I’m one of those diehard readers who turned into a diehard show fan, so I don’t exactly see a lack of “integrity” in season 1… but I’m deeply in tune with the fact they are rapidly going to the dark horrific side where the Wheel of Time really thrives.
The reason I think WoT ultimately outshone RoP in viewers (e8 actually winning in a straight count) was because despite all the 1-star reviews before E1 even aired, and the COVID issues, the casting was spectacular and every single actor (and hopefully Donal Finn) can quickly become our headcanon of themselves even on rereads.
My Rand will forever be Josha, now. And my Moiraine, Rosamund.
My issues are more about the show’s internal consistency, rather than consistency with the book. For example, Dragonmount is west of Tar Valon - even on the map hosted on the Amazon Prime web page for the show. How does it make sense that Mat and Rand see it behind Tar Valon when approaching from (again, according to their map) the south? How does it make sense that Tear is higher in elevation and behind Siuan when she’s traveling north from the fingers of the dragon?
There are other small changes that I felt were unnecessary - they didn’t shorten an event or make it more clear to viewers - that I wish they’d just leave alone. Like Sanderson pointed out - if you don’t mention it in the show, it can still be “unchanged” in the minds of the viewers, even if the show handles it differently.
Anyway, I agree 100% that the casting is spot on, and will carry the show. I think combining the 2nd and 3rd books is a smart move. And I think moving on quickly from the adolescent attitudes of the EF5 was a necessary adaptation for TV.
My issues are more about the show’s internal consistency, rather than consistency with the book. For example, Dragonmount is west of Tar Valon - even on the map hosted on the Amazon Prime web page for the show. How does it make sense that Mat and Rand see it behind Tar Valon when approaching from (again, according to their map) the south?
I’ve always found “placement of background doesn’t match map” complaints to be contrived in any show. It’s there so it’s more visible. But if we must focus on it and try to explain it, they clearly left the beaten path to avoid Shadowspawn, and we see them walking mostly on something that does not resemble a massive thoroughfare to the most epic city in Randland. Which means if you must whine about consistency, side-roads coming in from a slightly more easterly angle, ultimately entering through the Cairhien-facing gate.
How does it make sense that Tear is higher in elevation and behind Siuan when she’s traveling north from the fingers of the dragon?
Tear does not show higher in elevation, the Stone of Tear does. And that’s canon. Yes, technically the location is a little off as she sails away. I reiterate the point from the above about harping on background topography like it’s the most important part of the show.
There are other small changes that I felt were unnecessary
There’s changes I didn’t agree with, but I would say each one of them either solved a problem or created dramatic value that I think defended itself, even if the change itself could have been done differently. But I’m also not an expert on writing shows, so I defer to the ones who put Amazon in the awkward position of their less expensive fantasy show outshining their Billion Dollar Baby.
Anyway, I agree 100% that the casting is spot on, and will carry the show. I think combining the 2nd and 3rd books is a smart move. And I think moving on quickly from the adolescent attitudes of the EF5 was a necessary adaptation for TV.
Ironically, I think that’s the part that’s gotten to me the most, though I got over it. I’ve always loved the Arthurian feel to TDR, and rate it a lot higher than many readers do. I would have even taken tSR+tFOH combining to get a TDR season that ends in Tear. Maybe I’ll get that later, but it’s definitely not happening in S2 now that we’ve seen as much as we have.
Steppin goes to Nynaeve for tea to help him sleep. They joke about it being sheepstongue root. Sheepstongue root a) doesn’t help you sleep and b) tastes awful. That would be fine - and we could all know that Nynaeve thinks Steppin is acting the fool. However, Steppin uses the tea to drug Lan, who presumably doesn’t taste it in his wine, and it knocks him out cold. I call that an “unforced error” - they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.
Steppin goes to Nynaeve for tea to help him sleep. They joke about it being sheepstongue root. Sheepstongue root a) doesn’t help you sleep and b) tastes awful. That would be fine - and we could all know that Nynaeve thinks Steppin is acting the fool
This should be the moment where you realize you’re making excuses (or others have, and you believe them), but maybe it won’t. Here’s the big problem. Goatstongue root is a canon sedative, mentioned in Winter’s Heart, and in fact the herb (per show and transcript) that Nynaeve gives Steppin.
