Regarding Beehaw defederating from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, this post goes into detail on the why and the philosophy behind that decision. Additionally, there is an update specific to sh.itjust.works here.
For now, let’s talk about what federation is and what defederation means for members of Beehaw or the above two communities interacting with each other, as well as the broader fediverse.
Federation is not something new on the internet. Most users use federated services every day (for instance, the url used to access instances uses a federated service known as DNS, and email is another system that functions through federation.) Just like those services, you elect to use a service provider that allows you to communicate with the rest of the world. That service provider is your window to work with others.
When you federate, you mutually agree to share your content. This means that posting something to a site can be seen by another and all comments are shared. Even users from other sites can post to your site.
Now when you defederate, this results in content to be no longer shared. It didn’t reverse any previous sharing or posts, it just stops the information from flowing with the selected instance. This only impacts the site’s that are called out.
What this means to you is when a user within one instance (e.g. Beehaw) that’s chosen to defederate with another (e.g. lemmy.world), they can no longer interact with content on another instance, and vice versa. Other instances can still see the content of both servers as though nothing has happened.
- A user is not limited to how many instances they can join (technically at least - some instance have more stringent requirements for joining than others do)
- A user can interact with Lemmy content without being a user of any Lemmy instance - e.g. Mastodon (UI for doing so is limited, but it is still possible.)
Considering the above, it is important to understand just how much autonomy we, as users have. For example, as the larger instances are flooded with users and their respective admins and mods try to keep up, many, smaller instances not only thrive, but emerge, regularly (and even single user instances - I have one for just myself!) The act of defederation does not serve to lock individual users out of anything as there are multiple avenues to constantly maintain access to, if you want it, the entirety of the unfiltered fediverse.
On that last point, another consideration at the individual level is - what do you want out of Lemmy? Do you want to find and connect with like-minded people, share information, and connect at a social and community level? Do you want to casually browse content and not really interact with anyone? These questions and the questions that they lead to are critical. There is no direct benefit to being on the biggest instance. In fact, as we all deal with this mass influx, figure out what that means for our own instances and interactions with others, I would argue that a smaller instance is actually much better suited for those who just want to casually browse everything.
Lastly, and tangential, another concern I have seen related to this conversation is people feeling afraid of being locked out of the content and conversation from the “main” communities around big topics starting to form across the Lemmiverse (think memes, gaming, tech, politics, news, etc.) Over time, certain communities will certainly become a default for some people just given the community size (there will always be a biggest or most active - it’s just a numbers game.) This, again though, all comes down to personal preference and what each individual is looking to get from their Lemmy experience. While there may, eventually, be a “main” sub for <topic xyz> (again, by the numbers), there will also always be quite a few other options for targeted discussions on <topic xyz>, within different communities, on different instances, each with their own culture and vibe. This can certainly feel overwhelming and daunting (and at the moment, honestly it is.) Reddit and other non-federated platforms provided the illusion of choice, but this is what actual choice looks and feels like.
[edit: grammar and spelling]
This also just is the time defederation happens most. When populations grow faster than people can manage.
Taking on the responsibility of hosting a community website means doing what you think is best for they community. For a place with clear rules and established norms, that means upholding those rules. And if you can’t uphold them against the sheer number of people flooding in, then it means reducing the number of people.
No one website is responsible to the network. This is not a power trip. Though this is about people protecting their “precious communities”, as you so judgementally put it. Because they set up their site to create a coherent community.
If you way to be a part of it, you can apply to join. If you don’t, then you’re not entitled to interact with them.
I do not disagree that defederation will happen. In fact no one actually even know how federation would look like here at all. It’s all experimental at this point.
In fact, Kbin did defederated from the network once. Unlike beehaw, it was a lot shorter, the purpose was clear and handled quickly, without so much drama. What I am saying is that the situation is handled like crap. All these talks and it just reminds me of the same old reddit mods power struggle than what people are trying to paint federation as.
