When I look at those numbers I think “Apollo was made by 1 dude with some occasional help from another person. Reddit is throwing half its budget and 200+ bodies at its app and site, and it’s a fucking disaster.”
To be fair, the point of Apollo was to also make money. But it was to make money by selling you things that made a nice experience nicer. Reddit makes money by selling you stuff that makes a shitty experience slightly less shitty.
I don’t know the right price point, but 1 dollar a month probably would have worked for most people. It just wasn’t enough because they probably can make more than 1 by spoon feeding you ads now.
They had the userbase. They had the community moderation. They had the power-users basically doing their job for them. They could have had a bulletproof, tied-to-world-population-growth metric - not super fast, but basically monotonically increasing. They basically could have turned it into a sustainable money printer, while not crushing user enthusiasm. Hell, they could have even done an opt- in policy for ML training datasets, either offsetting or outright paying users a commission for content that’s used as part of a training set. There were so many possibilities that didn’t involve pointing the ship at an iceberg.
Spez threw it away because he wanted the quick payout from ad revenue.
Spez threw it away because he’s a libertarian tool. He doesn’t care how he gets the payout as long as it’s not ‘collectivist’. This commie shit your’e spouting in this post would not impress daddy Elon. GTFO.
Didn’t that become an option at some point? I’m sure I’ve read there are apps you can pay for to have access. Fuck that, though. Make it a reasonable price, too, and I’d listen. No way I’m paying a fiver a month for reddit. Maye 1 or 2.
Apps can pay in a ridiculous deal that no app would be able to support. So you either be a pay app that no one downloads, or a free app that gets killed the second it gets too big (And that number was low)
Yeah, but the Apollo dev didn’t have the huge server costs that Reddit has. I’m not defending Reddit at all, but this is just comparing apples to oranges.
Im a way, yeah. They clearly they made a shitty app to extract as much value from their users as possible. But my point was that Reddit has significantly higher costs than third party app developers (because they host the content), so the business model that works for third party app developers doesn’t work for them.
Looking at a third party app - made by someone who doesn’t have to bear the costs of running the site and can therefore make decent money on an ad-free experience - and a first party one which does have to recoup those expenses doesn’t really work. The financial models are just fundamentally different.
I don’t say that to defend Reddit. They’re clearly a shitty company headed by shitty people, and I’m sure they could’ve found different ways to make money. But yeah, their financial incentives for making an app are fundamentally different than those of other devs.
No one was saying reddit couldn’t implement API costs. In fact, every major 3rd party app developer, including Apollo, supported Reddit charging for API access and made suggestions on how such an arrangement could be made that was fair and reasonable to all parties. Reddit even invited these developers to discussions on the topic. However, Reddit’s CEO said fuck that and wanted to charge an insane amount of money for API usage that no 3rd party developers would be able to reasonably afford without asking for an exorbitant amount of money from their users.
This link is really the one that discussed how willing 3rd party devs were to pay for API access if it was a fair cost. Reddit wasn’t interested in being fair.
Server costs don’t force you to make a bloated and shitty app experience. You might have an argument that 3rd party apps put strain on the servers, but that’s just reddits fault for making an awful and borderline unusable UX.
I think he’s arguing that the organization, being several hundred times bigger, makes it a lot harder to focus on one thing, like making the app awesome.
As an example, in an hour long meeting you’d spend x% of the time on server costs, another y% on, i dunno, legal, another % on how to enshittify, and finally 5 minutes on the app.
The goal of Apollo was to make a good app. The goal of the official reddit app is to show you ads and siphon money off you.
Spot fucking on.
Ever have a good app? Something you like using but it’s by a corporation but that’s ok, because it’s a good app and does what you want? And then they start adding more features to it, and it slows down, and it’s more annoying and it keeps offering services you don’t want, and it changes and it morphs and it becomes a shit app.
Hell I’ve watched Whisk become something I liked using to something worthless now it’s Samsung food… Switched to using CopyMeThat which actually also gets me recipes from sites that you can’t just read the recipes from, and that’s ALL it does (well recipe book/shopping cart/meal planning, which is what it’s designed for.)