I call that an “unforced error” - they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it
…by you. They picked an herb mentioned and used in the books, and it exhibited the symptoms formally assigned to it.
To reiterate… They got goatstongue root correct in the show and you are the one mistaken.
And I’m trying to be charitable to you, but I’m not going to lie. In the last 2 years, I have debunked no fewer than 2 dozen lore-adherence accusations by people complaining about the show. About half the time, it devolves into the other person hating on diversity or the role of women. It is really hard for me to see people who simply have a flawed grasp of the lore accusing the show of these utterly non-issue things and not see them as making excuses to hate the show. I’m sure you’re in the 50% of haters who aren’t whitecloaks, but can you see why someone on my side starts to take issue with all the silliness? I was back theorycrafting about in the mid 90’s and never stopped being a diehard, yet I seem to think they did a bang up job with the show and it easter eggs.
Don’t like Wotshow? Don’t watch it. Seems fair to me.
With all due respect, it’s not about you being wrong. It’s about the fact that you went into that as evidence of some big failure by the show after I was unimpressed by the (incredibly common) nitpick about where background elements show up in 10-15sec of the entire show, and pointed out that all but one EVEN MORE minor piece of one of those nitpicks were lore-correct.
In your words “they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.”
When…they did it correctly. And, consistently, they have done so far better than most readers who like to criticize them. I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for in a show in terms of fidelity if “people who know the books far better than I ever will” isn’t enough.
And perhaps you should take a breath. I meant it when I said I’m being charitable, not as condescention. Literally over half the discussions I have in this vein with the arguments you’re using ends with the other side devolving into a racist, sexist, or anti-gay rant. I am being charitable in NOT yet concluding that this one will do the same. That is legitimately charitable. I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself. Most came from whitecloaks.
So yes, I’m being charitable, not condescening, in keeping an open mind that you’re just having a well-meaning conversation unlike a majority of the people I’ve dealt with on this topic.
But it is wearing to hear the same tired arguments again and again knowing their bad-faith origins.
Contriving something that is not true is a bad faith origin. Complaining without watching the show is bad faith. Mishearing / misremembering is not bad faith. I made a mistake and admitted to it. I stand by my geography arguments - details like that make me start thinking about how things are different, and I don’t want to think about how things are different. I want to be immersed in the show. I’m finding that enjoy the show more on second and subsequent watches because those jarring details lose some of their impact once I’m aware they are there. You don’t agree and made your case.
I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself.
And that’s where you stop being charitable. I’ve been reading and re-reading the books for over 20 years, and my post history on Reddit shows that I have been defending the show from day one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems and/or things that hit me the wrong way. I shouldn’t have to apologize for wanting to discuss them.
I think you missed my point. Look at “omg, Perrin’s crush is bullshit” as an example (since it lets you stop taking this point personally). It is an extremely common (and inaccurate) take about the Wheel of Time show. There is nothing inherently racist/sexist about it, but there is one little other factoid. It comes from the whitecloak subreddit. So when you hear it, odds are really good that it comes directly or indirectly from that place. The best way to show that a thought isn’t original is to show that it is wrong in the same way a previous take was, because it virtually guarantees it is derivitive of that.
That doesn’t mean everyone who says “Perrin’s Crush” is necessarily a whitecloak or drinking their kool aid. But then 2/3 of people evolve the “Perrin’s Crush” topic to “and Woke Rafe is immasculating men and putting gay sex everywhere!” You can understand why hearing 2 or 3 separate one of those hot takes might lead someone to clench their cheeks and wait for the (hopefully not) inevitable next step.
