The admins on lemmynsfw.com have decided to allow “non-IRL loli”, i.e. drawn porn involving children/teenagers. (Post: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29633).
Irrelevant of the moral issues that this poses, such content is illegal in many countries (e.g the UK). Continuing to federate with lemmynsfw.com will put users at risk of significant legal repercussions.
Please would the admins consider defederating unless lemmynsfw change their policy.
UPDATE: The lemmynsfw admins posted an clarification here: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29826. My original argument for defederating doesn’t stand any more.
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If any illegal content would be posted there, let us know. If it’s 1 community, we can block the community. If it’s all over the place, we can defederate. But I see defederation as a last resort. If there are other ways to keep our server safe I prefer that.
Thank you for taking the conservative approach to moderating instead of nuking from orbit.
They did make a poll and then later announced they’ll be banning underage anime art and IRL imagery . But not art of cute/short characters because it’s impossible to discern if they’re over 18 or not. It’s the whole Pokemon debate all over again.
I think it’s worth pointing out that legality depends on jurisdiction and while it’s obviously a requirement to obey the your (and other admins’) local laws, it’s not quite so clear-cut when it comes to other countries.
Eg. It’s illegal to criticize Hong Kong’s government under their National Security Law. But I think we’d (the community here, not just you and me) agree that lemmy.world has absolutely no obligation to follow that law.
Also worth pointing out in crimes of this manner intent also matters in many places.
If someone sends you that shit out of the blue, or you scroll by it while browsing the internet, there wasn’t a damn thing you could do. If you saved the image now we have a problem, ideally you take steps to ensure you won’t see that image or anything like it again but I don’t even think that would be legally required in alot of places…
Also, when you set Type to
Subscribedin Settings the front page default feed only contains posts from communities you have actually subscribed to.This does not prevent
lemmy.worldfrom accidently hosting illegal content, but it helps to protect your own feed from unwanted stuff.
2 weeks ago: Lemmy is so amazing, create an account anywhere and you can access everything! It’s like forums but better!
Now: defederate >:(
Ugh. I get the concern in scenarios like this, but in the last couple of days every instance has calls to defederate from this or that. Eventually it’s just gonna be small islands of “very compatible” instances.
Well, guess it’s back to making separate accounts for everything!
Defederation leads to echo chambers. I’ve certainly had enough of that in Reddit!
That’s a bit dramatic. Most of the big instances will stay federated with most of the others.
Some topics that are just too intolerable to the general population will get isolated. Pedo content, Nazis, etc. if you feel you need to make a second account to go participate in those things, well you do you I guess…
Well, Beehaw already defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, a few fairly normal instances don’t federate with lemmy.ml, even more don’t federate with lemmigrad, calls to defed from lemmynsfw were there from its very first day, never mind burggit.
Like, okay I get it that it’s not a drop-in Reddit replacement and instance owners can do whatever they like - but I still wonder where it leads at the end.
Well lemmy.ml is run by pretty much the same people as lemmygrad. Before the Reddit drama .ml was filled with mostly the same kind of politics. They chose the .ml extension to signify Marxism-Leninism I believe. So it’s not that surprising that some have blocked them.
But anyway, where does it lead? We’re just in flux. Everyone is figuring everything out. Instances will stabilize. Norms will be established. Everything will be fine. Some pockets will get isolated, but I believe the vast majority will stay together. Once in a while there will be some drama, some splits and spats. It’ll be fine, people will shift. Balance will return.
Well, maybe. I’m just skeptical and feel that people have more of a tendency to isolate their islands rather than connect.
And once the disconnect happens, it’s difficult to reverse.
Maybe I’m wrong. Guess we’ll see.
On the other hand, there’s the advantage that if one finds “their own” instance, they are free to speak out their mind, while in the big melting pot there’s always a risk of offending somebody by just being a little edgy. Whether that’s actually a good thing…
In time, things settle. Those that defederate too much will soon become self-isolated and that’s totally fine. Most of the servers will remain federated and will be the body that everyone wants to connect with and others may be very happy to self-isolate and not caring about any other servers or their communities.
What I do find possible is that the owners of federated servers will start to form a governing “council” that share some agreed principles for content and the allied servers would all defederate from any server that violates their shared content rules. To join the main group, you have to agree to abide by the council rules or be defederated as well (for example a server asks to join the main group, then also feds with a piracy server on the group ban list, so it gets defederated by the group).