I’m just sick of “How do we make more money” instead of just being an app that does what it says. Gaming is going down the same hole, sadly.
This is the result of shareholders. Capitalism doesn’t have to turn into this and people can have small businesses that are comfortable and don’t grow. But when you get investment involve the question is always “how do you ‘grow this business’ so I can get a ROI”.
There’s a few cases where that’s not the case, but the majority of the mindset of the modern business world is fast returns, rather than sustainable growth.
It does have a “Community” aspect, but honestly I think it’s quite weak on that. however if you have someone you know and their recipes are public you can see them, but not in any organized sense.
I get your point and you’re not wrong, technically . Technically that is what Reddit is trying to do but you need to remember that this is Reddit. They fucking suuuuuck at everything.
I remember years ago a disaffected ex employee wrote something about what it’s like to work the and in just remember thinking to myself: “Imagine going in to work and they call an important meeting, all hands, to discuss “brigading” and then, without an ounce of irony they proceed to sternly discuss this important topic.”
Just imagine those little snot nosed shots puffed up with so much self importance discussing how these “brigades” are destroying their “bastion of free speech”.
I thought I was going to pule in my own mouth again just typing this.
The comparison is even more apt when you remember that the official Reddit app also used to be the most popular and great 3rd-party app called AlienBlue, which was purchased from 1 guy and rebranded a decade ago.
It’s pretty clear that the reason why the official Reddit app isn’t good is because a good experience for their users isn’t their goal.
The fact that the app is still so bad after so much time has gone by indicates that it is the desired product that the company wants to offer. And after realizing that they were still losing users to better competitors, their solution was to destroy the ability to compete in the first place rather than improve the product.
They like the app as-is, with all of the terrible performance and UX that goes along with it. The reason behind that is because they’re getting user engagement metrics and other telemetry data, more control over ad delivery and the content users see (including astroturfed sponsored Reddit content), and more monetization.
Third party apps, like Apollo and AlienBlue before it, cared about providing a good user experience. It just happens that users typically prefer experiences that aren’t trying to capitalize their every interaction, and companies take that personally.
Alien Blue wasn’t rebranded. They bought it, called it the official app (with the name Alien Blue) for a little while, then launched their own app and stopped supporting AB.
Yeah I paid for alien blue pro or whatever it was called. Then they killed the app and gave me a year of Reddit premium (my memory is shit, idk the proper name). After a month or so I switched to Apollo, Reddit’s app was just so shit. I left when Apollo died and now only use dystopia (an app designed for blind users) for the infrequent times I visit Reddit. No adds. It’s almost read only. But it’s ideal for visiting niche subs that aren’t on lemmy without giving Reddit clicks/seeing ads.
You can also see this with the old website being much better than the new one and apparently there’s an even newer one that people who like the old new one generally hate.
a good experience for their users isn’t their goal
They are in tension with the more pressing goal of extracting revenue. But how do you extract revenue from a site that’s mostly just “user content” + “ads” in an era when ad revenue is plummeting?
This is one of those things where, I totally feel for all the big tech employees who’ve been laid off, and it is ultimately the fault of the companies, but like, that’s just too much.
The API was a fair trade. When they killed it and decided to make LLM money, that was it for me. It wouldn’t matter if they paid me for my contributions (which they aren’t, they want redditors to pay for their exit with stock), the API and free access was the social contract. Its gone. Reddit can fuck off at this point.
Seriously. Reddit is a glorified link sharing service with comments looking for a 6+ billion valuation. Christian and a couple backend devs could recreate it all in a weekend.
Reddit is hopeful that AI training is their golden ticket but in all reality they’ll only ever have one large buyer. OpenAI, Anthropic, Mistral, etc, don’t want something that Gemini already bought.
With all that out of the way, I don’t see very many companies lining up to license a far left-leaning dataset that had all non-echo chamber discussion banned. I mean, look at how much trouble Google got in with an objectively racist Gemini that forced them to turn off human image generation.
