and the officers opened fire on him and the vehicle with pepper balls.[25]
May 29, 2020 Las Vegas, Nevada 80 people were arrested as police clashed with protesters on the Vegas strip, including two journalists. Charges against the two journalists were later dropped.[26][27]
May 29, 2020 Las Vegas, Nevada Officers were filmed rushing and tackling a protester. The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department said the man was an agitator.[28]
May 29, 2020 Louisville, Kentucky A Louisville Metro Police Department officer was filmed firing pepper balls directly at a WAVE 3 News crew, hitting correspondent Kaitlin Rust and photojournalist James Dobson.[29][23]
May 29, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota CNN journalist Omar Jimenez and his three-person news crew were arrested by a group of Minnesota state police officers while reporting live on protests in response to the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota.[30] According to Jimenez, he was arrested for failing to move back from the position where they were reporting after being ordered to, despite their media credentials being visible and valid, and their agreeing to move where directed.[31][32]
May 29, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Swedish Expressen correspondent Nina Svanberg was shot with a rubber bullet and VG photojournalist Thomas Nilsson had a red laser sight trained on him.[33][34]
May 29, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Journalist and author Linda Tirado was permanently blinded in one eye after police shot her with a non-lethal projectile.[35]
May 29, 2020 New York City, New York New York City Police Department officer Vincent D’Andraia shoved a woman, Dounya Zayer, to the ground at a protest in Brooklyn.[36] The officer was recorded throwing down the protester with both hands while allegedly calling her a “stupid fucking removed”; the protester was hospitalized after the assault and said she suffered a seizure.[37] On June 9, the officer was charged with assault, criminal mischief, harassment and menacing.[38]
May 29, 2020 New York City, New York As police cars drove past protesters, an officer opened his passenger door, causing it to hit a protester. The suspected perpetrator received modified duty.[39]
May 29, 2020 New York City, New York Outside Barclays Center, police were filmed repeatedly striking protesters with clubs after they had fallen on the concrete.[40]
May 29, 2020 Omaha, Nebraska A man was shot in the eye with a pepper ball. A different person was shot by pepper balls in the groin, although it is not known exactly what date this occurred.[41][42]
May 29, 2020 Omaha, Nebraska Police fired tear gas at a line of protesters sitting in the street.[43]
May 29, 2020 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania An officer threw a pepper spray container at a man.[44]
May 29, 2020 San Jose, California San Jose Police Department officer Jared Yuen drew national attention on social media due to videos of his behaviour. Yuen was videoed holding a projectile launcher, telling a protester “Shut up, removed”, then within seconds he leaned around another officer to fire a projectile at close range, which caused a fight. In other videos, Yuen is filmed saying: “Let’s get this motherfucker”, or seen “smirking, licking his lips and rocking back and forth, looking a little too excited to be facing off with protesters”, reported San Jose Inside. The videos were viewed over 10 million times, and thousands called for Yuen’s firing. SJPD chief Eddie Garcia reacted that Yuen “let his emotions get the best of him, and it’s not right”, but he also called Yuen a “kid” and “good cop”, “who has put his life on the line for the city multiple times.” As a result, Yuen was removed from protest duties.[45][46][47]
May 29, 2020 San Jose, California A bias trainer was shot in the groin by riot guns.[48]
May 29, 2020 San Jose, California A former San Jose Planning Commissioner was pushed to the ground and repeatedly shot with impact munitions by police.[49]
May 30, 2020 Albany, New York Police used tear gas after a protest turned violent. Tear gas spread into a nearby home, causing a resident who inhaled some of it to suffer lingering health effects.[50]
May 30, 2020 Atlanta, Georgia Officers from the Atlanta Police Department pulled two black students from their car, broke a car window, and used tasers to shock them. This came after officers arrested a classmate of theirs whom they wanted to pick up; an officer ordered the students to continue driving, which they complied with. One officer claimed that one of the students possessed a gun, but no gun was found. One of the students stated that he was punched over 10 times in the back after being arrested. Within days, six officers were charged as a result of the incident; two were fired and four were put on administrative leave. The Fulton County District Attorney, Paul Howard, stated that the two college students were “innocent almost to the point of being naive”.[51][52][53]
May 30, 2020 Austin, Texas 16-year-old Levi Ayala suffered brain damage after being shot in the head with a less-lethal round by Austin police officer Nicholas Gebhart.[54][55][56] Gebhart and several other officers were later indicted for shooting protesters with non-lethal projectiles.[57]
May 30, 2020 Austin, Texas A deaf man was hit by less-lethal projectiles in the ear and crotch.[58]
May 30, 2020 Chicago, Illinois Journalist Jonathan Ballew was broadcasting the protest when he was allegedly assaulted with a chemical agent.[59]
May 30, 2020 Chicago, Illinois Police attacked actor John Cusack, who was filming the protest.[60]
May 30, 2020 Chicago, Illinois An officer beat a woman in her vehicle and wrongfully arrested her. In 2022 the officer faced dismissal for the incident.[61]
May 30, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio An officer shoved a man from behind with a shield.[62]
May 30, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio A singular protester standing with his hands raised was tear gassed.[62]
May 30, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio Police fired pepper balls at a group of 20 people without warning.[62]
May 30, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio Police shot a man taking photos in the eye with a marking round, causing the man to suffer vision problems. The man filed an excessive force complained but it was ruled not sustained, as the Citizen Complaint Authority was not able to determine which officer fired the round.[63]
May 30, 2020 Cleveland, Ohio A man lost sight in one eye after being hit with a beanbag round.[64]
May 30, 2020 Cleveland, Ohio A sheriff’s deputy fired beanbag round at a man passing out water, hitting him in the back of the head. The same deputy fired a beanbag that blinded a different man on the same date. The man hit with the beanbag round later filed a lawsuit.[65]
May 30, 2020 Columbus, Ohio Columbus Police were filmed pepper spraying Congresswoman Joyce Beatty, Commissioner Kevin Boyce, and Council President Shannon Hardin during a demonstration near the Ohio Statehouse.[66][67]
May 30, 2020 Columbus, Ohio 22-year-old Sarah Grossman was pepper-sprayed at a demonstration and later died in the hospital from what was determined to be natural causes.[68] An autopsy determined that Sarah Grossman died of coronary artery dissection due to Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.[69]
May 30, 2020 Dallas, Texas Journalist Kevin Krause photographed a woman who said she had been walking home with groceries when she was struck in the forehead by a police projectile.[70]