I feel like NSFW stuff will be fine here, but the questionable, non-consensual stuff will not even be visible by the main group. The federated servers will be the content core, the unfederated servers will be like the wild west, full of questionable and potentially dangerous stuff.
Just give it some time, this is sudden and unexpected growth. It’s healthy. I think people are starting to see just how corporate social media is, and how much they are both the content generators as well as the content consumers. So steps to take back the control of how we communicate is a win for us.
With the idea of self-hosted decentralized servers also comes a responsibility. With sites like reddit, the corporation behind it is responsible for everything, including moderating potentially illegal content. With lemmy, this is on the individual servers to handle.
I think it’s a bit silly to get all dramatic and say stuff like “Well, guess it’s back to making separate accounts for everything!” just because instances allowing potentially illegal cp are to be de-federated…
I’d say the kbin integration was a pretty big win? And there are tons of new servers coming up - I wouldn’t worry about losing a few. There are other nsfw communities as well.
De-federating from someone is totally fine, and that should be up to instance owners (ideally with some input from users)
Exactly, defederation is just a tool and it’s up to the owners to use it when appropriate and in line with their goals for the instance.
For example when brigading happened on Reddit some subreddits had to go private to defend themselves, with Lemmy the owners can defederate from the offending instance instead but still keep access open for everyone else. Another aspect is the legal side, as someone else also mentioned the content OP talks about is illegal in many countries and due to the way the Fediverse works owners of the federated instances will end up linking and hosting that illegal content on their own servers as well, unless they defederate.
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I wish there was a way to exclude the whole instance from my personal feed without requiring admins to defederate it. Right now I have to play whackamole with new communities popping up. And it’s not just the NSFW stuff.
I’m taking the opposite approach, that is, instead of blocking what I don’t want to see, I join what I do want to see.
Blocking is not effective if you want a “curated” feed IMO, new communities are being created all the time, especially now that many are migrating over from reddit, you might never “end” blocking stuff.
OP post is a different situation though, that kind of content is illegal in many countries (especially EU), just being federated with them could pose a legal risk, it’s not just stuff some people don’t want to see.
I’ve been browsing through new as a way of finding communities to join. The NSFW stuff in that feed is unideal but easy enough to ignore, whereas content that could send me to jail is a whole different ballgame.
You should make a correction because your original post isn’t true
https://www.europol.europa.eu/crime-areas-and-statistics/crime-areas/child-sexual-exploitation
quote:
Child sexual exploitation refers to the sexual abuse of a person below the age of 18, as well as to the production of images of such abuse and the sharing of those images online.
Your post clarifies they ban content of “youngsters” being not obviously underage, it’s not the same legally as to say someone is 18+ years old.
whereas content that could send me to jail is a whole different ballgame
Exactly. And as someone else already pointed out, it just takes a single user subscribing there to have that content cached here, that would put all of us at risk from a legal point of view.
You can make this even nicer, just originally join instance that doesn’t federate with nsfw, and then make another account to lemmynsfw instance, and add both of them to client. You can with one click jump between accounts at least in jerboa.
This makes a nice experience to control what you see and when
You can turn off the ability to see NSFW posts in your profile. It’s not ideal since some NSFW isn’t porn, but I’d rather miss a handful of things than spend all day blocking porn and fetish subs
I have always hated “NFSW” being such a large blanket. NFSW does not exclusively mean “porn”.
They really need to add in an NSFL feature
Big agree. I don’t really mind non-porn NSFW stuff since I browse on my phone, but NSFL stuff is an instant no thanks for me.
I agree, there are some memes that are NFSW while not being porn at all, I wish there was a way to distinguish them.
Yeah a lot have been asking for this, hopefully it can be added.
Open source, so I’m sure someone can. Platform is very young - I suspect that as it gains popularity, more people will contribute to source, and we’ll eventually see more options for customization. Both at the user level and the instance level giving people more reasons to choose other instances over just population of it.
As a federation shouldn’t we start with Diplomacy? This is a prime example. We didn’t wait long enough, and it was clarified rather quickly.
Defederation should require more deliberation and unless an immediate emergency shouldn’t there be other actions under consideration first.
I think there should at least be some type of poll or mod to mod discussion on having them try to combat it on their end.