Depends on the sub. The news, technology, and politics subs are 99% link sharing. The subs around DIY stuff, health, etc are often people sharing personal experience and advice. The latter is likely the most valuable thing for AI to crawl.
With all that out of the way, I don’t see very many companies lining up to license a far left-leaning dataset that had all non-echo chamber discussion banned.
Maybe this isn’t what you are saying, but Reddit (at least in the past, on smaller more expert subreddits) is no more an echo chamber than any other politically charged community space online, it’s just in other communities the rightwing people who control the levers of power usually don’t let leftists have any kind of voice or power in the first place.
When I look at those numbers I think “Apollo was made by 1 dude with some occasional help from another person. Reddit is throwing half its budget and 200+ bodies at its app and site, and it’s a fucking disaster.”
Different goals. The goal of Apollo was to make a good app. The goal of the official reddit app is to show you ads and siphon money off you.
I guarantee you a good chunk of that R&D money is for making ads more profitable and other monetization.
To be fair, the point of Apollo was to also make money. But it was to make money by selling you things that made a nice experience nicer. Reddit makes money by selling you stuff that makes a shitty experience slightly less shitty.
I said it before on Reddit and I will say it again here—
If Reddit has asked me for a premium subscription to use my favourite third-party app, I would have fucking paid.
Just bad business all around
I don’t know the right price point, but 1 dollar a month probably would have worked for most people. It just wasn’t enough because they probably can make more than 1 by spoon feeding you ads now.
I’d go as far as 5 dollars a month, which is more than the buck thirty they make off users right now.
It just boggles the mind.
They had the userbase. They had the community moderation. They had the power-users basically doing their job for them. They could have had a bulletproof, tied-to-world-population-growth metric - not super fast, but basically monotonically increasing. They basically could have turned it into a sustainable money printer, while not crushing user enthusiasm. Hell, they could have even done an opt- in policy for ML training datasets, either offsetting or outright paying users a commission for content that’s used as part of a training set. There were so many possibilities that didn’t involve pointing the ship at an iceberg.
Spez threw it away because he wanted the quick payout from ad revenue.
Spez threw it away because he’s a libertarian tool. He doesn’t care how he gets the payout as long as it’s not ‘collectivist’. This commie shit your’e spouting in this post would not impress daddy Elon. GTFO.
The fuck are you on about with that last half?
Active users would, I probably would too. Problem is most apps would struggle to even get new users with that system.
100% I did pay for the premium version of Apollo and I absolutely would have paid about £20 a month for access.
It was the #1 most used app on all my devices.
20 a month?! No way in hell reddit app access is worth that.
Not now perhaps, but then it was. To me. I’d not pay them a farthing now.
Same here. I spend all my farthings at the taffee shoppe, or the cobblers.
I‘d say about £5 a month would be suitable for lurkers, with additional options for when your "contingent“ is used up
Didn’t that become an option at some point? I’m sure I’ve read there are apps you can pay for to have access. Fuck that, though. Make it a reasonable price, too, and I’d listen. No way I’m paying a fiver a month for reddit. Maye 1 or 2.
Apps can pay in a ridiculous deal that no app would be able to support. So you either be a pay app that no one downloads, or a free app that gets killed the second it gets too big (And that number was low)
Recently I stumbled on Relay, still going strong with a subscription model (because API fees).
That said, I refuse to return to that platform.
You can patch old third-party apps with ReVanced. That being said, they are unmaintained and will still eventually break.
Yeah, but the Apollo dev didn’t have the huge server costs that Reddit has. I’m not defending Reddit at all, but this is just comparing apples to oranges.
So the reason reddit struggled to develop a decent app is… because of server costs?
Seriously. They still don’t have a way to increase the font size on the default app last I checked. How is such a basic feature STILL lacking?
Im a way, yeah. They clearly they made a shitty app to extract as much value from their users as possible. But my point was that Reddit has significantly higher costs than third party app developers (because they host the content), so the business model that works for third party app developers doesn’t work for them.
Looking at a third party app - made by someone who doesn’t have to bear the costs of running the site and can therefore make decent money on an ad-free experience - and a first party one which does have to recoup those expenses doesn’t really work. The financial models are just fundamentally different.