May 30, 2020 Dallas, Texas Brandon Saenz, a 26-year-old black man, was at a protest outside City Hall when he was shot in the face with a non-lethal projectile by police. The projectile shattered the victim’s left eye.[71] In 2022 two of the officers who fired projectiles were indicted on multiple counts.[72]
May 30, 2020 Dayton, Ohio Police fired tear gas and beanbags at protesters. Protesters stated police fired at them without warning, while Dayton’s police chief said projectiles were fired in response to water bottles and rocks being thrown.[73]
May 30, 2020 Denver, Colorado Police shot a protester with a pepperball round, allegedly without provocation, as he filmed them.[74]
May 30, 2020 Denver, Colorado A non-protester was blinded in one eye after being struck by a police projectile. The victim was walking to his car when he was reportedly shot in the eye, drive-by style, by police.[75]
May 30, 2020 Detroit, Michigan As a crowd walked away from police, one individual was assaulted by police, physically and verbally. The protester was tackled by a second officer and sprayed by a third.[76]
May 30, 2020 Detroit, Michigan Police pepper sprayed several reporters.[77]
May 30, 2020 Erie, Pennsylvania A seated 21-year old protester was filmed being kicked to the ground by an officer.[78]
May 30, 2020 Fort Wayne, Indiana A protester was shot in one eye and blinded by police.[79]
May 30, 2020 Fort Wayne, Indiana A three-year-old girl was reported to have been intentionally gassed by police. According to the mother, who was not a protester, the officer “dead-looked at my daughter and threw the canister in front of her and it exploded up into her face.”[80]
May 30, 2020 Grand Rapids, Michigan One officer pepper sprayed a protester and seconds later another fired a tear gas canister into his upper body, hitting him in the shoulder.[81][82][83]
May 30, 2020 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania As people tried to help a fallen protester, they were pepper-sprayed.[84]
May 30, 2020 Kansas City, Missouri Several officers pepper sprayed a man who was yelling at them from the side of the street. Kansas City Police Chief Rick Smith defended the actions.[85]
May 30, 2020 Kansas City, Missouri A man was blinded in one eye after being hit by a police projectile. He later sued the city of Kansas City.[86]
May 30, 2020 Kansas City, Missouri An officer was photographed pepper spraying a man holding a sign above his head.[87]
May 30, 2020 La Mesa, California A protestor was shot by police with a “less-lethal” bean bag round between her eyes.[88]
May 30, 2020 La Mesa, California A woman walking near a protest in front of La Mesa’s police station was shot in the face by a police projectile.[89]
May 30, 2020 La Mesa, California A teenager driving his car near the La Mesa Police station was shot in the head by non-lethal projectiles.[90]
May 30, 2020 Las Vegas, Nevada A videographer sued the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, alleging officers smacked his phone out of his hands and dragged him out of his car.[91]
May 30, 2020 Lawrenceville, Georgia A Gwinnett County Police officer punched a protester lying on the ground.[92]
May 30, 2020 Los Angeles, California Two protesters standing in a deserted street were shot by police rubber bullets.[93]
May 30, 2020 Los Angeles, California An officer shoved a reporter from behind, causing her to trip and hit her head on a fire hydrant.[94]
May 30, 2020 Los Angeles, California Police struck protesters with batons.[95]
May 30, 2020 Los Angeles, California A protester was struck in the face by a rubber bullet.[96]
May 30, 2020 Louisville, Kentucky A protester was shot in the back of the head by non-lethal projectiles. The man later filed a lawsuit against Louisville Police and State Police.[97]
May 30, 2020 Manassas, Virginia Virginia Delegate Lee Carter was hit by flash-bangs three times, twice while walking away.[98]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota A group of 20 Minneapolis police were filmed marching down a residential street, ordering people on their front porches to go inside. After a few demands, one of the officers shouted “light 'em up!” and marker rounds were shot at them.[99]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police forced a reporter to the ground and pepper-sprayed him.[100]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Veteran news photographer Tom Aviles was shot with a rubber-bullet and arrested.[101]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police targeted a CBS news crew and strike a member with non-lethal projectiles.[102]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota On May 30 and 31, Minnesota law enforcement slashed the tires of unoccupied vehicles parked near protests. Video of the incidents showed indiscriminate slashing of every vehicle in a Kmart parking lot. Several journalists were affected by the event. The Minnesota State Patrol and the Anoka County Sheriff’s Department admitted on June 8 to slashing tires. The Minnesota Department of Public Safety, which oversees the State Patrol stated that tires were slashed in “a few locations”, “in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously”. The Department further stated that some targeted vehicles contained potentially harmful items, to which Snopes commented that there appeared to be a logical “disconnect behind the idea of cutting tires when threatening objects were allegedly located inside” the vehicle.[103][104]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police fired rubber bullets at a Swiss team of reporters.[105]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police fired rubber bullets at a Reuters news crew.[106]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police hit a journalist in the shin with a rubber bullet.[100]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota An officer maced a photojournalist in the face.[107]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police in an unmarked vehicle encountered 27-year-old Jaleel Stallings and several others guarding a gas station from looting in defiance of the curfew warning. Police fired rubber bullets at the group without warning or announcing themselves as police. Stallings returned fire with actual bullets, but surrendered when police identified themselves. Police beat Stallings for roughly 30 seconds after he surrendered. Stallings was charged with multiple charges including attempted murder but was acquitted in July 2021.[108][109]
In late 2022, Justin Stetson, one of the officers who beat Stallings was charged with third-degree assault.[110] On May 8, 2023, prosecutors offered Stetson a plea deal allowing him to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and avoid jail time, which Stallings objected to.[111] Nonetheless, a judge accepted the plea agreement. Stenson pleaded guilty to third-degree assault and one count of misconduct as a public officer, with the condition he never work as a police officer in Minnesota again.[112] Stenson had already taken a disability retirement in August 2022 and the plea did not affect his state pension.[111]
May 30, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Officers from the Saint Paul Police Department used tear gas and less lethal projectiles to prevent a crowd of protesters from crossing the Lake Street-Marshall Bridge from Minneapolis to Saint Paul.[113]
May 30, 2020 New York City, New York Two NYPD vehicles were recorded ramming into protesters[114] In April 2022 an oversight agency recommended discipline be taken against the officers involved.[115]
May 30, 2020 New York City, New York An officer approached a protester, ripped off the protester’s mask, and pepper-sprayed the protester in the face.[36]
