After an extended period of gloom, Americans are starting to feel better about inflation and the economy — a trend that could sustain consumer spending, fuel economic growth and potentially a…
If genocide isn’t your red line you are not a good person. Had this happened under Trump, liberals would be demanding action instead of demanding a vote for the condoner of those deaths.
They would continue on this genocidal path with their own weapons they already have and ones they already produce locally. This is a holy war, with Netanyahu’s goal being to cling to power. He’s already stated that he doesn’t intend to stop; peace isn’t an option, and I’m inclined to believe him.
So, Biden simply doesn’t have the power or leverage to stop him, even if we leveled sanctions at them (which would never happen, because they’re still a geopolitical ally). I agree with the general premise that we shouldn’t give them more weapons, but it’s disingenuous and reductive to talk and act like Biden is somehow directly responsible for the war crimes.
You’re over estimating the arms manufacturing capacity of Israel. Belgium has an arms industry too, but they’re not capable of suppling themselves in a prolonged conflict. Israel is in the same boat.
Regardless, we can agree to disagree that using US arms as leverage would work. Maybe leveraging US arms would induce change, maybe not. But why not at least try?
We both agree that shoveling more arms into the status quo should stop. So why not at least try to induce some change? Even if it doesn’t work, where’s the harm?
The fact that Biden won’t do that, or at least stop the sale of arms, is a major issue. Is he responsible for Israel? No. Is he complicit? Yes.
Biden when people protest at his events: Maybe possibly sometime in the future I should look into this potentially maybe.
Trump when people protest at his events: sends in unmarked police officers with military equipment and federal backing to arrest anyone they want for no reason in the city the protesters might be from.
I like having a President that allows me my Constitutional Freedoms while protesting for change so I can continue bringing the topic up until something happens.
There are degree’s of response to genocide. If you think you Trump will have a harsher response towards Israel’s genocide than Biden, then you should definitely vote for Trump or not vote for Biden.
But make no mistake: not voting for Biden isn’t a condemnation of Biden’s response to the genocide, it’s an endorsement of how you think Trump will respond.
Trump would do the same. There is no choice in the presidential election you can make that will prevent genocide. Biden supports Israel. Trump supports Israel. Not voting means one will get in. Voting third party won’t do anything until we can get RCV, approval, or STAR voting to happen.
No, Trump will be far worse. If any of these people actually care about doing something that has any possibility whatsoever of preserving Palestinian lives, they would shut the fuck up and vote for Biden. Then they can spend four years grooming the next progressive candidates that they want to run and support them in the primary.
They want to sit out so they can tell everyone they’re better than them because they didn’t vote for the guy who’s not stopping genocide, when the reality is that their inaction could very well lead to another Trump presidency. Then we go from not stopping genocide, to becoming an active participant.
That’s why I think these people (well, the ones who are genuine, not all the astroturfers here that are concern trolling to get people to question their support for Biden) don’t actually care about Palestinian lives and are doing this more out of a personal desire to avoid guilt.
One voice turns into a dozen voices which turns into two dozen voices which turns into thousands and millions of voices. This is what ended the Vietnam war
Yeah that’s what these people want. They are concern trolling in order to get other people to second guess their support for Biden. They could not care less about Palestinian lives. If they did, they wouldn’t be doing everything in their power to get Trump elected.
If genocide isn’t your red line you are not a good person. Had this happened under Trump, liberals would be demanding action instead of demanding a vote for the condoner of those deaths.
i don’t know if you know this, but Biden isn’t president of israel or gaza
How many dollars of military sales to Israel has Biden approved?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel
You’re delusional if you think the US doesn’t have any influence on the behavior of Israel.
Do you suppose Israel would stop if we stopped giving them money?
Israel relies on American arms. That gives the US a lot of leverage to influence Israeli policy.
Do you think Netanyahu would stop if their American arms supply dried up tomorrow?
You tell me.
How do you think Israel would respond if American arms were contingent on deescalation? Or at least a change in status quo.
They would continue on this genocidal path with their own weapons they already have and ones they already produce locally. This is a holy war, with Netanyahu’s goal being to cling to power. He’s already stated that he doesn’t intend to stop; peace isn’t an option, and I’m inclined to believe him.