I don’t say that to defend Reddit. They’re clearly a shitty company headed by shitty people, and I’m sure they could’ve found different ways to make money. But yeah, their financial incentives for making an app are fundamentally different than those of other devs.
No one was saying reddit couldn’t implement API costs. In fact, every major 3rd party app developer, including Apollo, supported Reddit charging for API access and made suggestions on how such an arrangement could be made that was fair and reasonable to all parties. Reddit even invited these developers to discussions on the topic. However, Reddit’s CEO said fuck that and wanted to charge an insane amount of money for API usage that no 3rd party developers would be able to reasonably afford without asking for an exorbitant amount of money from their users.
Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/
That was post made by the Apollo dev after their meeting with the Reddit team. With more info here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/
This link is really the one that discussed how willing 3rd party devs were to pay for API access if it was a fair cost. Reddit wasn’t interested in being fair.
Server costs don’t force you to make a bloated and shitty app experience. You might have an argument that 3rd party apps put strain on the servers, but that’s just reddits fault for making an awful and borderline unusable UX.
I think he’s arguing that the organization, being several hundred times bigger, makes it a lot harder to focus on one thing, like making the app awesome.
As an example, in an hour long meeting you’d spend x% of the time on server costs, another y% on, i dunno, legal, another % on how to enshittify, and finally 5 minutes on the app.
Spot fucking on.
Ever have a good app? Something you like using but it’s by a corporation but that’s ok, because it’s a good app and does what you want? And then they start adding more features to it, and it slows down, and it’s more annoying and it keeps offering services you don’t want, and it changes and it morphs and it becomes a shit app.
Hell I’ve watched Whisk become something I liked using to something worthless now it’s Samsung food… Switched to using CopyMeThat which actually also gets me recipes from sites that you can’t just read the recipes from, and that’s ALL it does (well recipe book/shopping cart/meal planning, which is what it’s designed for.)
I’m just sick of “How do we make more money” instead of just being an app that does what it says. Gaming is going down the same hole, sadly.
This is the inevitable long term goal and result of capitalism.
This is the result of shareholders. Capitalism doesn’t have to turn into this and people can have small businesses that are comfortable and don’t grow. But when you get investment involve the question is always “how do you ‘grow this business’ so I can get a ROI”.
There’s a few cases where that’s not the case, but the majority of the mindset of the modern business world is fast returns, rather than sustainable growth.
This is the inevitable long term goal and result of CORRUPTION.
I’m not advocating for capitalism.
Corruption exists in both capitalistic and socialist systems.
Always going to upvote someone talking about CopyMeThat. Been a premium member for over a decade, it was a game changer for us.
I also quit whisk when it became samsung food. Does CopyMeThat let you have shared lists with other people?
It does have a “Community” aspect, but honestly I think it’s quite weak on that. however if you have someone you know and their recipes are public you can see them, but not in any organized sense.
Dang, the shared grocery list and meal planning was the best part of it.
My wife and I just share our account which has worked perfect though I’m really the one who cooks so the recipe list becomes mine as well.
That sounds nice, I’ll try that out
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I get your point and you’re not wrong, technically . Technically that is what Reddit is trying to do but you need to remember that this is Reddit. They fucking suuuuuck at everything.
I remember years ago a disaffected ex employee wrote something about what it’s like to work the and in just remember thinking to myself: “Imagine going in to work and they call an important meeting, all hands, to discuss “brigading” and then, without an ounce of irony they proceed to sternly discuss this important topic.”
Just imagine those little snot nosed shots puffed up with so much self importance discussing how these “brigades” are destroying their “bastion of free speech”.
I thought I was going to pule in my own mouth again just typing this.
We just have to look at how much the CEO and COO paid themselves last year to know the whole thing is just a huge grift.
The comparison is even more apt when you remember that the official Reddit app also used to be the most popular and great 3rd-party app called AlienBlue, which was purchased from 1 guy and rebranded a decade ago.
It’s pretty clear that the reason why the official Reddit app isn’t good is because a good experience for their users isn’t their goal.