May 30, 2020 New York City, New York A medical worker at the Kings County Hospital Center left work and came across officers chasing an individual, and began to record the incident. Officers began to beat the worker for about 90 seconds, causing bruises and a head wound that required seven staples to close.[116]
May 30, 2020 New York City, New York An officer arrested and struck a Huffington Post reporter with a baton after the reporter insulted the officer.[94]
May 30, 2020 Oakland, California A reporter was hit in the thigh by a rubber bullet.[77]
May 30, 2020 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania A police officer was filmed repeatedly striking a journalist with club.[117]
May 30, 2020 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania A SEPTA Police officer struck two protesters with a baton. The officer was fired in July 2020 and indicted on assault charges in October of that year.[118]
May 30, 2020 Phoenix, Arizona A photographer was hit in the head and back by police projectiles.[119]
May 30, 2020 Raleigh, North Carolina Police fired gas and non-lethal projectiles at protesters.[120]
May 30, 2020 Reno, Nevada Police shot a legal observer from the American Civil Liberties Union with rubber bullets.[121]
May 30, 2020 Richmond, Virginia Police sprayed a man through the window of his home as he recorded them.[122]
May 30, 2020 Rochester, New York Police fired pepper balls and tear gas canisters at a group of people following the damaging of several police cars.[123]
May 30, 2020 Rockford, Illinois Police struck a protester with batons and threw him to the ground. The Rockford Police Department stated that a board of police officials determined all officers had acted appropriately.[124]
May 30, 2020 Salem, Oregon Police used tear gas on protesters after curfew. Prior to the tear gas a police officer was filmed telling armed members of a right-wing group to leave the sidewalk and go inside so “it doesn’t look like we are playing favorites.”[125]
May 30, 2020 Salt Lake City, Utah During a live news broadcast, police were filmed shoving an elderly man, causing him to fall to the pavement.[126] The District Attorney decided not to press charges against the officer, saying the man himself did not support criminal charges.[127]
May 30, 2020 Salt Lake City, Utah An officer was filmed firing a beanbag gun at a man lying on the ground with his hands in the air. A spokesman for the Salt Lake City Police Department said the officer was not one of theirs.[128]
May 30, 2020 San Antonio, Texas A protester filmed as police shot him twice with less-lethal projectiles without physical provocation.[129]
May 30, 2020 Santa Monica, California A news crew was hit with tear gas.[77]
May 30, 2020 Seattle, Washington A seven-year-old child was maced by police, with the aftermath documented by a viral video. Hours after the protest, Seattle police arrested the person who recorded the video.[130]
May 30, 2020 Seattle, Washington An officer placed his knee on the back of the neck of a suspect; after onlookers shouted for him to remove his knee from the man’s neck, his partner pulled it off.[131]
May 30, 2020 Toledo, Ohio Police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters.[132]
May 31, 2020 Austin, Texas A pregnant woman was shot by police with projectile.[133]
May 31, 2020 Austin, Texas 20-year-old African American Texas State University student Justin Howell was shot in the head with a less lethal bean bag round by an Austin Police Department officer while protesting outside the police headquarters in Austin, Texas. Fellow protesters were instructed by police to carry the injured Howell toward them for medical aid, however, those protesters were then also fired upon by police. Howell was left in critical condition, with a fractured skull and brain damage.[134][135] The officer who shot Howell was later indicted for the shooting.[136]
May 31, 2020 Austin, Texas A woman was shot with lead pellets. Nine officers were later charged in connection with the incident.[58][136]
May 31, 2020 Austin, Texas An officer shot a protester with a beanbag projectile as he walked away. The officer was later indicted for the shooting.[136]
May 31, 2020 Boston, Massachusetts Boston Police were criticized for use of pepper spray during the protests. In one instance, a man with his hands up was pepper sprayed by several officers.[137]
May 31, 2020 Boston, Massachusetts Multiple people claimed police struck them with batons despite having their hands raised. Four people filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the city of Boston and three Boston Police officers.[138]
May 31, 2020 Charleston, South Carolina A kneeling protester was arrested after telling police “I love each and every one of you. I cry at night, because I feel your pain.”[139]
May 31, 2020 Chattanooga, Tennessee Police threw two protesters to the ground and handcuffed them after they pulled on a banner.[140]
May 31, 2020 Chattanooga, Tennessee Sheriff’s deputies threw tear gas from a courthouse balcony. According to Chattanooga Police, they had not been informed that the Sheriff’s Office would be using tear gas.[140]
May 31, 2020 Chicago, Illinois Outside Brickyard Mall, police were filmed swarming a car, smashing its windows, and pulling an occupant to the ground. An investigation was opened.[141]
May 31, 2020 Chicago, Illinois Chicago Police Board President Ghian Foreman claimed that officers struck him multiple times with batons.[142]
May 31, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio Police arrested a tattoo artist and pushed him against a window after curfew. The artist was painting a mural on a building with the owner’s permission and was otherwise uninvolved in the protests.[143]
May 31, 2020 Columbia, South Carolina A protester filed a federal lawsuit after he was hit by tear gas and rubber bullets, the latter of which hit his back.[144]
May 31, 2020 Compton, California A deputy held a man’s head down with a knee, while another repeatedly kicked him. Compton city officials called for the deputies involved to be dismissed.[145]
May 31, 2020 Denver, Colorado When asked “what is going to happen at 8”, an officer replied “What’s gonna happen is we’re gonna start beating the fuck out of you.”[146]
May 31, 2020 Des Moines, Iowa A reporter was shot in the thigh by a rubber bullet.[147]
May 31, 2020 Detroit, Michigan An officer fired rubber pellets at a group of photojournalists leaving a protest. The officer was charged but charges were later dropped.[148]
May 31, 2020 El Paso, Texas A woman was hit in the back of the leg by a beanbag round.[149]
May 31, 2020 Eugene, Oregon A reporter from Eugene Weekly was hit with tear gas and pellets.[150]
May 31, 2020 Eugene, Oregon Police fired pepper balls at a man near his home after curfew.[151]
May 31, 2020 Fort Lauderdale, Florida A police officer shoved a woman as she knelt. Video shows one of the officer’s coworkers, a black woman, yelling at him after the incident. The officer who shoved the protester was identified and suspended pending investigation.[152] The officer was later charged with battery but was acquitted.[153]
May 31, 2020 Fort Lauderdale, Florida A woman was shot in the face with a rubber bullet. According to police the detective was aiming at a different person when the woman accidentally walked into the line of fire.[154]
May 31, 2020 Fredericksburg, Virginia Police used tear gas about two minutes after an unlawful assembly was declared. An internal review concluded that police actions were justified, but a later independent review determined that police were too quick to deploy tear gas. A group of protesters filed a lawsuit against the city of Fredericksburg.[155]
