If a Democrat tries to do something left-wing, and it doesn’t work within the system, and they have to pare it back to something more establishment-friendly […]
Buddy, I mean this in the nicest way, but this is exactly the point
I’m gonna start categorizing the weird bad faith responses I get. I call this one the “Mission Accomplished”: Where you simply announce proudly that the other person has just unwittingly proven your argument without you even needing to make any kind of statement at all, and just start running victory laps for yourself, hands held proudly in the air.
Aha! A concrete statement. This one, I can respond to.
“Liberal reform is not enough. It’s a positive thing for the world if good things happen obviously, but by no means enough. Continuing to work for genuine reform is necessary if any survivable society is going to continue on earth beyond this generation. On the other hand, letting Trump end the world prematurely is obviously also something we should avoid if we want to be in a position to do any of those things.”
Fixed it for you. I would love a landscape where Biden is the weird right-wing outlier because we have left-wing candidates in the ring. How do we get there?
Or, are you suggesting doing away with voting and political parties entirely and just living in a libertarian utopia where clearly the people with all the money and corporate power won’t instantly take over even more so than they already have? You tell me.
You asked for examples of direct action earlier - this is it bud.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action against threats to ‘any survivable society’ is the bare-minimum action you could possibly take. Voting is the one tool that is given to you by a liberal democratic system to voice support or opposition, and if you’re unwilling to use that tool to pursue necessary action, then i’m really not sure there are any actions you would find more agreeable to your strikingly liberal disposition.
A worker’s union exercises power by threat of a worker’s strike, a leftist coalition exercises power -in part- by threat of withholding support. You wouldn’t blame a worker’s union of being in favor of layoffs for going on strike to win concessions, at least not unless you’re a boot-licking capitalist.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action
I think this is where the whole thing breaks down for me. This just seems like a childish point of view.
Yes, the system is rigged. The rich people are in control and steering the bus towards the cliff. I agree completely with putting someone in charge who will actually apply the brakes. I just don’t see how, if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
Voting for someone isn’t like a tribute you give to a ruler. It’s exercising control over what is going to happen. And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required (whether in primaries, direct action, organizing better candidates for future elections, etc).
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
I am getting involved. I’m appealing to the guy -and the party- at the wheel to fucking steer it the other way.
It’s exercising control over what is going to happen
Yup
And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required
It’s not that Biden ‘isn’t 100% of what we need to see’, it’s that he’s 100% in support of the things we really need to change. And if me withholding my vote is of enough concern that it’s tantamount to enabling a fascist dictator to take control, then maybe the democrats should consider taking some meaningful action.
But frankly, that it’s been almost 5 months since Israel started their genocide and they are still cow-toeing around publicly criticizing it -let alone continuing to actively aid it- tells me that they must not actually need the support anyway.
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
LMFAO ok this has to be a bit, there’s no way this is genuine
It’s not that Biden ‘isn’t 100% of what we need to see’, it’s that he’s 100% in support of the things we really need to change. And if me withholding my vote is of enough concern that it’s tantamount to enabling a fascist dictator to take control, then maybe the democrats should consider taking some meaningful action.
Like this? That’s why I say that Biden has done good things, just not enough. A lot of people are talking like he’s part of the problem, but to me that’s clearly not factually accurate.
What are the things that really need to change? That’s not like a gotcha, I’m genuinely curious how you see it.
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
LMFAO ok this has to be a bit, there’s no way this is genuine
That’s exactly what you’re doing.
That’s why I say it’s childish – there is no “they” who determines once and for all who’s allowed to be a candidate. The Democratic establishment hated Bernie Sanders, and he still made it quite a distance. Who is the Bernie Sanders of today that I should be voting for in the primary soon, to make a better candidate? Or you just want one to drop from the sky and for the DNC to suddenly drop their corporate-cash addiction and get behind him, because archomrade is refusing to vote?
For a start, stop actively funding a genocide. As an added bonus, maybe stop tailoring economic policy around metrics that don’t serve working-class interests. Biden has been touting the strength of the economy for the last 3 years, but the metrics he’s pointing to don’t paint an accurate picture of actual working-class conditions. We have record high homelessness, food insecurity, and high-interest debt, record low average savings and a social security insolvency problem. How am I supposed to feel good about Biden’s economic accomplishments? Fucking do something! Pursue anti-trust action, enact stronger worker protections, propose universal childcare, stop supporting fossil fuels, pass a minimum wage increase. There are so many options.
Democratic reform is moving slower than the collapse of the middle class. Who gives a fuck if insulin is capped for seniors when my children will never be able to afford a house or have a livable climate? The country is falling apart and i’m supposed to be happy about high speed internet infrastructure funding?
That’s exactly what you’re doing.
