I am a Palestinian American in Pennsylvania, a contested state. I plan to write in “uncommitted” in the Democratic primary on 23 April and in November, I will vote for a third-party candidate.
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For many, myself included, a vote for Biden is simply impermissible – the extent of the moral calamity is so great as to render a vote for Biden a vote for complicity.
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As the president of the Center City mosque in Philadelphia, Mohammed Shariff, said to me: “My vote is the purest form of expression and speech.” President Biden ignores our voices at his own peril, and ours.
Anything Biden can do, Trump can do worse.
As a Canadian I don’t have to deal with it directly, but I don’t think I could cast a vote for Biden. Downvotes on these posts are strange to me. From outside the US it’s obvious that while Israel bears primary responsibility for the ongoing ethnic cleansing, it likely wouldn’t have developed so completely without the material, economic, and political support of the Biden administration. Simply telling a group that, sure this guy is cool with the elimination of your people and is willing to help, but the other guy is a threat to our system… well it’s pretty rich to expect that group to suck it up.
Simply telling a group that, sure this guy is cool with the elimination of your people and is willing to help, but the other guy is a threat to our system… well it’s pretty rich to expect that group to suck it up.
The other guy would probably be offering to put our troops on the ground to help Israel genocide faster. It’s not just that he’s a threat to our system, and he is, but that he’s a horrible, horrible, terrible, un-redeemable, festering piece of excrement who you can be assured is going to do the absolute worst possible thing in every situation he finds himself in, and revel in it.
The downvotes are because “both sides are the same” is an extremely common talking point by right wing trolls/astroturfers.
Conservatives recognized a long time ago that republicans will vote. They aren’t worried about disenfranchising conservative voters. Because conservatives will be willing to jump through hoops to keep voting. Voter ID laws, for instance, largely don’t affect conservative votes. If there’s one thing conservatives are really really good at, it’s presenting a unified front for their voters.
So when barriers to voting are put in place, they’re almost universally intended to disenfranchise liberal voters. This is true for both hard barriers - Codified legislation like voter ID laws - and also for soft barriers like a lack of time or motivation to vote. There is often a lot of liberal pushback against hard barriers, (because liberal lawmakers and activists recognize that it will unfairly disenfranchise liberal voters) so lots of time and effort has shifted towards making those soft barriers larger. This includes everything from “your vote doesn’t matter, so why bother” messaging, to “both sides are the same, so why bother” messaging.
Basically, the conservatives are going to vote conservative regardless. But the liberals might not vote liberal, or might not vote at all. So the “both sides” messaging has been leveraged by conservatives to dissuade liberal voters. The downvotes are a sort of over correction from liberals who have recognized this trend. Because sure, it could be someone who is genuinely disgusted by Biden’s actions and doesn’t feel right voting for him. But it could also very easily be a right wing troll. So many liberals have simply begun downvoting any kind of “both sides” messaging, because the default assumption is that the argument isn’t being made in good faith.
I definitely understand the dynamics of that, and how policy and morality make center left voters more fractious than the right, who vote on dogma. What I was trying to say, is that were I an American, I would very much struggle to give my vote to someone who is pretty clearly a part of the process of atrocity and genocide. It’s a cold decision to have to make. Do I choose an accessory to one of humanities worst crimes, or another who would also commit that crime, as well as presenting further risks of accelerating the path of America toward becoming Iran, but with a cross instead of a crescent.
I’m glad I’m not American, but I think I live way too close right now.
Trump would gladly support turning Gaza into a parking lot, and quite likely would have US troops engaged in a war with Iran right now. So, the actual choice is Biden, who’s attempting but largely failing to restrain Israeli military actions, and Trump, who would actively support them and undoubtedly support subsequent Jewish settlement of Gaza once the Palestinian “problem” has been solved.
It’s an unfortunate choice, sure, but it’s not a hard one.
“I’m going to shoot myself in the foot on principle.“
Not what was said or meant, but undeniably the ultimate result of this approach will be leadership that actively and happily opposes ANY progress for Palestine. Period.
Biden has done poorly on an issue that the alternative would utterly disregard.
I know, the “lesser evil” argument is weak - but Biden is pushing back on Netanyahu where others would encourage and enable him.