So, Biden simply doesn’t have the power or leverage to stop him, even if we leveled sanctions at them (which would never happen, because they’re still a geopolitical ally). I agree with the general premise that we shouldn’t give them more weapons, but it’s disingenuous and reductive to talk and act like Biden is somehow directly responsible for the war crimes.
You’re over estimating the arms manufacturing capacity of Israel. Belgium has an arms industry too, but they’re not capable of suppling themselves in a prolonged conflict. Israel is in the same boat.
Regardless, we can agree to disagree that using US arms as leverage would work. Maybe leveraging US arms would induce change, maybe not. But why not at least try?
We both agree that shoveling more arms into the status quo should stop. So why not at least try to induce some change? Even if it doesn’t work, where’s the harm?
The fact that Biden won’t do that, or at least stop the sale of arms, is a major issue. Is he responsible for Israel? No. Is he complicit? Yes.
Bypassed Congress twice
But Biden controls the purse strings of the money going to Israel and the weapons being given to them to commit genocide
No he actually doesn’t. That’s not how your country works. Congress controls the purse strings.
The president controls the foreign military financing program
Biden when people protest at his events: Maybe possibly sometime in the future I should look into this potentially maybe. Trump when people protest at his events: sends in unmarked police officers with military equipment and federal backing to arrest anyone they want for no reason in the city the protesters might be from.
I like having a President that allows me my Constitutional Freedoms while protesting for change so I can continue bringing the topic up until something happens.
You must be talking about protesters protesting Genocide then getting arrested for exercising those constitutional rights?
There are degree’s of response to genocide. If you think you Trump will have a harsher response towards Israel’s genocide than Biden, then you should definitely vote for Trump or not vote for Biden.
But make no mistake: not voting for Biden isn’t a condemnation of Biden’s response to the genocide, it’s an endorsement of how you think Trump will respond.
I dont give a fuck what Trump might do, he’s not the one allowing it to happen right now.
Are you gonna give a fuck what Trump might do in 12 months?
When it comes to that I will be just as critical of Trump as I am Biden. Neither party gives a fuck about their constituents.
You’re so full of shit. Concern troll
Trump would do the same. There is no choice in the presidential election you can make that will prevent genocide. Biden supports Israel. Trump supports Israel. Not voting means one will get in. Voting third party won’t do anything until we can get RCV, approval, or STAR voting to happen.
No, Trump will be far worse. If any of these people actually care about doing something that has any possibility whatsoever of preserving Palestinian lives, they would shut the fuck up and vote for Biden. Then they can spend four years grooming the next progressive candidates that they want to run and support them in the primary.
They want to sit out so they can tell everyone they’re better than them because they didn’t vote for the guy who’s not stopping genocide, when the reality is that their inaction could very well lead to another Trump presidency. Then we go from not stopping genocide, to becoming an active participant.
That’s why I think these people (well, the ones who are genuine, not all the astroturfers here that are concern trolling to get people to question their support for Biden) don’t actually care about Palestinian lives and are doing this more out of a personal desire to avoid guilt.
The United States has been committing genocides since before there was a United States. If you want something different you’re gonna have to move.
So just accept it because that’s what theyve always done?
I’m just saying: If you think a dozen people shouting at a president at a speech is gonna stop 250 years of history you’re ambitious.
One voice turns into a dozen voices which turns into two dozen voices which turns into thousands and millions of voices. This is what ended the Vietnam war
When Americans start fighting and dying in Gaza you may have a point
Our money and weapons made here, including illegal white phosphorus, is killing people. Biden needs to be pressured to stop.
Never in the forty plus years I have been alive, not all the history I have read, makes me believe most Americans care about that.
I’m on your side. The rest of the country isn’t.
Exactly, you’re right; this is exactly why we need to do everything we can to make sure Trump doesn’t win. Really good point.
Right now, that means voting for Joe Biden.
You vote for genocide, I’ll keep my conscience clear.
Guess we know how you’d justify the trolley problem lmao
And the option this fall, as a voter, is…what? Let little d win?
Yeah that’s what these people want. They are concern trolling in order to get other people to second guess their support for Biden. They could not care less about Palestinian lives. If they did, they wouldn’t be doing everything in their power to get Trump elected.
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So do you have any constructive paths forward?