We've all been there right? You paid for a game, it required an active internet connection and a couple of years later the publisher decided they're done with it and shut it down leaving you with a broken game. Annoying.
First and foremost: Maybe don’t rally this around a game where basically everyone’s response was “… that was still a thing?” and we were looking at very low (was it outright double digit?) concurrents leading up to it being killed.
That said: I also think this… completely ignores the realities of development and is dangerously close to a “lazy devs” rhetoric? The idea that devs “just” have to make an offline unlocked version before they sunset a game sounds great. Same with building out self-hosting infrastructure and… emulators for MMOs. Okay
(numbers might be slightly off, roll with me) January alone saw about as many layoffs across gaming as we had in all of 2023. The people who work in those studios don’t have time to sit down and test out some self hosting infrastructure for the game they put their heart and soul into for the past two years. They are busy frantically calling anyone they know to find leads for a job, updating their linkedin, and ripping copper out of the walls in the hopes of making rent.
We are well past the era where “Well. This was a good run but let’s quietly put down this game and get started on the next” is the norm. The reality is that you have smaller studios frantically trying to spin up two or three development pipelines to make sure they always have “a hit”. And corporate studios who fully understand that the moment they are “done” with a project they are ripe to be laid off to increase profits for that quarter.
So I can definitely see an Embracer group signing this for the PR. And, having lived similar bullshit in a different industry, I can see them using this as a weapon against the workers. “Hey guys. I know we are all down because of the announcement that all of you are gonna go fuck off and die so that I can get a bigger parachute. But we have a responsibility to our shareholders and customers to finish this one last project. So we are going to pay you an extra two or three weeks to do these tickets. And if you don’t accomplish your responsibilities we will fire you with cause and take your severance. So… get the fuck to work, I got a hooker coming at 10. Oh, and we don’t need art assets so security will come and escort Johnson out of the building. Go team!”
I dunno. On the surface… this still looks naive. But I like the spirit and do wish more games would be developed with an offline mode (even if I know, as a developer/engineer, that that just means a lot of work for minimal benefit to customers). But this REALLY feels like it is going to be right up there with the other insanity if/when people talk about “gamergate 2.0”. Like, I am getting MASSIVE Total Biscuit vibes where he is saying stuff we all are thinking but rapidly becomes a rallying cry for chuds and never does anything to really reject that.
I want to point out that the reason The Crew is being pointed out and focused specifically is because it was a large game sold to 12m people and it’s a game from France, a country with fantastic consumer protection laws.
It’s being focused because it’s the game with the best shot of having legal action success NOT because it’s the most loved game of all time.
12 million sales isn’t actually all that much relative to major games. France definitely is nice (even if the track record of EU rulings having meaningful impact is very hit or miss).
But it still undermines this as “a movement”. When the first response is “no shit that game got delisted?” you immediately give ammunition for why this is untenable.
As a formal complaint/lawsuit to bring to the government (I actually don’t know how a semi-functional government works because 'merica)? I would still be wary of something that could be deemed as “reasonable” to drop. But it is probably one of the better examples. But that is still more the kind of thing that you have people say “Wait… we are complaining about fucking The Crew?” rather than starting from that standpoint.
Why should any game (a piece of art with thousands of hours of work from developers and artists) have to ever vanish… Literally ever… I can’t think of a single reason no matter what the game is. It doesn’t matter if it was a big success or a small game on itch.
Not at all what I am arguing. I am actually all for preservation and strongly feel that all games/movies/tv/books/whatever needs to either be actively available for purchase at a reasonable price or is fair game for the Internet Archives of the world. Either get your shit together and sell it on GoG or deal with people downloading the ISOs.
But this is not that. This is “Developers need to add features in when they sunset a game”. Which is a much stronger discussion and increasingly has the issue of those developers being increasingly out of a job.
Which… is why I am very curious if even France would rule in favor of this (after the obligatory smoke break or twelve). Because yes, consumer rights are good. So are worker’s rights. And this would disproportionately impact indie devs and corporate studios being shuttered.
Which is why a game that had like ten fans might not be a good rallying cry.
As for why something might deserve to vanish? The cliche example is an actor or actress who did porn when they were just starting out and needed to make rent. Consent is incredibly murky in those situations and, if it resurfaces, tends to go really shitty, really fast. Same with directors and writers who decide “maybe that edgelord movie about how pedophilia isn’t any worse than engaging in capitalsm since you are raping people either way wasn’t the best thing to put my name on…”.