I’m not sure if that’s sustainable but I thinm Lemmynsfw is the best porn content on here currently, and it seems that people like porn.
I agree there should be diplomacy first.
But I guess now, a CP free nsfw instance will start to gain traction and well be alright long term as things sort themselves out.
Why would we need to defederate? Just don’t subscribe to their communities and you won’t see their content
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That’s the case for anything that anyone posts on any federated server.
They did post an update about it
Looks like its less about blatant loli/shota content and more about “characters who are petite/young-looking but not obviously underage”
How and if that changes anyones feelings about it is up to them.
I don’t care about drawings, there are no victims, but if it’s illegal by law it poses a problem.
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Pretty sure we are hosted on Hetzner in Germany, which makes this very problematic, especially if the admins of lemmynsfw aren’t able to properly identify illegal content right away and it spreads through the whole network.
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Owning child porn in Germany is very much illegal and a fast track to jail time.
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Holy fuck ist das krank.
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“characters who arepetitee/young-looking but not obviously underage”
yeah of course they’re not gonna come out and say “yeah we want to host and share drawn CSAM” and they’re going to be weasely and sneaky about it, do you really plan to take pedophiles and pedophile enablers at the honor of their word here
I think those countries should put the resources used to go after neckbeards fapping to drawings to investigate people trafficking real children.
the venn diagram is a circle
also, that aside, “the resources” here are a little different, mounting investigative operations to bust lolicons/pedophiles (same thing) requires more resources than just flipping the switch off on some pedophile’s ability to communicate freely
Are you the kind of person that says people playing FPS games are more likely to become mass shooters?
It might not be our liking but loli is at worst a victimless crime, not the same as the real pedophiles (eg Epstein’s associates, like Prince Andrew). I think by saying they’re the same, you’re actually belittling the gravity of the other.
It’s not the assault, violence or having a victim making them a pedophile. It’s the attraction to minors. It doesn’t matter if fictional or real, they are pedophiles.
Many of them probably even act in it, e.g. masturbation.
It’s reprehensible but if they’re not really acting on it, as in harming someone else (masturbation, really?), then why should it be a crime and the state be involved? What are you suggesting is that the mere thought of it, involving fictional people at that, should be a crime. Are we certain we want thoughtcrime?
That sort of vilification only makes them more likely to hide instead of seeking professional help. Why would they, if doing so would open them to ostracization?
You are jumping to conclusions here. Also just thinking of extremes is not helpful. Acting on your desires to perform sexual acts with children is absolutely pedophilic behavior. So masturbating is just that. It is not just a thought, it is an action. Even though non pedophiles don’t even have these thoughts without disgust.
Just ask yourself, would you ever be comfortable leaving a child alone with someone who sexualizes children? My answer would be absolutely not, they are pedophiles and a huge risk to the childs safety.
How to solve this or manage the risk is another way more complicated topic.
This is a really good argument until you learn that mass shooters are less than one in a million but child sexual abusers are more than one in a hundred, despite there being tens of millions of FPS players and probably only hundreds of thousands of CSAM consumers in America. It’s a catchy gotcha but it completely fails to hold up under material scrutiny.
Mass shootings and child sexual abuse are very different things, and so are CSAM and video games. You would benefit from losing some of the reductivism you’ve got there.
You’re actually supporting my point. Despite tens of millions of FPS players, there’s only less than one in a million cases of mass shooting. Meanwhile child abuse is more common despite loli stuff being uncommon in US compared to places like Japan. This to me seems like an argument to say there’s no correlation between the fictional and real counterparts.
If anything, being unable to set apart reality from fiction and saying both are the same is the reductionist stance.
It feels like partitioning off the NSFW stuff is maybe not a bad idea. Seriously, this might be an area where having multiple Lemmy instances is a good thing. It’s still there, and accessible to anyone who wants it, but folks scrolling Lemmy at work don’t have to worry about something they don’t want to see at the moment showing up. Nobody is saying it can’t exist, but most people don’t have their porn in the same place as their regular reading! So why should it be included in the SFW instances?
You can simply not activate the “show nsfw” checkbox and you will never see that stuff in your feed
Not true, I’ve checked it and I still see a ton of posts in porn subs that aren’t marked as nsfw. Not the end of the world but still somewhat annoying.