In your geography argument, you DID some of that. The paths we’re seeing Rand+Mat take in the show work on a map of the Tar Valon area unless you get hyperliteral with the interpretation of roads despite the fact we know they left the roads in both canons. I have heard that exact argument at least a dozen times, and it is an incorrect take. I have trouble seeing how you would independently come up with the same incorrect take as them. Similarly, while the critique of the position of the Stone of Tear is valid, the critique of its elevation is NOT (and the original complaint I heard about it included the same invalid complaint).
It’s not your FAULT if you hear a complaint and become convinced it’s valid and embrace it. I actually did that around the release date for a while until I really processed it. We humans are more derivative beings than we would like to admit. That’s why I said I was being charitable.
I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself.
And that’s where you stop being charitable.
I disagree. I think you’re taking my point wrong. Let me put it this way. I thought Semhirage killed a certain famous character and thought it was my own idea for a while. It was wrong, for the wrong reasons, and my opinion was absolutely driven by the fact others had discussed it and (without my realization) it stuck in my head.
Flipside, for a very short time in the early 90’s I thought Birgitte was the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I can guarantee I came up with that particular pile of manure on my own :)
I’m not trying to say you’re a whitecloak. I was calling you on the increasing pettiness and inaccuracy of your critiques. That said, and in fairness, I do believe sheepstongue root is your own personal “Birgitte is the Do9M” and I would not have said what I said if it were the only thing I heard out of you.
It gets old, man. Trying to keep my cool as people complain about these random TINY little nitpicks being proof the show is ruined, only to have their nitpick actually be wrong.
If it were sheeptongue root, and this guy really thought the show was ruined for that, what does it say about him?
It was a sad day when I unsubbed from r/wot way back when. I had to stay away from over a year because there was nothing but vitriol towards the show fans, with their attitude of “the show sucks, Rafe never read the series, and anyone who likes it clearly don’t know the books… and whenever a show fan disagrees with their own stupidity they’re being toxic”. The damn whitecloaks largely managed to take over.
I’m reading New Spring right now and it just keeps trying to drive home the point of just how small she (and Cairheinin in general) are. It described her uncle Laman as 5’11" being VERY tall for Cairheinin man. And that isn’t much taller than the average man today.
Edit: I have no idea where I saw this. I did a search on my kindle. I might be hallucinating reading the numbers.
Edit: I am not crazy, but it was her father, not uncle. Chapter 10
He was very tall for a Cairheinin man, just an inch short of six feet…
I’m one of those diehard readers who turned into a diehard show fan, so I don’t exactly see a lack of “integrity” in season 1… but I’m deeply in tune with the fact they are rapidly going to the dark horrific side where the Wheel of Time really thrives.
The reason I think WoT ultimately outshone RoP in viewers (e8 actually winning in a straight count) was because despite all the 1-star reviews before E1 even aired, and the COVID issues, the casting was spectacular and every single actor (and hopefully Donal Finn) can quickly become our headcanon of themselves even on rereads.
My Rand will forever be Josha, now. And my Moiraine, Rosamund.
My issues are more about the show’s internal consistency, rather than consistency with the book. For example, Dragonmount is west of Tar Valon - even on the map hosted on the Amazon Prime web page for the show. How does it make sense that Mat and Rand see it behind Tar Valon when approaching from (again, according to their map) the south? How does it make sense that Tear is higher in elevation and behind Siuan when she’s traveling north from the fingers of the dragon?
There are other small changes that I felt were unnecessary - they didn’t shorten an event or make it more clear to viewers - that I wish they’d just leave alone. Like Sanderson pointed out - if you don’t mention it in the show, it can still be “unchanged” in the minds of the viewers, even if the show handles it differently.
Anyway, I agree 100% that the casting is spot on, and will carry the show. I think combining the 2nd and 3rd books is a smart move. And I think moving on quickly from the adolescent attitudes of the EF5 was a necessary adaptation for TV.
I’ve always found “placement of background doesn’t match map” complaints to be contrived in any show. It’s there so it’s more visible. But if we must focus on it and try to explain it, they clearly left the beaten path to avoid Shadowspawn, and we see them walking mostly on something that does not resemble a massive thoroughfare to the most epic city in Randland. Which means if you must whine about consistency, side-roads coming in from a slightly more easterly angle, ultimately entering through the Cairhien-facing gate.
