I didn’t like the false equivalency that was oozing from this episode.
“It actually makes him more subject to scrutiny,” Stewart said.
This is why liberals lose. Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line. Democrats take a tiny issue and use it as an excuse to not vote. Republicans vote to a fault.
Come Election Day, Stewart said, “If your guy loses, bad things might happen, but the country is not over. And if your guy wins, the country is in no way saved.”
When a fuckhead who tried to incite an insurrection, fan the flames to murder the VP, steal boxes and boxes of classified documents, leak classified information that got CIA agents killed, along with the 150 other high crimes, is still trying to run for president, it isn’t a matter of whether “your guy” loses.
This is a question of whether democracy dies in America.
If Jon has lost sight of that, he doesn’t deserve an audience.
I appreciate that you haven’t lost the context in which this election is taking place in which one of the candidates tried to overthrow the government. But I think slighting Stewart for not being more alarmist is misunderstanding him. He was never another MSNBC talking head that screams about how the world is coming to and end because of something that the right did. He was always a grounded voice of reason that would give insight into specific issues.
If he starts screaming about how Trump is the devil and going to destroy everything, whether that is right or wrong, it would be completely not his stylenand also be ineffective. He takes people down by criticizing people by using their own words taken in good faith to show them not acting in good faith.
This is a question of whether democracy dies in America.
If the people in charge have the ability to end democracy, how can democracy be claimed to exist in the first place? Democracy is supposed to be our capability as individual citizens to regulate the people in power, but if they can turn that switch on or off, we don’t actually have that capability except as they choose to allow us to.
The power of democracy is vested with the citizenry. It is up to us whether it lives or dies. Only we, through inaction, can determine if any given leader is allowed to take or remain in office. Currently we have a duopoly that plays at being enemies, casting back and forth between the dictator and the ‘stalwart defender of democracy’ (whose selection by the DNC must always be respected one more time, lest the dictator take hold again).
Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.
Useless and false platitude.
Republicans literally have been splitting in half ever since Trump lost in 2020. They ousted their own Speaker, and are now trying to oust McConnell via public opinion. They had 2 primary candidates (DeSantis and Haley) who actually got national attention, and a decent-ish number of votes. What part of that is “in line”?
If the bar for “in-line” is the party forcefully backing one candidate, the DNC is far more aligned behind Biden.
If you look in conservative political spaces, they literally say the same thing about Democrats being the ones who “fall in line”. In both cases, it’s just a means to quash democratic discussion of candidates.
My opposition to Biden is not about “falling in love” with someone else, it’s about my belief that Biden is going to lose us the election and put Trump back in office. Perhaps you shouldn’t be dismissive and condescending towards other people’s choices when you know nothing about them? Perhaps they’re actually trying to save the US from Trump as well?
Or you can just write them off as being silly people who “lose” for “falling in love”.
Indeed; you can’t win people over by punching down at them, which establishment Dems and their supporters have done for the past several election cycles. They never seem to learn.
Are you asking me to respect Republicans for voting for a treasonous, backstabbing criminal that tried to usurp the 2020 election by inciting a insurrection? No, sorry, I’m not going to respect them and I will never respect their decision. They can go fuck themselves.
I don’t want to “win over” those people, just as much as I don’t want to “win over” Nazis during WWII. They are evil, brainwashed, and beyond saving. The best we can hope for is to outvote them and wait for them to see reason themselves. If they have the foresight to actually remove their blinders and understand the GOP for what it actually is, which is a cult, then I can respect their decision making again.
If the people in charge have the ability to end democracy, how can democracy be claimed to exist in the first place? Democracy is supposed to be our capability as individual citizens to regulate the people in power, but if they can turn that switch on or off, we don’t actually have that capability except as they choose to allow us to.
It’s never a binary on/off switch. Democracy dies through slow corrosion. If we let Trump off with all of those crimes he committed, and allow him to get re-elected, all of those crimes are now unenforceable.
Well, unenforceable for the rich and powerful. The poor has a different system of justice.
Republicans literally have been splitting in half ever since Trump lost in 2020. They ousted their own Speaker, and are now trying to oust McConnell via public opinion. They had 2 primary candidates (DeSantis and Haley) who actually got national attention, and a decent-ish number of votes. What part of that is “in line”?
DeSantis, Haley, and all of the Speaker nonsense has been infighting with old-guard rich assholes who want to break government more subtlety than how Trump and the rest of the Tea Party idiots do things. The GOP has been trying to steer out of this Trump trainwreck ever since it’s started, and they don’t have the control over their own populace than they used to. But, that’s not a good thing because everything that the GOP represents has been going even further extremist.
But, do you know what happens when these candidates drop out? They immediately fall in line. They kiss Trump’s ass so hard that no callous insult he made at him is unforgivable. Hell, Trump accused Ted Cruz’s father of helping in the JFK assassination, and Ted was like, “Yeah, we should totally vote for this guy!”
It’s never a binary on/off switch. Democracy dies through slow corrosion.
There are a lot of ways to define what qualifies as Democracy: is it the mere presence of voting? Is it the impact of that voting? Is it equal/ universal voting rights? Is it the ability to enforce voting outcomes? Or the ability for voters to choose what is voted on?