Similarly? While I wouldn’t be TOO surprised either way since he seems pretty cool during interviews, I would be shocked if Elliot Page wouldn’t prefer that Beyond Two Souls never existed considering how much sexual harassment was involved in the making of it (not to mention the anatomically accurate nude model that was clearly just for david cage to masturbate to). Yes, a large team worked hard on that and a lot of people love the game (albeit, more in a “let’s clown on this for Content” kind of way) but… yeah.
And that doesn’t even get into shit like Traci Lords’ early work that is outright illegal to possess. Preserve that shit in the Library of Congress but there is zero reason that should be publicly accessible. Is it The Guy Game or whatever that is the video game that includes underage porn?
Yup. But discussions of the impact of venture capital/investors largely abandoning gaming and the importance of Week One sales don’t line up with “Fucking scammers are stealing our games and you are a traitor if you buy any game before it is 90% off on g2a” talking points.
Wheras “lazy devs don’t want to put the effort in to finish their games” is what gets you views and an army of rabid supporters.
I know it makes people cranky, but look at Yuzu “becoming” Suyu. All the Suyu team really has is memes and the ability to selfhost a gitlab. They don’t have the resources to maintain or develop the emulator themselves. And it is only a matter of time until one or more yuzu “forks” become bitcoin miners that improved support for the latest Mario game or whatever. Personally? I would rather NOLF remain in limbo than for it to become synonymous with viruses and stolen crypto.
Licensing? It depends how the company handled it but it is generally “a dick move” to change the license of an existing codebase without the consent of the developers. So you either end up flattening all history (and thus, nobody gets credit for the work they did) or you need to make sure that Jeff who left the company four years ago is cool suddenly getting pinged on issues with the cape physics code he forgot about.
AND that also assumes that it used no proprietary resources. Maybe that cape physics code is REAL good and the company doesn’t want to have to throw that away when it can still give them an advantage for a new title. Or it might be as simple as depending on an internal build farm or tool. While we all make fun of them for it, there is a reason Facebook/Meta developers are fucking idiots when it comes to git. Because Sapling was designed to fit their needs and workflow and changes just enough that you can never trust a former meta dev to understand anything about VCS. But… that also becomes an issue if you are just uploading it to Microsoft’s Github.
Also: This gets into territory that even as an anonymous user I am going to tiptoe around but understand that it is not uncommon to work with vendors and other support staff who will gladly contribute essential code that you more or less have a legal department’s worth of paperwork saying you won’t share.
First and foremost: Maybe don’t rally this around a game where basically everyone’s response was “… that was still a thing?” and we were looking at very low (was it outright double digit?) concurrents leading up to it being killed.
That said: I also think this… completely ignores the realities of development and is dangerously close to a “lazy devs” rhetoric? The idea that devs “just” have to make an offline unlocked version before they sunset a game sounds great. Same with building out self-hosting infrastructure and… emulators for MMOs. Okay
(numbers might be slightly off, roll with me) January alone saw about as many layoffs across gaming as we had in all of 2023. The people who work in those studios don’t have time to sit down and test out some self hosting infrastructure for the game they put their heart and soul into for the past two years. They are busy frantically calling anyone they know to find leads for a job, updating their linkedin, and ripping copper out of the walls in the hopes of making rent.
We are well past the era where “Well. This was a good run but let’s quietly put down this game and get started on the next” is the norm. The reality is that you have smaller studios frantically trying to spin up two or three development pipelines to make sure they always have “a hit”. And corporate studios who fully understand that the moment they are “done” with a project they are ripe to be laid off to increase profits for that quarter.
So I can definitely see an Embracer group signing this for the PR. And, having lived similar bullshit in a different industry, I can see them using this as a weapon against the workers. “Hey guys. I know we are all down because of the announcement that all of you are gonna go fuck off and die so that I can get a bigger parachute. But we have a responsibility to our shareholders and customers to finish this one last project. So we are going to pay you an extra two or three weeks to do these tickets. And if you don’t accomplish your responsibilities we will fire you with cause and take your severance. So… get the fuck to work, I got a hooker coming at 10. Oh, and we don’t need art assets so security will come and escort Johnson out of the building. Go team!”
I dunno. On the surface… this still looks naive. But I like the spirit and do wish more games would be developed with an offline mode (even if I know, as a developer/engineer, that that just means a lot of work for minimal benefit to customers). But this REALLY feels like it is going to be right up there with the other insanity if/when people talk about “gamergate 2.0”. Like, I am getting MASSIVE Total Biscuit vibes where he is saying stuff we all are thinking but rapidly becomes a rallying cry for chuds and never does anything to really reject that.
I want to point out that the reason The Crew is being pointed out and focused specifically is because it was a large game sold to 12m people and it’s a game from France, a country with fantastic consumer protection laws.