It’s your vote - think pragmatically.
Claiming he’s pushing back while he’s pushing for more funding and weapons sales is a weak argument. What he says never aligns with what he does
Fair enough, but consider what he’s saying is all but unprecedented. He’s tying strings to our policy and directly pushing aid to Gaza too. Yes, the air drops have not been anywhere near enough - but that they happen at all is telling.
Again, the point is that the alternative would be exponentially worse. Yes, worse even than the nightmare it already is.
It doesn’t get much worse then genocide. If Biden did the exact same things he’s done with Palestine but as a Republican fucking liberals would be calling for impeachment, investigations, 25th amendment, etc. anything to get him out of office.
But democrats will accept right wing fascist authoritarian policy if it has a D next to their name
No, nothing Biden is doing is praiseworthy. Ronald Reagan, yes that Ronald Reagan, was far more assertive:
In addition to not vetoing UN resolutions, Reagan took several actions that many in Israel and the United States perceived as anti-Israel. For example, on June 7, 1981, less than six months after Reagan took office, Israel launched a surprise bombing raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, and, in so doing, violated the airspace of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel.
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In addition to allowing the UN resolutions to pass and suspending the F-16 delivery, Reagan also restricted aid and military assistance to Israel to help force its withdrawal of troops from Beirut and central Lebanon.
All Biden does is flap his lips while giving weapons to Israel. The air drops are just theater that do nothing to prevent the famine.
Imagine being to the right of people like Reagan and Thatcher and calling themselves progressive
What I want to know is why nobody is pushing against Hamas too. They’re not the good guys, there are none in power over there. They need to get rid of both leaders and let the young people deal with this.
But this sudden turn from “Hamas needs to stop firing rockets at malls and schools” suddenly became “omg the poor Palestinian government, we must save it!”
I’ve not seen support for Hamas…? Who are you referring to?
The people shooting rockets and raping people on October 7, educate yourself
No dumb ass, I quite clearly noted I’ve not seen anyone advocating for them as suggested, outside of extremists. Even he usual suspects seem disinclined to support them after the attacks - even Iran held back until conditions in Gaza went so badly and even then until attacked and they’re usually itching for an excuse.
Funny how this Gaza thing has been going on for literally decades. But you never gave a shit until the news and social media told you to. You’re just a fake activist, and you’ll move on to the next outrage in no time, just like you guys moved on from Ukraine already. And you’re not even an activist cause I doubt you get off your ass and do anything for Palestine besides removed online.
I still remember after 9/11 you guys wanted every Arab and Muslim dead, and wanted Palestine wiped out, and suddenly you guys change your mind and we’re supposed to believe your moral grandstanding is genuine lol
You have no idea about….everything apparently. But ooh you’re mad and judge mental. That’ll surely foster a dialogue and progress.
Job well done, you solved it.
There it is. Both sides-ing a genocide. I suspect most of you Blue Maga folks don’t actually care about the Palestinians, which is why it’s so easy for you to make the “lesser evil” argument.
I guess enjoy Trump glassing the place then
Why is it that everyone who opposes you is Maga? Idiot. I’m more left wing than you’re ever willing to go. I’ve been protesting before you were born.
Sometimes (most of the time) both sides are bad. I’ve lived it, I’ve grown up in war instead of comfort like you. I grew up with bombs falling, not playing Nintendo all day like you. Netanyahu is bad, so is Hamas, get rid of them both. Just because you hate Israel (certain Israelis, not the Arab ones) doesn’t make Hamas the good guys they aren’t. Hamas leaders are wealthy and don’t like in Palestine by the way. Educate yourself
Why isn’t it Biden’s job to think pragmatically?
Here’s some pragmatism for you.
- Leaving Israel to hang out to dry will open up America to accusations that it gives in too easily to ‘antisemitic’ rhetoric and doesn’t really care for Jews. Don’t think that can happen? It already has.
- Putin and Netanyahu, despite not being as close today, have historically been close, and Israel is a pretty friendly nation to Russia, with the third most common language spoken in Israel being Russian, and the third ranked non-Soviet state in terms of Russian speakers being Israel.