Some of those are clear binaries, and some of those are gradations or thresholds.
Personally, I think it has to be a combination of universal voting rights, voter-led ballot control(i.e. choosing what to vote about), and enforceability.
To me, we’ve been failing as a democracy for a long time.
If we let Trump off with all of those crimes he committed, and allow him to get re-elected, all of those crimes are now unenforceable.
The unenforceability of those laws is not determined by his reelection, they’re determined by the actual court cases charging him with crimes. We do not have the ability to force SCOTUS to allow him to be held accountable, and comforting ourselves that we actually can, merely by not re-electing him, means you already realize the laws are not going to be enforced against him in the “Justice” System.
But, do you know what happens when these candidates drop out? They immediately fall in line.
Which is exactly what every Democrat challenger does as well.
No, if someone is claiming that democracy is being killed, it’s very important to define what that actually means. If Democracy is the simple act of some any given sub-group being allowed to vote, it’s never going to ‘die’ in the US. If on the other hand it’s the actual ability for individuals to overrule those in power via voting, then it’s arguably already dead. Definitions are important.
When I say “Trump is eroding our democracy,” most people - including you - understand what I’m driving at.
I agree with Stewart on that point:
Come Election Day, Stewart said, “If your guy loses, bad things might happen, but the country is not over. And if your guy wins, the country is in no way saved.”
Trump is not going to end voting if he gets reelected, and voter suppression and disenfranchisement by Republicans existed long before Trump and will continue long after Trump. There is nothing that Trump is going to fundamentally change about our government.
It will be very bad if he gets elected, but the country is not over, and using hyperbolic language that implies otherwise, like “This is a question of whether democracy dies in America.” (which is what the commenter I initially responded to said), is just being used to deflect from very important and valid criticism of the alternatives. More importantly, it runs the danger of creating voter fatigue; not every election can be an exceptional, emergency situation, and all of Trump’s runner-ups like DeSantis and Ramaswamy, are all running the same playbook.
If the only way for America and/or Democracy not to die is for Republicans to never again become president, it’s already lost, because we’re in a duopoly with them (which the DNC is actively working to maintain), and it is an eventuality.
Thank you for taking the time to write out such a well reasoned rebuttal. I’m always on mobile and simply don’t have the stamina, but I appreciate all the points you’ve laid out.
I am always sad when I see the left wing criticisms of the “both sides” argument on Lemmy. Like, I don’t necessarily disagree, but I find the whole premise of one side vs another as some of the worst tendencies in democracy at work. I refuse to equate left vs. right == democracy. It’s bigger than that.
And speaking of democracy, I think it’s really important that everyone be unbiased around what constitutes a threat to democracy. Yes, J6 was objectively bad, and I don’t trust Trump to put his big boy pants on in round two. But I’m also alarmed at the lengths to which this legitimate fear is used as a justification for antidemocratic strategy from the DNC.
No matter their political ideology, when people start letting fear inform every decision - and justify their worse impulses - I get reeaaaalll nervous, as should we all.
I didn’t like the false equivalency that was oozing from this episode.
This is why liberals lose. Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line. Democrats take a tiny issue and use it as an excuse to not vote. Republicans vote to a fault.
When a fuckhead who tried to incite an insurrection, fan the flames to murder the VP, steal boxes and boxes of classified documents, leak classified information that got CIA agents killed, along with the 150 other high crimes, is still trying to run for president, it isn’t a matter of whether “your guy” loses.
This is a question of whether democracy dies in America.
If Jon has lost sight of that, he doesn’t deserve an audience.
I appreciate that you haven’t lost the context in which this election is taking place in which one of the candidates tried to overthrow the government. But I think slighting Stewart for not being more alarmist is misunderstanding him. He was never another MSNBC talking head that screams about how the world is coming to and end because of something that the right did. He was always a grounded voice of reason that would give insight into specific issues.
If he starts screaming about how Trump is the devil and going to destroy everything, whether that is right or wrong, it would be completely not his stylenand also be ineffective. He takes people down by criticizing people by using their own words taken in good faith to show them not acting in good faith.
Honestly, Jon should start taking lessons from Seth Meyers. His “A Closer Look” series have been killing it for the past few years.
It’s not about screaming about how Trump is the devil. It’s about making him look like an absolute, total idiot who can’t even tie his own shoes.
If the people in charge have the ability to end democracy, how can democracy be claimed to exist in the first place? Democracy is supposed to be our capability as individual citizens to regulate the people in power, but if they can turn that switch on or off, we don’t actually have that capability except as they choose to allow us to.
The power of democracy is vested with the citizenry. It is up to us whether it lives or dies. Only we, through inaction, can determine if any given leader is allowed to take or remain in office. Currently we have a duopoly that plays at being enemies, casting back and forth between the dictator and the ‘stalwart defender of democracy’ (whose selection by the DNC must always be respected one more time, lest the dictator take hold again).
Useless and false platitude.