May 31, 2020 Hobart, Indiana During a protest near the Southlake Mall, police fired multiple pellets at a man walking to his car, before arresting and siccing a dog on him. Police also used tear gas on protesters.[156]
May 31, 2020 Huntington Beach, California Police used pepper balls on protesters kneeling and lying on a street.[157]
May 31, 2020 Indianapolis, Indiana The Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department was filmed arresting two women, with a male officer holding one of them. The officer’s arm was positioned near her chest. She twisted free and took a few steps, officers fired pepper balls at her feet and struck her with batons. An officer then pressed her to the ground with his hand and a baton resting on her neck. When questioned by another woman, an officer shoved that woman back before she was subdued by police.[158]
May 31, 2020 Indianapolis, Indiana Peaceful protesters, including a church group, were tear gassed after police attempted to arrest a man vandalizing a statue. Indianapolis’s police chief apologized to the group.[159]
May 31, 2020 Jacksonville, Florida An officer was filmed punching a protester near a courthouse.[160]
May 31, 2020 Lafayette, Indiana Police used tear gas on protesters outside the Tippecanoe County Courthouse. According to the Journal & Courier the use of tear gas came without warning, although the sheriff said he gave the order after an explosive was set off near the courthouse.[161]
May 31, 2020 Lakeland, Florida Police used tear gas and pepper spray on protesters. One man was pepper sprayed seconds after he finished a live interview with a local news station.[162]
May 31, 2020 Lansing, Michigan Police threw tear gas canisters at a crowd of protesters, including City Councilman Brandon Betz.[163]
May 31, 2020 Lincoln, Nebraska Multiple people were stuck by non-lethal projectiles. Three people who were hit by projectiles filed lawsuits against the city of Lincoln.[164]
May 31, 2020 Long Beach, California A journalist was shot in the throat by a police rubber bullet.[165]
May 31, 2020 Long Beach, California Police fired a projectile at a woman filming, causing her to lose part of her finger. She later filed a lawsuit against the Long Beach Police Department.[166]
May 31, 2020 Los Angeles, California A US Marine Corp veteran was seriously injured after being shot in head by police with a rubber bullet.[167]
May 31, 2020 Los Angeles, California A police vehicle struck a protester after a crowd surrounded it.[168]
May 31, 2020 Louisville, Kentucky An arrested protester claims police pulled him from a vehicle and hit him with batons.[169]
May 31, 2020 Madison, Wisconsin Police tear gassed and pepper sprayed two reporters from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.[170]
May 31, 2020 Miami, Florida Police grabbed a protester and shoved him to the ground before one put the protester in a chokehold. A report of the incident claims that no force was used.[171]
May 31, 2020 Miami, Florida Police threw a social media producer for WSVN against a truck and arrested him. Charges against the producer were later dropped.[172]
May 31, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Police cruisers were filmed spraying a chemical on crowds of protesters as they drove by.[173]
May 31, 2020 Minneapolis, Minnesota Poice fired a projectile at a man near a highway on-ramp, striking him and causing him to lose vision in one eye. The man later received a $2.4 million settlement.[174]
May 31, 2020 Montreal, Canada Police used tear gas on protesters. According to CTV News Montreal is the only major Canadian city to have deployed tear gas on demonstrators.[175]
May 31, 2020 Murfreesboro, Tennessee Police used tear gas on a group of protesters standing in an intersection, including some children. The mayor of Murfreesboro defended tear gas use, saying it was necessary to remove protesters blocking the intersection.[176]
May 31, 2020 New York City, New York A hospital worker returning home from work was beaten by police.[177]
May 31, 2020 New York City, New York An officer struck a man with a baton, breaking bones in his face.[178]
May 31, 2020 New York City, New York Police repeatedly struck two women with batons.[178]
May 31, 2020 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma A woman was shot in the arm by a rubber bullet. She later filed a lawsuit against the city of Oklahoma City.[179]
May 31, 2020 Phoenix, Arizona A police trainee fired a beanbag round at a man in the Garfield Historic District, breaking part of the man’s forearm. The man later sued the city of Phoenix and its police chief.[180]
May 31, 2020 Richmond, Virginia Two officers pepper sprayed three women in a car at an intersection. The two officers were indicted, but charges against them were later dismissed.[181]
May 31, 2020 Sacramento, California A teen was shot in the face with a rubber bullet.[182]
May 31, 2020 Sacramento, California A legal observer was hit above the eye with a pepper ball.[183]
May 31, 2020 Salem, Oregon An officer fired rubber bullets at a woman, causing vision loss and a chest injury. The woman was later awarded $1 million following a lawsuit.[184]
May 31, 2020 San Bernardino, California Police fired “many rounds” of tear gas and rubber bullets at crowds after reports of fires and violence.[185]
May 31, 2020 San Diego, California Police hit a man with a baton and shot him with bean bags. The city of San Diego said the people seen firing projectiles in the man’s videos were sheriff’s deputies, though the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department stated they did not send officers to the protest. A lawsuit was settled in 2023.[186][187]
May 31, 2020 San Francisco, California Video appears to show a sheriff’s deputy shove a protester from behind on a sidewalk.[188]
May 31, 2020 Santa Monica, California A man was hit in the back with a rubber bullet. Police also zip tied and arrested protesters, including actor Cole Sprouse.[189]
May 31, 2020 Santa Rosa, California An officer fired a plastic sting-ball grenade at a protester from less than 15 feet away. The protester suffered a broken jaw and four of his front teeth were knocked out. The officer was later suspended for 20 hours.[190][191]
May 31, 2020 Santa Rosa, California An officer fired a rubber bullet at a man who suffered a ruptured testicle and required emergency surgery. According to findings by the Santa Rosa Police Department the rubber bullet used was not authorized for crowd control. The officer was later suspended for 20 hours.[191]
May 31, 2020 Santa Rosa, California An officer fired a rubber bullet at a man, striking him in the forehead. In September 2021 the city of Santa Rosa agreed to pay the man $105,000 following a lawsuit.[192]
May 31, 2020 Spokane, Washington Police fired tear gas at a group of kneeling protesters. Police were responding to reports of looting at a nearby Nike store.[193]
May 31, 2020 Spokane, Washington Police beat a man lying on the ground with his arms raised with a baton. It is not clear what happened before the beating.[193]
May 31, 2020 Tampa, Florida Police fired a rubber bullet at a man helping others to safety, striking him in the back of the head. In 2021 the man filed a lawsuit against the city of Tampa, claiming he suffered from memory loss and migraines since the incident.[194]
May 31, 2020 Tulsa, Oklahoma Police fired pepper balls at a KTUL reporter, damaging his camera.[195]
May 31, 2020 Washington, D.C. President Trump went to the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church, whose basement had been damaged by fire, and posed for pictures in front of it holding up a Bible. To clear the route so that Trump could walk there, police and national guardsmen used tear gas, rubber bullets, and flash grenades to clear a crowd of peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square, resulting in significant news coverage and denunciation by the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington.[196][197][198]