Nah, maybe that’s how you’d like to see it though, since it’s so stupid you can just dismiss it as childish. I’m very loudly advocating for more progressive policy, not just from Biden but from the whole democratic party. You’re just upset that it’s threatening the stability of your political coalition.
Buddy, I mean this in the nicest way, but this is exactly the point
I’m gonna start categorizing the weird bad faith responses I get. I call this one the “Mission Accomplished”: Where you simply announce proudly that the other person has just unwittingly proven your argument without you even needing to make any kind of statement at all, and just start running victory laps for yourself, hands held proudly in the air.
“Liberal reform is ineffectual from a leftist perspective because it stops short of changing the system that is being opposed”
Is it weird because you don’t understand it? Or because it’s uncomfortable?
Aha! A concrete statement. This one, I can respond to.
“Liberal reform is not enough. It’s a positive thing for the world if good things happen obviously, but by no means enough. Continuing to work for genuine reform is necessary if any survivable society is going to continue on earth beyond this generation. On the other hand, letting Trump end the world prematurely is obviously also something we should avoid if we want to be in a position to do any of those things.”
Fixed it for you. I would love a landscape where Biden is the weird right-wing outlier because we have left-wing candidates in the ring. How do we get there?
Or, are you suggesting doing away with voting and political parties entirely and just living in a libertarian utopia where clearly the people with all the money and corporate power won’t instantly take over even more so than they already have? You tell me.
You asked for examples of direct action earlier - this is it bud.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action against threats to ‘any survivable society’ is the bare-minimum action you could possibly take. Voting is the one tool that is given to you by a liberal democratic system to voice support or opposition, and if you’re unwilling to use that tool to pursue necessary action, then i’m really not sure there are any actions you would find more agreeable to your strikingly liberal disposition.
A worker’s union exercises power by threat of a worker’s strike, a leftist coalition exercises power -in part- by threat of withholding support. You wouldn’t blame a worker’s union of being in favor of layoffs for going on strike to win concessions, at least not unless you’re a boot-licking capitalist.
I think this is where the whole thing breaks down for me. This just seems like a childish point of view.
Yes, the system is rigged. The rich people are in control and steering the bus towards the cliff. I agree completely with putting someone in charge who will actually apply the brakes. I just don’t see how, if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
Voting for someone isn’t like a tribute you give to a ruler. It’s exercising control over what is going to happen. And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required (whether in primaries, direct action, organizing better candidates for future elections, etc).
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
I am getting involved. I’m appealing to the guy -and the party- at the wheel to fucking steer it the other way.
Yup
It’s not that Biden ‘isn’t 100% of what we need to see’, it’s that he’s 100% in support of the things we really need to change. And if me withholding my vote is of enough concern that it’s tantamount to enabling a fascist dictator to take control, then maybe the democrats should consider taking some meaningful action.
But frankly, that it’s been almost 5 months since Israel started their genocide and they are still cow-toeing around publicly criticizing it -let alone continuing to actively aid it- tells me that they must not actually need the support anyway.
LMFAO ok this has to be a bit, there’s no way this is genuine
Like this? That’s why I say that Biden has done good things, just not enough. A lot of people are talking like he’s part of the problem, but to me that’s clearly not factually accurate.
What are the things that really need to change? That’s not like a gotcha, I’m genuinely curious how you see it.
That’s exactly what you’re doing.
That’s why I say it’s childish – there is no “they” who determines once and for all who’s allowed to be a candidate. The Democratic establishment hated Bernie Sanders, and he still made it quite a distance. Who is the Bernie Sanders of today that I should be voting for in the primary soon, to make a better candidate? Or you just want one to drop from the sky and for the DNC to suddenly drop their corporate-cash addiction and get behind him, because archomrade is refusing to vote?
For a start, stop actively funding a genocide. As an added bonus, maybe stop tailoring economic policy around metrics that don’t serve working-class interests. Biden has been touting the strength of the economy for the last 3 years, but the metrics he’s pointing to don’t paint an accurate picture of actual working-class conditions. We have record high homelessness, food insecurity, and high-interest debt, record low average savings and a social security insolvency problem. How am I supposed to feel good about Biden’s economic accomplishments? Fucking do something! Pursue anti-trust action, enact stronger worker protections, propose universal childcare, stop supporting fossil fuels, pass a minimum wage increase. There are so many options.
Democratic reform is moving slower than the collapse of the middle class. Who gives a fuck if insulin is capped for seniors when my children will never be able to afford a house or have a livable climate? The country is falling apart and i’m supposed to be happy about high speed internet infrastructure funding?
Nah, maybe that’s how you’d like to see it though, since it’s so stupid you can just dismiss it as childish. I’m very loudly advocating for more progressive policy, not just from Biden but from the whole democratic party. You’re just upset that it’s threatening the stability of your political coalition.