If we are being pedantic about the origin of passages, which has some value, I note that John 8:7 did not appear in the earliest written (Greek) manuscripts - that does not mean that it is false, but in any case it should awaken us to take extra care and precaution in interpreting anything that we see, even from the Bible. For instance, one thing that it does NOT mean (probably?) is that all law & order in any (Christian) society is forbidden. You can judge someone for being a murderer, or a rapist, or thief, etc. - there IS a need “for US to add to it”, in that if we do not, then our faith in the Bible is false (James 2:17-20), and it is only by working that out, with fear & trembling (Philippians 2:12), that the faith that we claim to have is shown to be real (Luke 18:10-14).
Note I am not advocating for anarchy - people train for many years to catch suspected criminals, prosecute and defend them, and yes to actually judge them, then carry out a sentence. In the case of a court of law, the proper person to render judgement is a “judge”, possibly with the aid of a jury, whereas in the case of a politician, the proper person to render the judgement is the voter… and maybe voters should likewise train for at least months if not multiple years in order to be prepared? There are minimum standards to operate a motor vehicle, b/c it is quite a dangerous tool if mishandled, and various restrictions (e.g. vision, or if someone misbehaves and loses their license), but for whatever reason there are almost no standards whatsoever to be able to vote. And yet operating an entire nation is even more complex, and mishandling that can have even more drastic consequences than e.g. a drunk or otherwise distracted driver.
Likewise, what are the standards to become a preacher? For an established religious denomination there can be an extensive process of oversight, but for the many non-denominational churches that process is often short-circuited, sometimes eliminated altogether but even when present, are often much less. I have an atheist friend who decided to register himself as a preacher, so that he could sign someone’s marriage certificate. It takes much less effort than I think most people relaize:-P.
Since WWI-II days, the Western world it seems has gotten used to government oversight. We don’t chemically test our own food each & every time we purchase and consume it - as unregulated industries such as drug cartels do - b/c we trust that the bad cases will be filtered out. But this is not done for religions, unless they cross a very firm line. And spreading misinformation, e.g. about a deadly virus, has so far not been considered something to be regulated. At which point it is on each of us individually to have to do our own due diligence, as was already true for picking an appropriate pastor & church community to listen to.
But no, I don’t think expecting politicians to solve problems is at all like grapes. Police, firefighters, schools, roads, bridges, and the like are all examples of something that if you had to do all of that individually yourself, would be an enormous burden. Heck, Trump created a vaccine for COVID - that is not something that any average American is capable of doing, even those with multiple PhDs and MDs to boot. It is an enormous task that we we pay enormously large groups of such people to be able to perform, using also enormous resources (someone has to grow the rabbits used for testing, if those are used, and someone has to grow the feed used to keep them alive, and so on and so forth). Politicians serve a function - if they did not then we could simply get rid of them, but it is not so simple as that. And btw even if we could, and barely notice a difference in our daily lives, there are still outside forces to consider - e.g. if Putin decides to take over America, the entirety of the Russian army (& navy, and air forces, and more) is not something that each individual person is capable of fighting off, one-by-one. We NEED government, no matter how many people (e.g. Reagan) crack jokes about otherwise. Otherwise we will become slaves. And while being a slave is not sinful, nonetheless Jesus said that He came to bring Life, Life to the Fullest, so I kinda doubt that He wants that for us. And therefore, if there is one politician who wants to give us all up as slaves for Putin’s war machine, and there is another politician who at the very minimum does NOT want to do that, then no I do not think that they are equivalent at all. This is a logical fallacy - the appropriately named “false equivalence”.
So yes, I see your perspective - I think I understand it better than you do, unfortunately. But we are in total agreement that if we KEEP reading, if we KEEP searching, and KEEP testing what we read vs. what we KNOW to be True, then we will eventually find the answers that we need.
Lastly, I will leave you with I Timothy 3:1-10 - yes churches are to be attended by sinners, so you can be LGBTQIA+whatever and so long as you are searching for answers, it’s all good (although there are some relevant verses such as expel the actual wicked, unrepentent evil-doers among you, and 1 John 3:9 seems relevant) - but LEADERS are to be held to a higher standard. How many politicians do we find to be unfaithful, temperate, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, and the like? And if they fail, it is our responsibility then as their literal bosses to vote them out, rather than continue to vote to keep them in. How much damage is being done by, let’s pick on Marjorie Taylor Greene for a moment, the people who continue to vote for her, thus inflicting her upon the entire nation as one of our preeminent leaders, capable of e.g. shutting down the entire government when it is time to vote for a budget, and expected to weigh in on important and highly weighty matters like Israel vs. Hamas (which let’s not even get into to, it’s just too deep)? I am glad that you read the Bible. I just wish that others would too. As you said, it’s not merely a tool that is fun to whack people up the backside of the head with (although… that could be fun too, I suppose - should I try it sometime? :-P \s), but it is also meant to be an instruction manual for life that should be actually followed, not merely something for lip service to be paid to (again verses such as Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:9). Here’s an analogy: if someone came at me with a scalpel, I might be worried? Unless they had an MD, and a reason to do so, and my consent. Context matters. Likewise, I have zero beef with people just living their lives however they want to live - but when they step up to be LEADERS, e.g. by voting, then their decisions impact me, and that’s when I start having more of an opinion. And especially when they reveal themselves to be hypocritical, citing the Bible but using it as a club to whack me upside the head with it, while ignoring what it plainly says inside of it, that’s when I might even rise to complain.:-P
I hope I offered some interesting perspectives to ponder in return. Thank you for a respectful conversation.