I’ve noticed that that doesn’t always work. User profile pictures can be NSFW and still be shown. And the ‘random’ posts box will show NSFW images sometimes as well.
It’s something to be looked at to make sure all the edge cases are covered, so that the “show NSFW” check box being unchecked actually does prevent all NSFW stuff from being shown.
I’m not worried about it too much. It’s just growing pains as the #threadiverse gets on its feet. The devs will fix it in the code, and until then the user can block stuff manually, which is what I have been doing.
please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think this will even block a video on a normal feed with a lot of swearing if someone marks it NSFW.
People sometimes mark nsfw to be silly for a crocheted penis or a cat in a funny position. I don’t want to miss those.
That is true, yet it’s also misuse of the NSFW button. It’s specifically for depictions that are adult, not for spoken words that are adult.
And yet, those in-office users may not want an unexpected burst of swearing emanating from their devices.
No problem with that, but that’s not what the NSFW switch is for.
I’m not disputing that, just making a note. I’m not in an office currently, but I do try to be considerate.
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That’s an issue that will go away shortly. On Reddit admins could mark a subreddit as NSFW by default and all content would hold that tag. That feature currently doesn’t exist on Lemmy so people are just sometimes forgetting to check the NSFW box. Jerboa also does not have the box to check at all. I believe the feature is coming soon.
You speak about the “All” section. NSFW communities should not appear there like they don’t do on Reddit either.
True, but all this talk of whether or not to federate… It feels like everyone wants to be all nice and inclusive because that’s how we’re supposed to be to people, but in this case the way the fediverse works kind of lends itself to organically separating SFW and NSFW instances. It just kind of makes sense.
UPDATE: The lemmynsfw admins posted an clarification here: https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29826. My original argument for defederating doesn’t stand any more.
Drawn a.k.a. not real and not obviously underage a.k.a. not attempting to depict illegal situations, doesn’t seem like a problem.
Although I agree there should be more ways to filter instances, per user. A blacklist along with the whitelist that is subscription. Show local, show subscribed, show everything (except blacklisted).
Looking a bit they are struggling to come up with a comprehensive policy. Thats gonna be a giant pain in the ass. I wish them luck. In the meantime I’d have a bit of patience and just report anything that is illegal.
Edit: They’ve made an update claiming it was bad English. https://lemmynsfw.com/post/29826 - I think they should take a harder line but I will have to continue monitoring it to decide if I want to keep federating with them. Not a good look tho.
Original comment:
God damnit, I was glad there was an NSFW instance WHY did they have to go do some shit like this
Welp, as an instance admin I’m probably gonna have to defed them.
Those admins are fools. They say they’re not into it, but don’t want to prevent others from it.
Well guess what, it’s like the Nazi bar thing. You can’t just let them be. They’re intolerable to most people so by not banning them your other customers will leave. Congratulations, you now run a Nazi bar.
I foresee most users on lemmynsfw leaving, and it basically just becoming a pedo site.
I don’t know man i think Nazi were allowed to go crazy because most and/or influential people found it beneficial in the time and place. It didn’t happened everywhere. Just as communism etc.
Not that it matters with banning NSFW content. I’ve never got why would people access that via forum anyway.
But i can imagine banning news for posting from sources that are not inline with admins visions or banning science and technology community for being very religious and vice versa if you know what i mean.I don’t know man i think Nazi were allowed to go crazy because most and/or influential people found it beneficial in the time and place.
I wasn’t making a statement about the spread of fascism across a society.
perversion or something idk.
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Doesn’t know the internets rule 34
Gets upset…
I know it. I have no problem with 99% of it. But if it involves children, real or not, I want nothing to do with it. I don’t want users who want that on my instance. I don’t want that content touching my servers.
have no reason to moderate it away unless it’s illegal where they are hosted (lolli isn’t in most countries)
It is in some, and in any case just because it might be legal doesn’t mean it’s okay.
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Nobody needs moral police. I don’t want to see it
And as an admin of an instance, if I don’t block it, and one single user subscribes to it, it will appear on the “All” feed for all of my users.
just because it might be legal doesn’t mean it’s okay.
And WHO decides what’s ok? This is where you are wrong. If it’s legal then it’s ok to have it. I don’t have to like it, but just as I only browsed my own frontpage on reddit with subscribed subreddits in a few days I will have all the communities I need or want and just prowse that exclusively. What someone is posting or liking on communities I do not see is irrelvant to me, obviously, as long as it’s legal.