May 31, 2020 Washington, D.C. Federal police fired pepper balls at protesters in Lafayette Square. One man was hit in the eye.[199]
May 31, 2020 Waterbury, Connecticut Police tackled protesters while arresting them. The Waterbury Police Department stated the 28 people arrested were from an “antagonistic” group separate from peaceful protesters.[200]
May 31, 2020 West Palm Beach, Florida Police fired smoke canisters and rubber bullets at protesters. According to The Palm Beach Post police began firing rubber bullets and smoke canisters right after police announced a curfew.[201]
May 31, 2020 Wilmington, North Carolina Police fired tear gas at protesters a street length away.[202]
June 1, 2020 Asbury Park, New Jersey Police shoved a woman to the ground and arrested a reporter. The reporter was later released and his charges dropped.[203]
June 1, 2020 Asheville, North Carolina Police targeted street medics in the crowd during protests at Pack Place, using rubber bullets and tear gas. At least one street medic and several protesters were injured by pepper balls and rubber bullets.[204]
June 1, 2020 Athens, Georgia Police tear gassed a group of protesters after curfew.[205]
June 1, 2020 Bentonville, Arkansas Police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters.[206]
June 1, 2020 Buffalo, New York Police tackled a man from behind as he was being interviewed by a news station.[207]
June 1, 2020 Chicago, Illinois An officer was filmed punching a man after shoving him to the ground.[208]
June 1, 2020 Cincinnati, Ohio A reporter from The Cincinnati Enquirer was forced to the ground and handcuffed. The reporter was released shortly after.[209]
June 1, 2020 Colorado Springs, Colorado Police were filmed firing less-lethal rounds at a man and punching him. Colorado Springs Police chief Vince Niski announced an investigation would be conducted.[210]
June 1, 2020 Columbus, Ohio Journalists were pepper sprayed by police.[211]
June 1, 2020 Conway, Arkansas Police used tear gas on protesters.[212]
June 1, 2020 Des Moines, Iowa A journalist was sprayed by police. Police announced they would conduct an “internal review”.[147]
June 1, 2020 Des Moines, Iowa Police gassed and arrested a reporter for Iowa’s KCCI.[213]
June 1, 2020 Des Moines, Iowa Police pushed, pepper sprayed, and beat protesters. A regional director from the American Civil Liberties Union accused police of kettling protesters and using excessive force against a child, journalists, and a legal observer.[214]
June 1, 2020 Joliet, Illinois Mayor Bob O’Dekirk personally scuffled with a protester, aided by police.[215]
June 1, 2020 Kalamazoo, Michigan Police fired tear gas at a group of people lying on the ground. Police claim the group had been looting and destroying property, while protesters disputed this.[216]
June 1, 2020 Little Rock, Arkansas State Police fired a bean bag projectile at a man leaving a protest outside the Arkansas State Capitol. In June 2022 the man filed a lawsuit against the State Police.[217]
June 1, 2020 Los Angeles, California Video shows deputies shooting pepper balls at a group of fleeing skateboarders in Hollywood.[218]
June 1, 2020 Los Angeles, California Police handcuffed and arrested store owners and bystanders who were protecting a looted store.[219]
June 1, 2020 Louisville, Kentucky An officer fired pepper balls at a person standing on private property. The Department of Justice later indicted the officer for excessive force.[220]
June 1, 2020 Louisville, Kentucky Local chef David McAtee was fatally shot by the Kentucky National Guard.[221][222]
June 1, 2020 Oakland, California Police used tear gas on protesters. About a year later in 2021 police chief LaRonne Armstrong apologized for the use of tear gas and announced that more than 33 disciplinary actions had been issued to officers who deployed it.[223]
June 1, 2020 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Protesters were filmed kneeling with hands up as police pulled their mask and goggles off and sprayed them.[224] A Philadelphia Police officer was later charged with simple assault and reckless endangerment.[225]
June 1, 2020 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania A Temple University student was released from custody on June 3, after his arrest on June 1, on charges of assaulting an officer. Video showed an officer striking him in the head with a baton and another placing his knee on the back of his neck/head to pin the student’s face to the street.[226] The officer who used a baton, Police Staff Inspector Joseph Bologna, was suspended and charged with aggravated assault.[227] Other incidents caught on video involving Bologna regarding the 2020 protests saw him tackling a female protester who had touched his bicycle, lunging at a journalist, and hitting a security guard.[228] Bologna was later fired, and multiple lawsuits were filed against him.[229]
June 1, 2020 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Protesters on the I-676 were hit with tear gas from both sides of the highway. In 2023 the city of Philadelphia announced a $9.25 million settlement for protesters affected by tear gas, rubber bullets, and zip ties.[230]
June 1, 2020 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania An officer fired at a protester 20 feet from a police line.[231]
June 1, 2020 Portland, Oregon A man was shot in the leg with a foam munition at close range.[232]
June 1, 2020 Raleigh, North Carolina Police fired projectiles at a bar owner and staff members.[233]
Alright, well, I’m gonna ignore the passive aggression, mostly because it doesn’t contribute to the conversation and is only damaging to an attempt at civility.
My point, was that police aren’t the only danger, and that plenty of others KILL innocent protestors. I didn’t even include harming other protestors. Like I said in my other comments to you and to others, but you’ve clearly misunderstood that point based on the other comments you’ve made to me, so I’ll reiterate here.
Super clearly:
“Police are undoubetdly part of, if not the majority of the problem. However, we face plenty of other threats from domestic and foreign terrorists in the state. I acknowledge that terrorism in the US has often been used as a scape goat (namely to invade the wrong fucking country - Afghanistan). However, I am identifying the issue of: How do we prevent these attacks and respond w/o the need for police. Which IS NOT implying that I think the police are the answer, but a call to constructive action to solve the problem w/o the need to OVER rely on the police as some kind of protector force. Which we BOTH agree, they are not.”
Get it?
I don’t know how many more times I can say that I believe the ACAB movement before it finally sets in for you. The police are not the only fucking problem we face. And to say otherwise is dangerous and misleading.
The point is the risk of heavy police presence at a protest is not worth the “protection” they do or don’t offer.
Ban protests if you really want to as a nation but stop this “you totally can protest, it is your right! Oh watch out for the tear gas” crap.
I don’t know how many more times I can say that I believe the ACAB movement before it finally sets in for you. The police are not the only fucking problem we face. And to say otherwise is dangerous and misleading.
OK, I will spell it out.
THE HEAVY POLICE PRESENCE AT PROTESTS ARE THE PROBLEM.
And if you just read the next several walls of text you can see that it is not even close.