Tear does not show higher in elevation, the Stone of Tear does. And that’s canon. Yes, technically the location is a little off as she sails away. I reiterate the point from the above about harping on background topography like it’s the most important part of the show.
There’s changes I didn’t agree with, but I would say each one of them either solved a problem or created dramatic value that I think defended itself, even if the change itself could have been done differently. But I’m also not an expert on writing shows, so I defer to the ones who put Amazon in the awkward position of their less expensive fantasy show outshining their Billion Dollar Baby.
Ironically, I think that’s the part that’s gotten to me the most, though I got over it. I’ve always loved the Arthurian feel to TDR, and rate it a lot higher than many readers do. I would have even taken tSR+tFOH combining to get a TDR season that ends in Tear. Maybe I’ll get that later, but it’s definitely not happening in S2 now that we’ve seen as much as we have.
Here’s a better example:
Steppin goes to Nynaeve for tea to help him sleep. They joke about it being sheepstongue root. Sheepstongue root a) doesn’t help you sleep and b) tastes awful. That would be fine - and we could all know that Nynaeve thinks Steppin is acting the fool. However, Steppin uses the tea to drug Lan, who presumably doesn’t taste it in his wine, and it knocks him out cold. I call that an “unforced error” - they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.
This should be the moment where you realize you’re making excuses (or others have, and you believe them), but maybe it won’t. Here’s the big problem. Goatstongue root is a canon sedative, mentioned in Winter’s Heart, and in fact the herb (per show and transcript) that Nynaeve gives Steppin.
…by you. They picked an herb mentioned and used in the books, and it exhibited the symptoms formally assigned to it.
To reiterate… They got goatstongue root correct in the show and you are the one mistaken.
And I’m trying to be charitable to you, but I’m not going to lie. In the last 2 years, I have debunked no fewer than 2 dozen lore-adherence accusations by people complaining about the show. About half the time, it devolves into the other person hating on diversity or the role of women. It is really hard for me to see people who simply have a flawed grasp of the lore accusing the show of these utterly non-issue things and not see them as making excuses to hate the show. I’m sure you’re in the 50% of haters who aren’t whitecloaks, but can you see why someone on my side starts to take issue with all the silliness? I was back theorycrafting about in the mid 90’s and never stopped being a diehard, yet I seem to think they did a bang up job with the show and it easter eggs.
Don’t like Wotshow? Don’t watch it. Seems fair to me.
“Hey, you made a mistake”
Hm, really? Perhaps I did. My bad.
condescending rant about how I don’t like the show
Take a breath, read more slowly, don’t assume everyone is a hater.
With all due respect, it’s not about you being wrong. It’s about the fact that you went into that as evidence of some big failure by the show after I was unimpressed by the (incredibly common) nitpick about where background elements show up in 10-15sec of the entire show, and pointed out that all but one EVEN MORE minor piece of one of those nitpicks were lore-correct.
In your words “they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.”
When…they did it correctly. And, consistently, they have done so far better than most readers who like to criticize them. I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for in a show in terms of fidelity if “people who know the books far better than I ever will” isn’t enough.
And perhaps you should take a breath. I meant it when I said I’m being charitable, not as condescention. Literally over half the discussions I have in this vein with the arguments you’re using ends with the other side devolving into a racist, sexist, or anti-gay rant. I am being charitable in NOT yet concluding that this one will do the same. That is legitimately charitable. I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself. Most came from whitecloaks.
So yes, I’m being charitable, not condescening, in keeping an open mind that you’re just having a well-meaning conversation unlike a majority of the people I’ve dealt with on this topic.
But it is wearing to hear the same tired arguments again and again knowing their bad-faith origins.
Contriving something that is not true is a bad faith origin. Complaining without watching the show is bad faith. Mishearing / misremembering is not bad faith. I made a mistake and admitted to it. I stand by my geography arguments - details like that make me start thinking about how things are different, and I don’t want to think about how things are different. I want to be immersed in the show. I’m finding that enjoy the show more on second and subsequent watches because those jarring details lose some of their impact once I’m aware they are there. You don’t agree and made your case.