There is NO room for moral policing here.
That’s cool and all, but if one user on my instance subscribes to some pedo community that I don’t block it will show up in the “All” feed of my instance. For all users.
So me, I decide. If you want an instance that allows pedo crap go find a different one.
I don’t generally ban anything that’s not illegal, but pedophilia and adjacent topics is one such exception.
Pedophelia IS illegal and has no place on this platform. Problem is, YOU want to decide for all of us what legal content should not be. And if you do not realize the error of that way of thinking then in my opinion you are no better than a boik burner.
All of you? You’re not in my instance. I don’t affect you. If you want to go look at sexual drawings of children don’t join my instance.
I’m fine with that. This is an open statement that any such person should avoid my instance. You’re completely free to make or join one that allows such things.
I do not want to look at any type of nsfw content myself, but I also am not arrogant enough to lay down the law for others. You joined a federated platform, your isolisionist thinking belongs to a private forum. This is clearly not the social space for you, and I hope your type finds a nice lityle safespace somwhere to exist.
Drawn CSAM is illegal in Australia, Canada, and most of Europe, as well as several states in the US. People have been prosecuted successfully for possessing loli in the US and UK. It’s not as unusual as you think.
hey friend have you considered that maybe we shouldn’t be adhering to archaic and unenforced “rules” made by christofash pedophiles on a mass shooting message board because of “DAE Le Rule 34? XD”
At least with jerboa you can turn off NSFW so you don’t need to see it. Alternatively just stick to local or subscribed and you don’t have to worry about seeing anything.
NSFW is an option in browser too.
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Guess that’s why I don’t see any. Jerboa for the win!
Note: admins can delete remote communities without having to block the whole instance.
If lemmy.world admins clicked on “remove” on the offending remote communities that would block them but keep access to the rest of the instance.
That said, I understand the concerns.
This would be preferable. There are some communities I follow over there I’d like to still have access too.
That would be optimal if it is possible.
A quick glance at the post gave me the impression lots of people from that instance are against the change. I’d wait and see how things settle before defederating. Defederating is detrimental to lemmy/kbin growth, it should be a last resort approach.
The problem with that approach is that it puts users here in legal jeopardy. Right now if I browse “All” rather than “Local” I’m risking jail time
Not really, mens rea is a pretty universal requirement to be committing a crime
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The problem with that is there are so many. Id rather just be able to block the entire instance all at once. I know for certain I want nothing from lemmynsfw period or any other porn instance. I should be able to just block them off.
Id rather just be able to block the entire instance all at once.
I have no idea whether lemmy supports that, but kbin does, and you’re on kbin.
One would go to something like this:
https://kbin.social/d/lemmynsfw.com
And then just check the crossed circle button in the right-hand sidebar.
EDIT: For completeness, according to this, lemmy does not currently support letting users block entire instances.
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In my mind there’s a big difference between NSFW and child porn, and where I am, that content is considered to be child porn. I’m happy to deal with filtering NSFW content for myself, but I don’t want to risk CP.
The reason I phrased the OP as a question was that I suspect most users here will have a similar view to me and be in favor of blocking servers hosting CP. If that isn’t the case I’ll happily go find another instance, I don’t want to enforce my boundaries on everyone else.
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The problem is that in my country those drawings are legally the same thing as child porn. As I said in the OP, I’m not making a moral judgement here, but as a purely practical matter that content is concerning to me.
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The other issue is that lemmy.world users that subscribe to it will cause the content to be cached on this server too which could create issues for the admin.
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You got it wrong unfortunately. We basically interact with a copy of the federated instance, that lives on lemmy.world. Each change or comment we make gets synced with the true instance and vice versa.
Which also means that if a single user causes for example a child porn community (I don’t care if it’s drawn or not, I don’t discriminate between pedos) to be federated, we would now be hosting child porn on Hetzner servers located in Germany and Ruud would be in pretty serious trouble.
If I recall correctly that is not true for media. Yes the text is the part and the contents are synced over, but a picture attachment is not and that continues to live on the original instance. And that is assuming the image was posted to the server and not linked to an external web host which is usually the case.
So long story short, lemmy.world would not host any questionnaire images even with federation, it would only host hyperlinks.