I can’t say I’m a fan unfortunately. I didn’t like the majority of his discourse on racial profiling, his fascination with Islam (despite more abrahamic religions being pretty violent and hateful, even if they try to correct w/ new testaments), and especially on his discourse regarding race and intelligence which is pretty classic nazi/skin head shit tbh
So I have a question I sort of posted in there too but figure I’ll bring the conversation over here (in a more respectful way)
These are called spotters/marksman and they have them at football games, the Olympics, presumably political events, etc. to handle the threat of suicide bombers and other mass-population terrorist threats
How should we handle these threats without police intervention/snipers to quickly take out a bomber?
Looking for civil discourse if at all possible, but I also understand this is a high stakes discussion and directly affects some more than others
Edit: Asks a legitimate question, without ulterior motives, literally just trying to steer the conversation to a productive, constructive discussion: is bombarded with bad faith arguments, downvotes, accused of being down right disingenuous, and minimal attempts (1 as of this edit) to actually address the conversation. Psychotic experience this was.
“These threats” what threat?? People protesting? These snipers have never once protected protestors from the violent freaks that show up to run people over or shoot people.
Poignant point
The most likely reasoning is also the saddest.
The tensions about israel/palestine are real. Theres a non zero chance that someone who is very pro-israel and very unhinged might decide the pro-palestinians need shooting. You know how I know this? Because this is an American school, people get shot because someone feels that they need to shoot some people, they dont need a wildly divisive issue to spur them on. One anonymous email talking about how the “terrorist supporters are going to get whats coming to them” and the school/police have to do something. If they do nothing and it does happen everyone will be screaming that “They were warned and did nothing! They wanted this to happen!”
But you see that’s not what they’re doing, right? Tearing down protest encampments and arresting everyone isn’t protecting them.
They can want the protests to go away (or make them) AND not want to deal with the bad press of failing to at least pretend to protect them on campus. Even if the protest is unauthorised by administration they still dont want " Nothing was done to prevent OSU mass shooting by police or administration" to be a headline.
Both things can be true.
Both things can be true, but that doesn’t really make it better? Both are completely self serving reasons that trample on the constitutional rights of the students.
From my point of view/questioning, it’s the threat of suicide bombers and other terrorist efforts (acid, dirty bombs, driving through a crowd of people) when it comes to protesting middle eastern matters in the states. Hell we have American terrorists doing terrorism here too, how do we better prevent that or are we stuck only responding?
This is a complete distraction. The only people spilling protestors’ blood on American soil right now are cops. And your response to it is to try to justify why they need intimidation snipers on top of that?? Absolutely not.
You did not address what they said and instead made a slew of assumptions about their intent. They actually had a question
That was answered, like several times. I don’t care about the intent (from ether party), but what does grind my gears is the wilfully ignoring any answer that does not fit the weird fear mongering position that this guy is here to protect anyone:
Removed by mod
Who?
You keep posting this picture, can you share where you got it?
And your response to a credible threat that is solved with the exact same means at other public gatherings, is to not use them, because you feel safe without them? If you apply this way of thinking to other security measures, why would you have a lock at the door? People won’t steal from you (until they actually do because you didn’t have a lock in your door)
This isn’t even true (we literally just had several parades/protests where a driver DROVE through the fucking crowd), you completely dodge my question, and then in bad faith tried to paint me like I’m some sort of crazy person who thinks intimidation is somehow a good idea.
I’m done with this conversation. I don’t have to tolerate bad faith arguments when I’ve repeatedly shown I want to have civil discourse. Next time, don’t respond if you can’t act like an adult and treat someone who’s trying to improve themselves and act like an adult.
OK, dude wringing his hands about what if someone brings in a dirty bomb while cops bash in heads. 🙄 The grandstanding like I didn’t bring up violent freaks running over and shooting protestors first is a cute touch, too.
If you want to be treated as a serious person to have a serious conversation with then be fucking serious.
I’ve repeatedly said that cops using snipers/spotters is not a good solution, and that cops are part of the problem, but okay believe whatever lies you wanna tell yourself I suppose. Thats your prerogative
Actual prevention of terrorism comes by building a just society. People who have basic needs, healthcare, education, and justice do not become terrorists.
And how do you expect a sharpshooter team to stop a suicide bomber, acid attack, or dirty bomb? Even stopping a crowd-driving-maniac would require significant luck. This isn’t an action movie.
I never made this claim… I was asking the question literally, which you answered and lead with, before going back to say I was implying something else. I’m confused how we ended up here, but I think we both agree that snipers are a threatening, and apparently not that effective means to prevent these things from happening. And even in reacting, snipers are overkill.
dirty bombs are movie plot threat, bombers, suicide or not are not an issue in usa because alternatives are more easily available. your take sounds weird and disingenuous
We’ve had several bombings, including suicide bombers in the us. Not everything is pushed into the news cycle by the media state because “it encourages copy cats” or whatever other bullshit they’ll come up with to only report what they want to push.
San Bernardino Attack (2015): 14 people were killed and 22 were seriously injured (mass shooting and attempted bombing)
Boston Marathon Bombing (2013): 3 people killed and injuring several hundred, including 16 who lost limbs. (bombing)
Times Square Car Bomb Attempt (2010): Attempted car bombing, non injured
Nashville Bombing (2020) - Suicide RV Bombing
Your take is ignorant.
Your take is just fear mongering and pushing the narrative that the police in the US are being militarized to protect people. You are talking about a 14 year period where 18 people died from 2 successful attacks, and hundreds injured. A stat line that is eclipsed by the number of people killed and injured by police every year. In case you are wondering that would be >600 killed and 250,000 injured per year.
https://policeepi.uic.edu/u-s-data-on-police-shootings-and-violence/
The idea that this cure is better then the illness is just not born out in data.
It’s very obvious you aren’t even reading my comments anymore, I think we can be done now. I’m not going to participate in bad faith discussions. Obvious troll at this point. See ya.
Or I am taking my time responding as I just woke up.
But don’t let me stop your victory lap. Clearly you are not at all projecting.
The fact you Americans think this is normal for a protest says more then anything I can comment.
A good test is to think of a private entitiy doing this and if that passes the smell test. I don’t think deploying snipers at events has ever saved anyone (correct me if I am missing an incident) and in this case if they are there to protect the students why does the school not hire their own sharpshooters?
You bring up a good point. The prevention part - snipers are seemingly ineffective. The reaction/response portion however, does point to guns being used to prevent further damage. 2016 dallas shooting - police used a bomb to take out the shooter after the fact. LA airport shooting in 2013 - taken down with regular guns.
Overall, I think you make a good point, they’re ineffective at prevention, and even response can be handled w/o the need of long range or automatic weapons. There’s always the argument that “well there aren’t any attacks because we have these” that I can see people making but that feels fallacious somehow, just not sure how exactly.