It’s being focused because it’s the game with the best shot of having legal action success NOT because it’s the most loved game of all time.
12 million sales isn’t actually all that much relative to major games. France definitely is nice (even if the track record of EU rulings having meaningful impact is very hit or miss).
But it still undermines this as “a movement”. When the first response is “no shit that game got delisted?” you immediately give ammunition for why this is untenable.
As a formal complaint/lawsuit to bring to the government (I actually don’t know how a semi-functional government works because 'merica)? I would still be wary of something that could be deemed as “reasonable” to drop. But it is probably one of the better examples. But that is still more the kind of thing that you have people say “Wait… we are complaining about fucking The Crew?” rather than starting from that standpoint.
Why should any game (a piece of art with thousands of hours of work from developers and artists) have to ever vanish… Literally ever… I can’t think of a single reason no matter what the game is. It doesn’t matter if it was a big success or a small game on itch.
Art matters and should be preserved.
Not at all what I am arguing. I am actually all for preservation and strongly feel that all games/movies/tv/books/whatever needs to either be actively available for purchase at a reasonable price or is fair game for the Internet Archives of the world. Either get your shit together and sell it on GoG or deal with people downloading the ISOs.
But this is not that. This is “Developers need to add features in when they sunset a game”. Which is a much stronger discussion and increasingly has the issue of those developers being increasingly out of a job.
Which… is why I am very curious if even France would rule in favor of this (after the obligatory smoke break or twelve). Because yes, consumer rights are good. So are worker’s rights. And this would disproportionately impact indie devs and corporate studios being shuttered.
Which is why a game that had like ten fans might not be a good rallying cry.
As for why something might deserve to vanish? The cliche example is an actor or actress who did porn when they were just starting out and needed to make rent. Consent is incredibly murky in those situations and, if it resurfaces, tends to go really shitty, really fast. Same with directors and writers who decide “maybe that edgelord movie about how pedophilia isn’t any worse than engaging in capitalsm since you are raping people either way wasn’t the best thing to put my name on…”.
Similarly? While I wouldn’t be TOO surprised either way since he seems pretty cool during interviews, I would be shocked if Elliot Page wouldn’t prefer that Beyond Two Souls never existed considering how much sexual harassment was involved in the making of it (not to mention the anatomically accurate nude model that was clearly just for david cage to masturbate to). Yes, a large team worked hard on that and a lot of people love the game (albeit, more in a “let’s clown on this for Content” kind of way) but… yeah.
And that doesn’t even get into shit like Traci Lords’ early work that is outright illegal to possess. Preserve that shit in the Library of Congress but there is zero reason that should be publicly accessible. Is it The Guy Game or whatever that is the video game that includes underage porn?
This is what they should stop doing.
Yup. But discussions of the impact of venture capital/investors largely abandoning gaming and the importance of Week One sales don’t line up with “Fucking scammers are stealing our games and you are a traitor if you buy any game before it is 90% off on g2a” talking points.
Wheras “lazy devs don’t want to put the effort in to finish their games” is what gets you views and an army of rabid supporters.
they could release it all as-is under gpl when they sunset a game and then someone else would do all the work…
I know it makes people cranky, but look at Yuzu “becoming” Suyu. All the Suyu team really has is memes and the ability to selfhost a gitlab. They don’t have the resources to maintain or develop the emulator themselves. And it is only a matter of time until one or more yuzu “forks” become bitcoin miners that improved support for the latest Mario game or whatever. Personally? I would rather NOLF remain in limbo than for it to become synonymous with viruses and stolen crypto.
Licensing? It depends how the company handled it but it is generally “a dick move” to change the license of an existing codebase without the consent of the developers. So you either end up flattening all history (and thus, nobody gets credit for the work they did) or you need to make sure that Jeff who left the company four years ago is cool suddenly getting pinged on issues with the cape physics code he forgot about.
AND that also assumes that it used no proprietary resources. Maybe that cape physics code is REAL good and the company doesn’t want to have to throw that away when it can still give them an advantage for a new title. Or it might be as simple as depending on an internal build farm or tool. While we all make fun of them for it, there is a reason Facebook/Meta developers are fucking idiots when it comes to git. Because Sapling was designed to fit their needs and workflow and changes just enough that you can never trust a former meta dev to understand anything about VCS. But… that also becomes an issue if you are just uploading it to Microsoft’s Github.
Also: This gets into territory that even as an anonymous user I am going to tiptoe around but understand that it is not uncommon to work with vendors and other support staff who will gladly contribute essential code that you more or less have a legal department’s worth of paperwork saying you won’t share.