- Jews represent roughly 5.8 million Americans, compared to roughly 3.5 million. And Jews, as a whole, lean heavily towards Democrats, with roughly half of those polled in 2018 identifying with Team Blue. And while almost 60%, we’re still talking 2.9 million Jews versus 2.1 million Muslims. Doing what you say you want him to do will lose him many of those 2.9 million votes, and if he listens to the most vocal of the people saying they won’t vote for him, he has to wonder how much of the 2.1 million other votes he’ll get back.
- And of course, the rest of the Middle East is just WAITING for us to stop protecting Israel. They’ve wanted Israel gone since 1949, and we are the only reason that hasn’t happened. I’m sure that’s entered Biden’s pragmatic evaluation, too!
How’s that for pragmatism for ya?
1: Jews aren’t Israel, and they’re perfefctly capable of making that distiction. The US doesn’t need to equate them.
2: Great, let’s get all the murderous shitheads in one bloc and fuck them all off together. Not seeing the downside here.
3: It’s not just Muslims that he needs to win back, it’s everyone on the left with any kind of principles. Including a goodly number of Jews.
4: 76 years of brutal oppression, but now Uncle Vernon isn’t around to shield them from consequences? Behold my garden of fucks, may’st see that it lieth barren.
My friend, you just argued that fueling genocide is the pragmatic choice.
Trump said he wanted Israel to hurry up and get it done. Rather have that man in office? Jesus fuck me you kids are dumb as fucking rocks. Dehydrated, rock hard stupid.
It is. He is standing by our ally while calling out their actions. I don’t agree with it either but recognize that turning our back on Israel would destabilize the mess in the region even more.
Netanyahu is the problem and it’s obvious that Biden wants him gone but for now it’s a shitty situation Iran just escalated.
What would have Biden do? Put troops in Gaza? I wish we’d cut off military aid personally but people far more qualified than me make those calls. It’s a shitshow for sure but opting for worse is not the solution.
Iran escalated, by returning fire?
I meant by arming the Houthis and clearly itching to get involved. The attack on their embassy was a dumb move in response which….further escalated things and frankly I think backfired massively as it eliminated the argument that Israel was solely defensive. Phrased that poorly.
Anyone who thinks Israel is our ally is fooling themself. Israel wants to pull us into another war. Anyone who thinks we can be allies with a country carrying out genocide, much less provide them with weapons, is morally bankrupt. You don’t need qualifications to know fueling genocide is unconditionally wrong, you just need a soul.
Nope. Biden has already stated that his support for Israel is unconditional, and he’s got their back no matter what they do.
A person is no better than the worst thing they will tolerate, and there’s nothing he won’t tolerate. Israel could build literal fucking gas chambers, and not only will he foot the bill, he’ll fight anyone who tries to stop them.
The republicans run on being hateful morons, that’s their whole platform and their voters know what they’re getting.
The dems run on being decent responsible human beings, but you don’t get to make that claim if you’re too busy gagging on nazi dick. If people let them win regardless, they’ll never be accountable again - and that’s honestly even worse than letting the evil clowns drive.
Again, I agree Israel’s response has been excessive to the point of genocidal - but the Republicans would gleefully endorse and encourage worse. Biden has been openly lukewarm in his support and if reports are accurate he’s been railing on Netanyahu. I hate the devil’s bargain we have of supporting Israeli acts no matter what but as trivial as it is on the ground we let the UN measure pass which was telling and unprecedented.
Again, the principled opposition while justified will only promote far worse. Given that what is the logical decision?
Cut off aid, draw a line, have moral principles, have something you refuse to support.
Or lose.
That’s the decision, and it’s theirs to make.
I don’t know that the election would actually turn on this but I shudder to think how much worse it will get writ large if Trump gets back in the White House but I also don’t expect us to turn our back on Israel so….who knows.
“I plan to vote for the fascist who will deport me and my family out of the country. Won’t you join me in destroying American democracy outright instead of shifting the Overton Window to the left by voting progressive people in and looking forward to 2028?”
“Vote for the guy genociding your people or you will be deported.” Nice.
You do know that trump is %1000 worse than Biden. Dude is literally ok with deporting anyone they don’t like.
they said they would vote for a so called third party. that’s voting against fascists.