I am still left to wonder, how do you actually prevent the bombing and other attacks from happening. What is effective?
I think you might be mistaken as to the point of the police being on site. Its not really the job of police to protect (and extra so for protesters). The risk of a terror attack on any large group of people is a weak excuse for this sort of response from police.
Something about those who give up liberty for safety deserve nether…
I sorta agree, but wanted to ask for some clarification - what liberties do you see being given up here? They didn’t really take anything away, they were just there. It’s definitely intimidating, and nobody trusts the police (for good reason, namely lack of appropriate oversight, action, and training) but I can’t see how anything was taken away or given up here for the illusion of saftey that the snipers would hypothetically be providing, know what I mean?
You have normalized a police state where as a people you now think it is normal to have things like sniper teams set up at all major events with a lot of people. This has been done as you have stated; “to handle the threat of suicide bombers and other mass-population terrorist threats” even though sniper teams have almost no ability to stop or even just not make the situation considerably worse.
The thing about trading liberties for extra safety is not only about the liberties lost but that it is a fools journey since the things done for safety are more likely to be ether useless, or just bad (think TSA vs militarizing the police).
You are not stopping a mass casualty event at the time and place of the event itself but well before it. This show of force is just control, theatre, a waste of taxpayer money and in the worst case the cause (ironically enough) of a mass casualty event.
Well said. Thank you.
Dude I’m not gonna repeat myself. Go through my comments. I’ve said time in and time out that I don’t agree with this practice. Why is this so hard for people to grasp lol
Edit: And you didn’t even answer my question: what liberties are lost by having these snipers there
I did answer you question and have been the only person willing to engage with you politely. So I will break it down at a lower level, all caps:
YOU DO NOT STOP MASS SHOOTINGS BY SENDING ARMED GOONS.
YOU HAVE TO STOP THESE THINGS BEFORE THE EVENT NOT DURING.
YOU HAVE ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS POINTING LOADED FIREARMS AT PEOPLE WHO ARE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. THIS HAS REMOVED THE LIBERTY OF THE STUDENTS BY CHILLING THE ABILITY TO PROTEST (A RIGHT) AND ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED ASSOCIATION WITH PEOPLE WHO SHARE THE SAME POLITICAL VIEWS (THIS IS ALSO COVERED IN YOUR CONSTITUTION).
The very idea you could not pick up on the liberties at direct risk here has me thinking you are ether so oppressed that you don’t even know what basic human freedom is, or more likely you are not arguing in good faith and know full well what is going on.
No one (other then I guess your police and governor) wants this stupid, useless, dangerous, Patriot act level show of force.
Edit: And I for one will repeat myself, over and over in different ways since you have stated no one has addressed your question when after reading the replies, they have, and done so in many nuanced and different ways. It just happens no one has given you the answer you are fishing for.
I’ve been saying this repeatedly (I literally just said it to you in the prior comment but you’re ignoring it ig? Who’s fishing for responses?) I don’t believe in the practice of using intimidation as a deterrent. Especially when it comes to weapons that can kill someone (and probably multiple people at once) instantaneously.
How do we prevent this from happening (this is the question I’m asking repeatedly and the question that only one person responded to directly, and who’s solution was to “create a just society” which I don’t need to tell you is incredibly vague and utopian.) Again. My question is how do we prevent this from happening
This is a threatening action, agreed. This does not remove our liberty to peacefully protest, but it creates an unjustly hostile/threatening environment. That I agree with (see point 1)
Stop assuming I’m being an assholr on purpose when I’ve very obviously for ACAB, understand the police state problem, and am trying to have civil conversation despite being accused of being some Tucker Carlson crayon muncher. That’s bad faith. Assuming the worst of me, is bad faith.
My frustrations are valid. Your attempts to gaslight me into some kind of troll, when all I’m trying to do (as a “good liberal”) is to get to the fucking bottom of things and have a civil conversation about police reform, is dangerous.
The tolerant don’t need to tolerate trolls, assholes, and other forms of intolerance. That’s why I was fine with not repeating myself. Not for lack of effort or care, but because this is lemmy.
Where all the users are anonymous.
And any of one these responses could be from one or multiple troll conservative groups.
If you’d like to continue the conversation in a constructive and respectful way? I’m all for it.
When the bomber intends to die in glory, there is no deterrent possible. Death isn’t any deterrent. It can only be stopped before they get to the scene.
Why won’t anyone answer my question, I know this.
What can be done to prevent
OK…
Reeducation or incarceratin of zealots. Large investment in mental health. Prosecution of group’s and individuals that call for violence or have violent philosophies. Reduce access to weapons and materials. High bounties for reporting suspicious activity or behavior. Promotion / enforcement of a homogeneous society.
None WILL be done. Many are undesirable. But they can be used to prevent. Does that help you?
Yes absolutely. These are most definitely actionable and are also excellent conversational pieces that can be discussed further, which was all I wanted instead of outrage commenting basically.
I think healthcare in general (including mental health) services would be hugely impactful to the general population.
I also think our educational system is being eroded and a lot of kids are pushed away from continuing education (in any form, not just traditional university which fails a lot of people) in favor of blue collar work
Now I’m not saying blue collar work is bad, but I do think continuing education is important, especially as our life expectancies are increasing. It’s important people stay educated and continue to practice things like the scientific process so that we don’t lose that information and become disinformation spreaders.
Without solid education, we can’t possible expect a “bright” future imo.
What did you mean about the homogenous society? In what ways? Looking forward to any examples/explanation you could give!
In a homogeneous society, everyone has the same background. No differences of traditions, religions, art, music, etc. They all look roughly similar. They have no fuel to make another member into the “other”. As I understand, Iceland has something approaching this. I expect the Sentinalese do, to. The ways to get to this from a large and diverse society are, of course, appalling.
Yeeeeeahhh, not sure if I agree with this one. To me it feels sort of lazy and skirts around the true nature of accepting people for who they are and learning to be more tolerant of people not exactly like us
Sorta feels lazy to say, well let’s get rid of what makes us different/unique.
Nature doesn’t really believe in the homogeneous, I don’t see why we should strive to make it so
I’m sorry people are being so reactionary and taking your questions as being pro sniper or whatever way they’re taking it. Rational discourse is generally better on Lemmy than other places but is still on the Internet, so people don’t actually give anyone credit for trying to be calm and rational about events like these.
And like, to an extent, I understand the outrage. I do.
But if people can’t act like adults, know they need to simmer down a bit before having these conversations, lemmy is in no way better than Reddit. It’s just a Reddit that’s wider and under the control of more people.
This interaction (while in the original thread my words were flung without frontal lobe usage, and that’s entirely my fault) I had hoped to reset after I had apologized but I guess a lot of people were still upset.