If we are being pedantic about the origin of passages, which has some value, I note that John 8:7 did not appear in the earliest written (Greek) manuscripts - that does not mean that it is false, but in any case it should awaken us to take extra care and precaution in interpreting anything that we see, even from the Bible. For instance, one thing that it does NOT mean (probably?) is that all law & order in any (Christian) society is forbidden. You can judge someone for being a murderer, or a rapist, or thief, etc. - there IS a need “for US to add to it”, in that if we do not, then our faith in the Bible is false (James 2:17-20), and it is only by working that out, with fear & trembling (Philippians 2:12), that the faith that we claim to have is shown to be real (Luke 18:10-14).
Note I am not advocating for anarchy - people train for many years to catch suspected criminals, prosecute and defend them, and yes to actually judge them, then carry out a sentence. In the case of a court of law, the proper person to render judgement is a “judge”, possibly with the aid of a jury, whereas in the case of a politician, the proper person to render the judgement is the voter… and maybe voters should likewise train for at least months if not multiple years in order to be prepared? There are minimum standards to operate a motor vehicle, b/c it is quite a dangerous tool if mishandled, and various restrictions (e.g. vision, or if someone misbehaves and loses their license), but for whatever reason there are almost no standards whatsoever to be able to vote. And yet operating an entire nation is even more complex, and mishandling that can have even more drastic consequences than e.g. a drunk or otherwise distracted driver.
Likewise, what are the standards to become a preacher? For an established religious denomination there can be an extensive process of oversight, but for the many non-denominational churches that process is often short-circuited, sometimes eliminated altogether but even when present, are often much less. I have an atheist friend who decided to register himself as a preacher, so that he could sign someone’s marriage certificate. It takes much less effort than I think most people relaize:-P.
Since WWI-II days, the Western world it seems has gotten used to government oversight. We don’t chemically test our own food each & every time we purchase and consume it - as unregulated industries such as drug cartels do - b/c we trust that the bad cases will be filtered out. But this is not done for religions, unless they cross a very firm line. And spreading misinformation, e.g. about a deadly virus, has so far not been considered something to be regulated. At which point it is on each of us individually to have to do our own due diligence, as was already true for picking an appropriate pastor & church community to listen to.
But no, I don’t think expecting politicians to solve problems is at all like grapes. Police, firefighters, schools, roads, bridges, and the like are all examples of something that if you had to do all of that individually yourself, would be an enormous burden. Heck, Trump created a vaccine for COVID - that is not something that any average American is capable of doing, even those with multiple PhDs and MDs to boot. It is an enormous task that we we pay enormously large groups of such people to be able to perform, using also enormous resources (someone has to grow the rabbits used for testing, if those are used, and someone has to grow the feed used to keep them alive, and so on and so forth). Politicians serve a function - if they did not then we could simply get rid of them, but it is not so simple as that. And btw even if we could, and barely notice a difference in our daily lives, there are still outside forces to consider - e.g. if Putin decides to take over America, the entirety of the Russian army (& navy, and air forces, and more) is not something that each individual person is capable of fighting off, one-by-one. We NEED government, no matter how many people (e.g. Reagan) crack jokes about otherwise. Otherwise we will become slaves. And while being a slave is not sinful, nonetheless Jesus said that He came to bring Life, Life to the Fullest, so I kinda doubt that He wants that for us. And therefore, if there is one politician who wants to give us all up as slaves for Putin’s war machine, and there is another politician who at the very minimum does NOT want to do that, then no I do not think that they are equivalent at all. This is a logical fallacy - the appropriately named “false equivalence”.
So yes, I see your perspective - I think I understand it better than you do, unfortunately. But we are in total agreement that if we KEEP reading, if we KEEP searching, and KEEP testing what we read vs. what we KNOW to be True, then we will eventually find the answers that we need.
Lastly, I will leave you with I Timothy 3:1-10 - yes churches are to be attended by sinners, so you can be LGBTQIA+whatever and so long as you are searching for answers, it’s all good (although there are some relevant verses such as expel the actual wicked, unrepentent evil-doers among you, and 1 John 3:9 seems relevant) - but LEADERS are to be held to a higher standard. How many politicians do we find to be unfaithful, temperate, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, and the like? And if they fail, it is our responsibility then as their literal bosses to vote them out, rather than continue to vote to keep them in. How much damage is being done by, let’s pick on Marjorie Taylor Greene for a moment, the people who continue to vote for her, thus inflicting her upon the entire nation as one of our preeminent leaders, capable of e.g. shutting down the entire government when it is time to vote for a budget, and expected to weigh in on important and highly weighty matters like Israel vs. Hamas (which let’s not even get into to, it’s just too deep)? I am glad that you read the Bible. I just wish that others would too. As you said, it’s not merely a tool that is fun to whack people up the backside of the head with (although… that could be fun too, I suppose - should I try it sometime? :-P \s), but it is also meant to be an instruction manual for life that should be actually followed, not merely something for lip service to be paid to (again verses such as Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:9). Here’s an analogy: if someone came at me with a scalpel, I might be worried? Unless they had an MD, and a reason to do so, and my consent. Context matters. Likewise, I have zero beef with people just living their lives however they want to live - but when they step up to be LEADERS, e.g. by voting, then their decisions impact me, and that’s when I start having more of an opinion. And especially when they reveal themselves to be hypocritical, citing the Bible but using it as a club to whack me upside the head with it, while ignoring what it plainly says inside of it, that’s when I might even rise to complain.:-P
I hope I offered some interesting perspectives to ponder in return. Thank you for a respectful conversation.