In the American system, voting for the 3rd party is voting for Republicans.
this is misinformation. the votes must be counted for whoever the voter chooses.
No it’s not. In a 2 party system, Republican voters vote straight Republican, regardless.They see that r and they pull the trigger. Democrats, on the other hand are a much broader tent. They encompass everybody else that isn’t Is die hard republican.
What pool of voters do you think are gonna be drawn mostly to a green party ticket? It’s not gonna be republican voters
So in conclusion when you have a third party ticket it inevitably will weaken the democrat vote thereby putting republicans in power
Thus demonstrating that America is not a democracy, it only pretends to be.
It’s a democracy that’s been hijacked by two parties.
Which is exactly what George Washington warned about in his farewell address:
"Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely ought of sight) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise People to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another."- George Washington Farewell Address September 19, 1796
Jesus you guys have it all backwards, someone needs to overhaul this crap
You’re not wrong, but there’s no incentive for the people operating in the current system to change that system.
Democrats, on the other hand are a much broader tent. They encompass everybody else that isn’t Is die hard republican.
no, they don’t. if that were true then no one would vote for any party except democrats and republicans. that’s not the case, so you’re incorrect.
What pool of voters do you think are gonna be drawn mostly to a green party ticket? It’s not gonna be republican voters
the pool who don’t like war and environmental destruction
Enjoy president Trump, a man who will guarantee the complete annihilation of Palestine, you moron.
If neither of the candidates are pro Palestine, then this issue is moot and not an election issue. Deal with it through your reps in Congress, which are the ones you should have been going after to begin with. This isn’t a presidential decision stupid
There is actually a right way to do this – Ralph Nader talked about it in his article in Mother Jones. Basically, you decide on something you tactically can achieve, get a coalition together, communicate to the candidate that you’re asking them to do X, Y and Z in order to earn your vote, and then follow through. That effectively puts pressure on the Democrats to start to pursue decent things instead of the grim neoliberal crap they tend to like to do when they’re left to their own devices.
Just deciding you’re going to make a private decision to protect the Palestinians by refusing to vote for Biden, when Trump is 100 times worse on the Palestinians as well as many many other people, doesn’t make any goddamned sense. You’re wrong two times over – one for failing to be vocal enough about your priorities to make a difference, and then again by failing to support the obviously better choice (in cases like this where the worse choice is absolutely catastrophically bad, for the Palestinians as well as for many other people.)
The vote for aid to Israel is coming up this week, separated out from the Ukraine aid, and a lot of Democrats seem like they’re waking up to the idea that supporting Israel is a monstrous crime. Infinitely more productive than voting third party would be to call your congresspeople and tell their staff how you feel about it, right now of all times.
they never said it would protect anyone
Just deciding you’re going to make a private decision to protect the Palestinians by refusing to vote for Biden…
You’re commenting on an article in The Guardian. People are protesting in the streets. The uncommitted movement is seeking out all the media coverage they can get. The ask, a permanent ceasefire, has been stated loud and clear from the beginning. They are literally doing everything you are suggesting they do.
I do think there’s some fairness to this – I was talking more to the person reading the article that the person who wrote it. Writing an editorial to put pressure on the candidate sounds fine to me.
At the same time, I don’t think you can say the ask has been stated loud and clear, when the article says not “I won’t vote for Joe Biden unless he does X” but “I am not going to vote for Joe Biden and will not change my mind; at this point I prefer to enable a much worse outcome for the Palestinians instead.”
My eyes rolled out of my head the moment you said Ralph Nader
His organization was the one that got us OSHA, the Freedom of Information Act, and the Consumer Product Safety Act. What have you done that makes you qualified on producing change in Washington?
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I think we’re done here 🙂
Yet you keep replying
Good luck if Trump gets elected.
Voting for or allowing Trump to be elected by inaction, will result in injustices a thousand times worse.
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Even though it says they’ll only vote uncommitted in the dems primary, they probably will vote elsewhere in the November election too. I kind of get it, these people are losing families and friends, losing their nation. If both candidates are going to let Palestine anyways, you may as well try and hurt the one who isn’t doing it right now. What else have they got to lose in their minds? I can’t feign to imagine the fear and helplessness these people are feeling right now, to live under the rule of people who would watch and fund the burning of your people.
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