Maybe it was my fault. Idk. All I can do is continue to move forward and do better. Simple as that. Thank you for the empathy, I appreciate it.
The cops are the threat to the protestors.
Are they the only threat? If not, what do we do about the threat, as I asked, and have continued to ask
Oh come now, the point being made is the police ARE THE THREAT. There is no other threat at the level of the armed government goons on site pointing loaded firearms at students. You replied to the answer of your question with “But what about the OTHER threat?” And if you could read just a tiny bit between the lines by the fact that nether you or the person you have replied to have listed another threat (other then general terrorism), maybe you could figure out that there is no threat these police are there to thwart.
How are you gonna put parenthesis around the point that was literally counterpoint to the comment.
They were saying the police were the biggest threat, yet we have repeated terrorist events from regular Americans (not cops as well?)
People died from those incidents. I didn’t even include just injuries or anything like that. Dead. Not pepper spray, not rubber bullets.
Run over.
And eight year old was fucking shot and killed.
To say that police or the only threat to LIFE at these events is just outright disingenuous. period.
There exists real threats that we need to address if we’re ever to pull back our gross reliance on police being some kind of savior figure or whatever bullshit other people believe they are.
All the US needs to do is embrace Peelian principles, but instead it’s a corrupt, power groping free for all.
We both know even if taking a more community driven approach like what Peel did in London would take a herculean effort and the public at this point would not likely buy in. Maybe in 50 years.
The argument is not that there are not non police risks, its that they pale in comparison (at a degree that the non police risk is so low to almost be a rounding error) to police risks. Also the police have shown over and over in the US they are not willing to protect the public.
See that is something we can agree on.
A couple of thoughts.
Yes, these are the same people you see at football games (although they usually are better hidden).
I wonder if they were loaded with live ammo or rubber bullets, either way - yikes.
in this thread we respect laws of physics. you aint sniping anything with a rubber bullet
Good point. Still wonder if live ammo was loaded
Do these snipers ever actually intervene ?
Also, the solution is simple : outlaw guns.
The police forces would never give up their guns, though.
I think people do not realize that for large gatherings where violence could break out this is pretty standard.
Most Sports stadiums have them.
I do not think it is wrong to be cautious, or at least have some pieces on the table in case something breaks out.
Which I am sorry to say, could very well happen.
1:5 Americans believe that an act of force is justified. RIght wing or left wing, that could be a terrifying concept if someone motivated by zealous anger to attack a protest they don’t fully understand.
They made an earnest effort to get rid of guns in Northern Ireland. How’d that go down?
I’m actually not aware of this, what did happen?
Sensible gun control policies did fuck all to end The Troubles
I think there might’ve been a miscommunication - I was referring to the threat being suicide bombers and dirty bombs. How do you stop someone from walking into a crowd, pushing a button, and hurting many innocent people trying to peacefully protest?
The cops are literally the ones walking into the crowds hurting the protestors. So you get rid of the cops.
I already asked this but I’m gonna repeat it here for clarity, are cops the only people hurting innocent people at protests?
Charlottesville, Virginia (2017): White supremacist drives car into counter protestors
Minneapolis, Minnesota (2020): Tanker truck drives through a crowd of George Floyd protestors.
Seattle, Washington (2020): Police brutality protest, driver drives through a crowd yet again.
New York City, New York (2017): IED sucide bomber inspired by ISIS in the subway.
Portland, Oregon (2020): Several incidents regarding vehicle usage and other violence against George Floyd protestors
Seems not. People are violent and there are threats to peaceful protesters. I am not saying that police snipers are the solution to this threat, and I am not saying cops are innocent, but to try and pretend that the *only *problem is cops, is disingenuous to the innocent people who have died due to hateful people and I’m not going to let you pretend otherwise, knowingly or otherwise.
Say their names.
Heather Heyer
David McAtee
Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr
Summer Taylor
Secoriea Turner (8 fucking years old.)
Garrett Foster
Anthony Huber
Joseph Rosenbaum
What a cute list, here is one for the police during only a 6 month period over one large event to show the stark difference between the dangers of strangers and the dangers of police at protests (who I might add where present at all your examples, so what was the point?)
(in case you want to double check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_violence_incidents_during_George_Floyd_protests) Sorry this might take a bit:
In late 2022, Justin Stetson, one of the officers who beat Stallings was charged with third-degree assault.[110] On May 8, 2023, prosecutors offered Stetson a plea deal allowing him to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and avoid jail time, which Stallings objected to.[111] Nonetheless, a judge accepted the plea agreement. Stenson pleaded guilty to third-degree assault and one count of misconduct as a public officer, with the condition he never work as a police officer in Minnesota again.[112] Stenson had already taken a disability retirement in August 2022 and the plea did not affect his state pension.[111]
Alright, well, I’m gonna ignore the passive aggression, mostly because it doesn’t contribute to the conversation and is only damaging to an attempt at civility.
My point, was that police aren’t the only danger, and that plenty of others KILL innocent protestors. I didn’t even include harming other protestors. Like I said in my other comments to you and to others, but you’ve clearly misunderstood that point based on the other comments you’ve made to me, so I’ll reiterate here.
Super clearly:
“Police are undoubetdly part of, if not the majority of the problem. However, we face plenty of other threats from domestic and foreign terrorists in the state. I acknowledge that terrorism in the US has often been used as a scape goat (namely to invade the wrong fucking country - Afghanistan). However, I am identifying the issue of: How do we prevent these attacks and respond w/o the need for police. Which IS NOT implying that I think the police are the answer, but a call to constructive action to solve the problem w/o the need to OVER rely on the police as some kind of protector force. Which we BOTH agree, they are not.”
Get it?
I don’t know how many more times I can say that I believe the ACAB movement before it finally sets in for you. The police are not the only fucking problem we face. And to say otherwise is dangerous and misleading.
The point is the risk of heavy police presence at a protest is not worth the “protection” they do or don’t offer.
Ban protests if you really want to as a nation but stop this “you totally can protest, it is your right! Oh watch out for the tear gas” crap.
OK, I will spell it out.
THE HEAVY POLICE PRESENCE AT PROTESTS ARE THE PROBLEM.
And if you just read the next several walls of text you can see that it is not even close.
Folks are being deliberately dense and not answering your question. I replied above, but I’ll add that Sam Harris does tend to address this at length.
I can’t say I’m a fan unfortunately. I didn’t like the majority of his discourse on racial profiling, his fascination with Islam (despite more abrahamic religions being pretty violent and hateful, even if they try to correct w/ new testaments), and especially on his discourse regarding race and intelligence which is pretty classic nazi/skin head shit tbh
I mostly agree.
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