The fact that the app is still so bad after so much time has gone by indicates that it is the desired product that the company wants to offer. And after realizing that they were still losing users to better competitors, their solution was to destroy the ability to compete in the first place rather than improve the product.
They like the app as-is, with all of the terrible performance and UX that goes along with it. The reason behind that is because they’re getting user engagement metrics and other telemetry data, more control over ad delivery and the content users see (including astroturfed sponsored Reddit content), and more monetization.
Third party apps, like Apollo and AlienBlue before it, cared about providing a good user experience. It just happens that users typically prefer experiences that aren’t trying to capitalize their every interaction, and companies take that personally.
I’ve started using Geddit, a 3rd party app that doesn’t use the Reddit API. And it’s still better than the app they develop in-house.
I rarely visit Reddit, but when searching for something niche there always seems to be a few threads over there sadly.
Alien Blue wasn’t rebranded. They bought it, called it the official app (with the name Alien Blue) for a little while, then launched their own app and stopped supporting AB.
Oh I see; I knew they stopped supporting it after a while but I thought the official app was a descendent of that codebase
If it was, it might actually be useable
Yeah I paid for alien blue pro or whatever it was called. Then they killed the app and gave me a year of Reddit premium (my memory is shit, idk the proper name). After a month or so I switched to Apollo, Reddit’s app was just so shit. I left when Apollo died and now only use dystopia (an app designed for blind users) for the infrequent times I visit Reddit. No adds. It’s almost read only. But it’s ideal for visiting niche subs that aren’t on lemmy without giving Reddit clicks/seeing ads.
You can also see this with the old website being much better than the new one and apparently there’s an even newer one that people who like the old new one generally hate.
They are in tension with the more pressing goal of extracting revenue. But how do you extract revenue from a site that’s mostly just “user content” + “ads” in an era when ad revenue is plummeting?
Maybe if they increase the prices on Reddit Gold?
They got rid of Reddit Gold and other awards. It’s now “super upvotes” or something to that effect.
Another difference was I was willing to pay for Apollo, whereas I don’t want to spend a dime on Reddit.
2000
Reddit has over 2000 employees.
This is one of those things where, I totally feel for all the big tech employees who’ve been laid off, and it is ultimately the fault of the companies, but like, that’s just too much.
Reddit doesn’t need 150 people at best, and you really don’t need 2,000 programmers let alone 30. They’re all doing ad sales probably.
LOOK AT THE QUALITY OF REDDIT’S ADS AND TELL ME THAT’S A GOOD USE OF 2,000 PEOPLE
And so many unpaid moderators… Which is an acceptable trade when the site isn’t cashing in on your work.
The API was a fair trade. When they killed it and decided to make LLM money, that was it for me. It wouldn’t matter if they paid me for my contributions (which they aren’t, they want redditors to pay for their exit with stock), the API and free access was the social contract. Its gone. Reddit can fuck off at this point.
Wtf are they even doing.
Not moderating that’s for sure
At least until they can automate them
Seriously. Reddit is a glorified link sharing service with comments looking for a 6+ billion valuation. Christian and a couple backend devs could recreate it all in a weekend.
Reddit is hopeful that AI training is their golden ticket but in all reality they’ll only ever have one large buyer. OpenAI, Anthropic, Mistral, etc, don’t want something that Gemini already bought.
With all that out of the way, I don’t see very many companies lining up to license a far left-leaning dataset that had all non-echo chamber discussion banned. I mean, look at how much trouble Google got in with an objectively racist Gemini that forced them to turn off human image generation.
Depends on the sub. The news, technology, and politics subs are 99% link sharing. The subs around DIY stuff, health, etc are often people sharing personal experience and advice. The latter is likely the most valuable thing for AI to crawl.
Maybe this isn’t what you are saying, but Reddit (at least in the past, on smaller more expert subreddits) is no more an echo chamber than any other politically charged community space online, it’s just in other communities the rightwing people who control the levers of power usually don’t let leftists have any kind of voice or power in the first place.
Apollo… the wound that never heals.