Over the last 48 hours, Roku has slowly been rolling out a mandatory update to its terms of service. In this terms it changes the dispute resolution terms but it is not clear exactly why. When the new terms and conditions message shows up on a Roku Player or TV, your only option is to […]
We need legislation put in place that prevents companies from arbitrarily changing EULAs.
Changing a EULA should require the company to refund the price of the product (to be returned at the company’s expense), in addition to refunding customer purchases associated with the services associated with the product.
It should be locked to the EULA you signed/agreed to when you booted it up.
EULAs should just be prohibited entirely. A sale is a sale is a sale: you execute a contract with the retailer to exchange money for a good, and then you own that good no matter what some bullshit adhesion-contract EULA claims when the manufacturer tries to spring it on you after the fact. The manufacturer was never a party to the sale; they don’t get to have a say in its terms!
The argument is they’re selling you a service. So you’d have to ban Eula on services and that’s just not feasible. Instead, limits on what they can and can’t do are needed.
The argument is they’re selling you a service.
So what? Their argument is wrong, end of.
Look, they could update the EULA on the Roku “channel” or even the Roku “channel store” if they want because those actually do rely on them continuing to maintain a server for it. But that’s not the same thing as having an EULA for the entire device as a whole, including its local functions that don’t rely on a connection to Roku servers!
Roku is selling a product that happens to be aggregated with some services. Disabling the whole product in order to coerce people into agreeing to new terms for the aggregated services is basically equivalent to a ransomware attack.
Hey I’m not saying I agree with it, just pointing out how you would have to attack it
Ah, right. Sorry!
But that’s not the same thing as having an EULA for the entire device as a whole, including its local functions that don’t rely on a connection to Roku servers!
The EULA is for the OS, not the physical hardware. So all it takes is them updating the OS for “security reasons” and they can sneak a new EULA into the deal, locking you out of using that OS on new versions if that’s what they want to do. Unless you flash a new OS to your TV you’re stuck using their software and following the rules of that software.
And there’s really no way around that without really hurting legitimate software licensing situations other than maybe making it literally illegal to have devices ship with Auto-Updates enabled, forcing user consent to update anything, which sounds like a great way to piss off the general public.
Hmmm… Maybe legally all devices must be flashable easily without removing or modifying physical bits of the device? That way if an OS Update goes a way you don’t like then you can flash an old version or DIFFERENT OS entirely onto the device you own, regardless of if it’s a TV, phone, microwave, whatever
The EULA is for the OS, not the physical hardware.
That’s pure sophistry*, because…
Unless you flash a new OS to your TV you’re stuck using their software and following the rules of that software.
…they don’t let you do that either!
When the hardware is DRM’d to only allow the use of an OS cryptographically signed by the manufacturer, denying the user use of the OS due to a poison-pill EULA is absolutely equivalent to denying them use of the hardware.
Hmmm… Maybe legally all devices must be flashable easily without removing or modifying physical bits of the device? That way if an OS Update goes a way you don’t like then you can flash an old version or DIFFERENT OS entirely onto the device you own, regardless of if it’s a TV, phone, microwave, whatever
Exactly: the DMCA needs to be repealed and it needs to become illegal to DRM the device to prevent the user from loading a third-party OS on it.
(* on the part of the shysters trying to push that argument, not you explaining their position)
Well… isn’t that what’s happening here? You still own the box to do with as you please. To use Roku’s services you have to agree to the new agreement.
No. They’re disabling the whole thing, including (for example) using it with a local Jellyfin server without connecting outside your LAN at all.
It’s already well established in case law on how companies are allowed to change their EULAs with Douglas v. Talk America being the most directly comparable case to what roku is doing. The problem with case law though is it’s inherently flawed for your avarage consumer as you have to enter a costly legal battle that’s may not even be worth the financial risk and corporations know this.
What we really need is for the regulatory bodies to start enforcing the laws we already have on the books with penalties that are not just a slap on the wrist.
AND the management who created the ToS update should be tarred and feathered on PBS.
Agree. And we need a legislation to show middle finger to such company and be able to change the operating system on those devices.
This shit should be illegal for paid hardware. They should be forced to refund everyone the cost of their device purchase.
Seems like this behavior is perfect for triggering a class action.
They don’t even care. The cost of the class action lawsuit will be less than the profit they make from the changes. People need to go to jail, or be personally fined.
This change seems to be about reducing the risk of a class action lawsuit rather than increasing profits.
If everyone goes to arbitration over it they’ll lose a bunch of money since they have to pay for each arbitration.
Lmao.
Can’t wait for all the ewaste this will fucking generate just to save this companies theoretic ass in a theoretical lawsuit which will likely end in consumers producing a lawsuit anyway on top of the ewaste it’ll create.
I’m sure most users will just agree and there won’t be much ewaste…
Yeah, I just agreed because one sided bullshit being added to something I already own lets me continue to use it until whatever they added even comes up and someone else might sue them in the meantime because ever changing terms of service are not enforceable.
His post is right on par with all the people that swore up and down that the password crackdown of Netflix was going to be their downfall.
Additional ewaste is still additional. Regardless of amount, we’re talking about necessity and rate.
If I got this I’d be returning my tv as soon as possible but I know better and so do my friends and family because I talk about this stuff with them when stories like this come up or they bring it up
Most people, yes will likely just click ok and not think anything of it because they don’t see these spies physically in their windows, but I’m still not happy about the decision and the extra ewaste it will thus, proportionally, cause right now
I read through the whole fucking thing, considered posting it to Lemmy a day or two ago, even considered comparing it to other stream box thingies, and just decided it wasn’t worth it. This fight isn’t going to end because TheFartographer chose to change platforms.