I do intend to interact with communities that I do want to interact with - just as how I did it on reddit before - once actual community members can move over from reddit without being tangled in this faction wars. You cannot just ignore that a lot of people def do not want to leave reddit to lemmy due to these drama.
This seems like a snipe at me for no reason. I have no interested in “interacting” with the big boys here while they are doing their own things and I do not have the interest nor expertise to fix their issues. My time and interest would better be spend on hobbyist communities that I do like to interact with as I do previously on reddit.
Beehaw’s defederation purpose is very clear, and they didn’t start the drama. The mods of Beehaw started it as a safe space for minorities and marginalized communities, which is why you have to apply for an account there in the first place. The rapid expansion of the Fediverse led to their server being flooded with comments from other lemmy instances that the mods were trying to avoid by the creation of beehaw in the first place, so they chose to defederate. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
If you don’t like it, that’s fine. They didn’t do it for you. They did it for them and for their users. If you don’t like it, you can create an account on an instance they still federate with.
also just to hop in here and underscore a really important point: THE DRAMA IS LITERALLY ALL USERS BEING WEIRD ABOUT THIS. NOBODY ON THE ADMIN SIDE CARES. WE ARE LITERALLY COORDINATING WITH THE PEOPLE WE DEFEDERATED WITH (and a bunch of other folks) TO MAKE THE PLATFORM BETTER SO WE DON’T EVEN HAVE TO DO THIS. THERE IS NO ENMITY BETWEEN US AT ALL. this is so fucking weird to watch play out, because it’s all people getting mad on behalf of their instances when everybody behind the scenes is chill and understands!
I think that’s becoming A Thing ™️ on the fediverse recently. I’ve seen this exact scenario play out on the microblogging side more than once.
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Well what you said is what I did. I never support the goal of beehaw to make a curated communities in the first place because I do not think such idea is healthy (nor it represent much for things outside of USA imo), but it really does not effect me in any way.
What I strongly disagree with is the idea of defederation is a “normal” thing to do: it’s only make sense specifically because they want to make a curated communities, and nothing else. People who paint it otherwise are making excuse from my point of view (which is the point of my original post). And the strife I have with them is the whole drama they essentially caused.
But this doesn’t make any sense at all. Defederation is like… the main power afforded to us by creating a federated system. It’s practically the only way instances can actually make themselves unique because it’s the only power they have compared to their Reddit counterparts.
Defederation can’t possibly “not be normal” because otherwise the system of instances and joining your favorite one becomes a complete illusion.
Like imagine this. The Reddit admins set site wide rules and the Reddit moderators set rules for their subreddits. Each user must follow the site and sub rules or have their content removed or account suspended, in the case of a site rule violation. Now, the fediverse is different than that. People posting in a community in lemmy.world are only responsible for the rules of that community and for that instance. But their content also affects other instances who might have stricter rules.
And what are the admins to do about that? The one issue which faces federated sites that doesn’t affect Reddit and it just so happens to be solved by the single moderation tool which the fediverse gets which Reddit doesn’t.
The only drama I’ve seen on it is a few idealists on other instances complaining about it and these posts.
I actually like beehaw more as an instance because of what they’ve done.
Nilay Patel had a great article when Elon bought Twitter. One of the key take aways I tend to agree with is:“The essential truth of every social network is that the product is content moderation, and everyone hates the people who decide how content moderation works.”
I love being part of a community and being able to discuss and debate. But ultimately I want to do it in a place where I don’t feel creeped out, skeevy, or where I am getting harassed or threatened.
I value the moderation. I value the curation. I want the mods to defederate if they see an influx of trolls, shit posts, or sketchy content from a particular instance.
And you know what, I’ll be annoyed when they block something or someone I don’t think they should have.
The reality is: the fediverse is designed for this sort of thing. Theyve been very transparent and they will re federate when the tooling is better. I have no reason to doubt that.
I see this as growing pains and nothing more.