Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
First I want to say I appreciate your time and your responses. I appreciate having an actual conversation on the matter because I truly am interested in your thoughts and what you think the best approach may be.
Trust me, I don’t just want to change how we vote, I think that many changes need to be made to our government. My biggest question is how do you think we can make that happen? My opinion (just an opinion) is that the people have a much better chance with making changes through local elections and that the democratic party is more likely (at least at the moment) to put us in the right direction. Yeah, it’s not going to fast or easy.
I consider myself independent. I always tried to vote for the best candidate no matter the party. Then after 2016, I realized that overall the GOP was toxic for the country. I already didn’t like the Democratic party leadership but figured that while they suck, it’s much more dangerous for Trump/the GOP to be in charge again.
Again, I appreciate your time and if you can, please share what you think may be the best option forward. I know you mentioned voting 3rd party but what else do you think people should do?
i am of the opinion that the only real way to change both our system of government and society is revolution and that there is no path to revolution in the imperial core currently. because the core is where the bourgeois state apparatus is strongest, there’s no way to successfully defeat it’s combined political, social, media and coercive force.
I believe that what we can do is build parallel structures of support and governance so that as the state eats itself we aren’t left out in the cold.
i’m not posting in these threads to convince people of that though, most people are like yourself and believe that the state can be reformed to serve them. rather than get everybody to start reading old books and studying state action against workers so that they’ll come to see things my way, it makes more sense for me to build up the elements of reformist tendencies that overlap with my own concerns.
one place my ideas can overlap with reformers’ is that as the state enters managed decline we can influence which parts of the state apparatus get cut off.
it would be much easier to create parallel support structures of support when workers have more agency, so i support the growth of parties that are internationalist and worker focused.
with this outlook, there is no “harm reduction” element to voting for the nicer sounding of the two major parties because neither can be pushed left (see the last uhh 40+ years for evidence that the democrats can’t be pushed left) and both are committed to the maintenance of structures that presently undergird state power.
they’d both feed us into a wood chipper if it meant preserving the amazons and grummans of the world.
now before i get accused of coming in here trying to co-opt good legitimate grassroots browbeaten and bullied biden supporters, i’m also of the opinion that a person who genuinely believes in reform would be better served by voting for a third party unless their demands are met.
consider: as i’ve said many times, votes are support. parties use them to gauge how well their platforms and actions have been received and there is no way to lodge a vote with a caveat or a citation or a star beside it. all they will see is support.
a vote for biden is absolutely a vote for genocide. it cannot be anything else.
for reformers, if that’s unacceptable then they gotta at the very least do the easiest thing to show the party they believe can be reformed what their demands are: vote for a party whose platform reflects their own politics.
there is of course, much more a reformer could do to influence the democrats, one could contact their local party representatives, protest at the convention before biden is declared the nominee and any number of actions in addition to those.
but they all have to have the backing of a committed “no” to the genocide come november to have any teeth. and that goes for even circumstances where biden stops sending aid or all the pals die or get forcibly relocated or the icc steps in and puts peacekeepers on the ground for bosnia 2.0.
it is too far and if it stops it was too far.
am i concerned about trump? yes and no. he’s not a candidate i’d like to see in power but then again neither is biden. the overwhelming majority of americans survived his first term and he was shown to be a demagouge as opposed to an extremist then, a man more concerned with doing what’s popular no matter what versus doing what accomplishes his goals no matter what.
i’m always glad to talk to people about this stuff. be safe out there.
Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
First I want to say I appreciate your time and your responses. I appreciate having an actual conversation on the matter because I truly am interested in your thoughts and what you think the best approach may be.
Trust me, I don’t just want to change how we vote, I think that many changes need to be made to our government. My biggest question is how do you think we can make that happen? My opinion (just an opinion) is that the people have a much better chance with making changes through local elections and that the democratic party is more likely (at least at the moment) to put us in the right direction. Yeah, it’s not going to fast or easy.
I consider myself independent. I always tried to vote for the best candidate no matter the party. Then after 2016, I realized that overall the GOP was toxic for the country. I already didn’t like the Democratic party leadership but figured that while they suck, it’s much more dangerous for Trump/the GOP to be in charge again.
Again, I appreciate your time and if you can, please share what you think may be the best option forward. I know you mentioned voting 3rd party but what else do you think people should do?
i am of the opinion that the only real way to change both our system of government and society is revolution and that there is no path to revolution in the imperial core currently. because the core is where the bourgeois state apparatus is strongest, there’s no way to successfully defeat it’s combined political, social, media and coercive force.
I believe that what we can do is build parallel structures of support and governance so that as the state eats itself we aren’t left out in the cold.
i’m not posting in these threads to convince people of that though, most people are like yourself and believe that the state can be reformed to serve them. rather than get everybody to start reading old books and studying state action against workers so that they’ll come to see things my way, it makes more sense for me to build up the elements of reformist tendencies that overlap with my own concerns.
one place my ideas can overlap with reformers’ is that as the state enters managed decline we can influence which parts of the state apparatus get cut off.
it would be much easier to create parallel support structures of support when workers have more agency, so i support the growth of parties that are internationalist and worker focused.
with this outlook, there is no “harm reduction” element to voting for the nicer sounding of the two major parties because neither can be pushed left (see the last uhh 40+ years for evidence that the democrats can’t be pushed left) and both are committed to the maintenance of structures that presently undergird state power.
they’d both feed us into a wood chipper if it meant preserving the amazons and grummans of the world.
now before i get accused of coming in here trying to co-opt good legitimate grassroots browbeaten and bullied biden supporters, i’m also of the opinion that a person who genuinely believes in reform would be better served by voting for a third party unless their demands are met.
consider: as i’ve said many times, votes are support. parties use them to gauge how well their platforms and actions have been received and there is no way to lodge a vote with a caveat or a citation or a star beside it. all they will see is support.
a vote for biden is absolutely a vote for genocide. it cannot be anything else.
for reformers, if that’s unacceptable then they gotta at the very least do the easiest thing to show the party they believe can be reformed what their demands are: vote for a party whose platform reflects their own politics.
there is of course, much more a reformer could do to influence the democrats, one could contact their local party representatives, protest at the convention before biden is declared the nominee and any number of actions in addition to those.
but they all have to have the backing of a committed “no” to the genocide come november to have any teeth. and that goes for even circumstances where biden stops sending aid or all the pals die or get forcibly relocated or the icc steps in and puts peacekeepers on the ground for bosnia 2.0.
it is too far and if it stops it was too far.
am i concerned about trump? yes and no. he’s not a candidate i’d like to see in power but then again neither is biden. the overwhelming majority of americans survived his first term and he was shown to be a demagouge as opposed to an extremist then, a man more concerned with doing what’s popular no matter what versus doing what accomplishes his goals no matter what.
i’m always glad to talk to people about this stuff. be safe out there.