At this point, I know we’re losing and I’m getting really tired of carrying the torch. Ultimately, if I swapped all of our Rokus to anything else, I’d have to deal with my wife being upset that “having a smart house was supposed to be easy, why do you even care about suing Roku?”
Unfortunately, we’re not all as oblivious as you seem to think we are. Some of us have just resigned to failure and are letting the steamroller finally run us over. For some stupid reason, I’m doing it with my eyes wide open.
“There’s no way just I will be able to solve this therefore nobody should try”
Am I right in understanding this logic? Sounds kinda narcissistic and pessimistic imo. Not sure I’d subscribe to giving up because some people will take their frustrations with an industry out on the preverbal ex-cave dweller.
You’ve stepped out into the sunshine, you’ve bore witness to the truth outside of the cave in all it’s maddening glory and now you want to try to convince people who are clearly comfortable being strapped in that cave, stuck staring at mere shadows cast by the sun outside. Maybe try to help get people unchained first and walking around before you try to explain the sun to them
No no no, you misunderstand. I will wholeheartedly support anyone willing to try in any way that I can. I’m tired and I’m just trying to pass the torch.
My point was that some of us have done what we can and are now just painfully yet knowingly accepting shitty terms. I’m not telling anyone else to stop, I’m just asking to acknowledge that some of us need a break without being called willfully ignorant. If you’re still willing to fight, tell me what I can sign, who I can harass, or what I can adopt without pissing off my wife. Until then, I’m just gonna read the contract and then regretfully click “I agree” because I’m too tired to keep doing the research myself.
I don’t mean to offend but we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think googling these things or tapping into mainstream news sources that educate on this stuff (the stuff you spend 50% of your life doing or interacting with) is too much to ask. I do think it’s lazy but I can certainly sympathize with your frustration. You do not have to purchase a smart tv to watch multiple streaming services. There is a plethora of resources out there that you could easily (and even with speech to text) ask for help with and be inundated with advice, strategy, and procedure.
Your mindset is your own and mine is as my own.
Some won’t care about other peoples problems until they are their own. The decision to be proactive in your life in the face of failure and difficulty isn’t something I can preach or force into anyone’s head. That’s something you gotta do on your own.
Your journey isn’t my business, so there is no real judgment here from me, I’m just explaining how I see things from my side of the fence through my stained glass window.
I truly admire your outlook and appreciate your perspective. For a moment there, I almost felt a spark of motivation. I’m gonna bookmark your comment and return to it from time to time and see how my feelings change. Who knows, you might have said just the right thing to get me back to refusing to constantly dine on corporate shit.
It is ridiculous how long TOS agreements are. It is clearly not meant for a lay person to read. It is so much one-sided bullshit that it should be illegal.
This is why all OSs need to be open source and we should only argue over hardware
Or at least bare minimum in form of a documentation allowing other OSes to be develop for the hardware.
Starting with the phones…
I hate to break it to you, but Roku OS uses the Linux kernel and a bunch of other open source stuff. (The UI etc. is proprietary, but never mind that for now.)
The issue here is DRM and Tivoization, not just having access to the source code.
So the closed source OS uses open source stuff?
I hate to break it to you, but that’s still closed source and it’s not possible to replace the OS on these devices.
What I’m saying is that even if it were 100% open source, IT STILL WOULDN’T BE ENOUGH because the hardware would refuse to run anything that wasn’t cryptographically signed by Roku, Inc.
In other words, a big part of the problem is caused by Linus’s failure to adopt GPLv3.
I am constantly elated that I decided years ago to buy a used micro PC on eBay and install Linux on it as my streaming box.
Fuck Roku, fuck Amazon, fuck Google, fuck Samsung, fuck Vizio.
curious about your setup, do you have anything for remote control? do you just run everything through the browser?
Not OP, but a bluetooth mouse is an excellent remote control :-)
Another device and KDE Connect (or at least Valent, an in-development GNOME port of it) works too :D
Yeah, I use an old Dell optiplex micro running Zorin OS Lite, and watch all streaming services in my web browser.
This gives the bonus of blocking ads on sites like YouTube or Roku.
I use a Logitech wireless media keyboard with trackpad to control it. All hooked up to a dumb projector.
Fun fact, my parents have an Amazon Fire TV, and Amazon pushed an update 2 months ago that made it always turn on to an ad page, and slowed down all the interactions to the point of being almost unbearable.
Second fun fact: Vizio now makes more money selling access to advertisers than they make from selling tvs.
The equivalent today is a small n100 box. Similar size to a Nvidia shield.
This just ensures that I will never get a Roku. Thanks for making that decision for me, Roku!
Now if only Sony could make an OLED 4K dumb TV about 78″ or larger. Yes, I know the alternative is called “Digital Signage”, but almost all of DS is still just standard LCD and entry-level visual tech.
For anyone who gets this abhorrent soft brick on their Roku TV, MAC address filter your TV on your router (prevents it from accessing the internet and phoning home). Hard restart your TV (unplug and replug since they lock you out of restarting via GUI), and Bob’s your uncle (dumb TV with no forced agreement for continued “dumb” use).
Unclear how long this will last, but as long as you keep your TV off the internet you should be good to go.
ditch all this proprietary shit and start your path to freedom
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allowing companies to update software was a mistake
This is not surprising. Roku enabled smart TVs do not function if they cannot communicate with Roku servers. Can’t even watch TV or use a console.
Is that new? I have a Roku enabled tv i just use as a computer screen. Am i talking about something different?