Republicans literally have been splitting in half ever since Trump lost in 2020. They ousted their own Speaker, and are now trying to oust McConnell via public opinion. They had 2 primary candidates (DeSantis and Haley) who actually got national attention, and a decent-ish number of votes. What part of that is “in line”?
If the bar for “in-line” is the party forcefully backing one candidate, the DNC is far more aligned behind Biden.
If you look in conservative political spaces, they literally say the same thing about Democrats being the ones who “fall in line”. In both cases, it’s just a means to quash democratic discussion of candidates.
My opposition to Biden is not about “falling in love” with someone else, it’s about my belief that Biden is going to lose us the election and put Trump back in office. Perhaps you shouldn’t be dismissive and condescending towards other people’s choices when you know nothing about them? Perhaps they’re actually trying to save the US from Trump as well?
Or you can just write them off as being silly people who “lose” for “falling in love”.
deleted by creator
Are you asking me to respect Republicans for voting for a treasonous, backstabbing criminal that tried to usurp the 2020 election by inciting a insurrection? No, sorry, I’m not going to respect them and I will never respect their decision. They can go fuck themselves.
I don’t want to “win over” those people, just as much as I don’t want to “win over” Nazis during WWII. They are evil, brainwashed, and beyond saving. The best we can hope for is to outvote them and wait for them to see reason themselves. If they have the foresight to actually remove their blinders and understand the GOP for what it actually is, which is a cult, then I can respect their decision making again.
deleted by creator
It’s never a binary on/off switch. Democracy dies through slow corrosion. If we let Trump off with all of those crimes he committed, and allow him to get re-elected, all of those crimes are now unenforceable.
Well, unenforceable for the rich and powerful. The poor has a different system of justice.
DeSantis, Haley, and all of the Speaker nonsense has been infighting with old-guard rich assholes who want to break government more subtlety than how Trump and the rest of the Tea Party idiots do things. The GOP has been trying to steer out of this Trump trainwreck ever since it’s started, and they don’t have the control over their own populace than they used to. But, that’s not a good thing because everything that the GOP represents has been going even further extremist.
But, do you know what happens when these candidates drop out? They immediately fall in line. They kiss Trump’s ass so hard that no callous insult he made at him is unforgivable. Hell, Trump accused Ted Cruz’s father of helping in the JFK assassination, and Ted was like, “Yeah, we should totally vote for this guy!”
There are a lot of ways to define what qualifies as Democracy: is it the mere presence of voting? Is it the impact of that voting? Is it equal/ universal voting rights? Is it the ability to enforce voting outcomes? Or the ability for voters to choose what is voted on?
Some of those are clear binaries, and some of those are gradations or thresholds.
Personally, I think it has to be a combination of universal voting rights, voter-led ballot control(i.e. choosing what to vote about), and enforceability.
To me, we’ve been failing as a democracy for a long time.
The unenforceability of those laws is not determined by his reelection, they’re determined by the actual court cases charging him with crimes. We do not have the ability to force SCOTUS to allow him to be held accountable, and comforting ourselves that we actually can, merely by not re-electing him, means you already realize the laws are not going to be enforced against him in the “Justice” System.
Which is exactly what every Democrat challenger does as well.
deleted by creator
No, if someone is claiming that democracy is being killed, it’s very important to define what that actually means. If Democracy is the simple act of some any given sub-group being allowed to vote, it’s never going to ‘die’ in the US. If on the other hand it’s the actual ability for individuals to overrule those in power via voting, then it’s arguably already dead. Definitions are important.
deleted by creator
I agree with Stewart on that point:
Trump is not going to end voting if he gets reelected, and voter suppression and disenfranchisement by Republicans existed long before Trump and will continue long after Trump. There is nothing that Trump is going to fundamentally change about our government.
It will be very bad if he gets elected, but the country is not over, and using hyperbolic language that implies otherwise, like “This is a question of whether democracy dies in America.” (which is what the commenter I initially responded to said), is just being used to deflect from very important and valid criticism of the alternatives. More importantly, it runs the danger of creating voter fatigue; not every election can be an exceptional, emergency situation, and all of Trump’s runner-ups like DeSantis and Ramaswamy, are all running the same playbook.
If the only way for America and/or Democracy not to die is for Republicans to never again become president, it’s already lost, because we’re in a duopoly with them (which the DNC is actively working to maintain), and it is an eventuality.
deleted by creator
Thank you for taking the time to write out such a well reasoned rebuttal. I’m always on mobile and simply don’t have the stamina, but I appreciate all the points you’ve laid out.
I am always sad when I see the left wing criticisms of the “both sides” argument on Lemmy. Like, I don’t necessarily disagree, but I find the whole premise of one side vs another as some of the worst tendencies in democracy at work. I refuse to equate left vs. right == democracy. It’s bigger than that.
And speaking of democracy, I think it’s really important that everyone be unbiased around what constitutes a threat to democracy. Yes, J6 was objectively bad, and I don’t trust Trump to put his big boy pants on in round two. But I’m also alarmed at the lengths to which this legitimate fear is used as a justification for antidemocratic strategy from the DNC.
No matter their political ideology, when people start letting fear inform every decision - and justify their worse impulses - I get reeaaaalll nervous, as should we all.