And that’s where you stop being charitable. I’ve been reading and re-reading the books for over 20 years, and my post history on Reddit shows that I have been defending the show from day one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems and/or things that hit me the wrong way. I shouldn’t have to apologize for wanting to discuss them.
And by the way, I’m the one who suggested the trolls go make /r/whitecloaks. I was more amused than anyone when they actually did.
I think you missed my point. Look at “omg, Perrin’s crush is bullshit” as an example (since it lets you stop taking this point personally). It is an extremely common (and inaccurate) take about the Wheel of Time show. There is nothing inherently racist/sexist about it, but there is one little other factoid. It comes from the whitecloak subreddit. So when you hear it, odds are really good that it comes directly or indirectly from that place. The best way to show that a thought isn’t original is to show that it is wrong in the same way a previous take was, because it virtually guarantees it is derivitive of that.
That doesn’t mean everyone who says “Perrin’s Crush” is necessarily a whitecloak or drinking their kool aid. But then 2/3 of people evolve the “Perrin’s Crush” topic to “and Woke Rafe is immasculating men and putting gay sex everywhere!” You can understand why hearing 2 or 3 separate one of those hot takes might lead someone to clench their cheeks and wait for the (hopefully not) inevitable next step.
In your geography argument, you DID some of that. The paths we’re seeing Rand+Mat take in the show work on a map of the Tar Valon area unless you get hyperliteral with the interpretation of roads despite the fact we know they left the roads in both canons. I have heard that exact argument at least a dozen times, and it is an incorrect take. I have trouble seeing how you would independently come up with the same incorrect take as them. Similarly, while the critique of the position of the Stone of Tear is valid, the critique of its elevation is NOT (and the original complaint I heard about it included the same invalid complaint).
It’s not your FAULT if you hear a complaint and become convinced it’s valid and embrace it. I actually did that around the release date for a while until I really processed it. We humans are more derivative beings than we would like to admit. That’s why I said I was being charitable.
I disagree. I think you’re taking my point wrong. Let me put it this way. I thought Semhirage killed a certain famous character and thought it was my own idea for a while. It was wrong, for the wrong reasons, and my opinion was absolutely driven by the fact others had discussed it and (without my realization) it stuck in my head.
Flipside, for a very short time in the early 90’s I thought Birgitte was the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I can guarantee I came up with that particular pile of manure on my own :)
I’m not trying to say you’re a whitecloak. I was calling you on the increasing pettiness and inaccuracy of your critiques. That said, and in fairness, I do believe sheepstongue root is your own personal “Birgitte is the Do9M” and I would not have said what I said if it were the only thing I heard out of you.
Well put.
It gets old, man. Trying to keep my cool as people complain about these random TINY little nitpicks being proof the show is ruined, only to have their nitpick actually be wrong.
If it were sheeptongue root, and this guy really thought the show was ruined for that, what does it say about him?
It was a sad day when I unsubbed from r/wot way back when. I had to stay away from over a year because there was nothing but vitriol towards the show fans, with their attitude of “the show sucks, Rafe never read the series, and anyone who likes it clearly don’t know the books… and whenever a show fan disagrees with their own stupidity they’re being toxic”. The damn whitecloaks largely managed to take over.
Moiraine is too tall.
But really I see it as another rotation of the Wheel. Things are the same, but different.
LOL, yes she is but damn my headcanon is screwed because Rosamund Pike is now my version of Moiraine forever.
Fortunately, much of the main cast is still even taller.
I’m reading New Spring right now and it just keeps trying to drive home the point of just how small she (and Cairheinin in general) are. It described her uncle Laman as 5’11" being VERY tall for Cairheinin man. And that isn’t much taller than the average man today.
Edit: I have no idea where I saw this. I did a search on my kindle. I might be hallucinating reading the numbers.
Edit: I am not crazy, but it was her father, not uncle. Chapter 10