The more important person to punish is the one who let them do it
I always assumed that was the case. We are still experimenting with human drivers.
Considering 68.25% of all US crashes involving driver assist systems were due to Tesla Autopilot, I agree it’s an experiment.
Edit: let me clarify, ALL lane-assist based systems in my opinion are not ready for public road use. Tesla sucks, but they all suck if they are causing accidents and fatalities.
Woah that sounds really great actually, considering Tesla probably has 10x the autopilot miles driven compared to other manufacturers.
Any accident caused by lane-assist technology is too many. I won’t accept the loss of human life for a convenience technology.
That is silly to say. Cars themselves are a convenience technology.
Are they? Maybe here in the EU they are, but growing up in American Suburbia, a car was a necessity.
I’m not going to go down your slippery slope of ever expanding scopes on convenience technology though.
Suburbs and diffuse urban centers connected by highways are a consequence of cars, not the other way around. The US could have instead opted for public transport and densely packed services so a full shopping trip doesn’t take you all the way around the state. Here in the UK I can just walk into town and all the things you need are an easy walk from each other,
In America walking from one store to another store 4 stores away could be an over half a mile long stroll.
Caused by minimum parking laws that we don’t need. We could fix the problem by building our cities the way we used to before GM bought all the trolleys, and scrapped them, to sell more cars.
I’m right there with you. I immigrated to the Netherlands and I no longer own a car (well I have a track car, but that’s different). I just bike or take the train everywhere.
People are always going to adjust their risk upwards as technology gets safer. Even if all cars were self-driving and perfect, some pedestrian will push the bounds of physics, stepping out with no time to stop.
These drivers aren’t going to sleep or Tiktoking in the first 30 minutes. They are being lulled into complacency by a tech that generally does a good job, and they have been told by marketing that we are so close to FSD.
Isn’t every technology a convenience technology?
We weren’t making fires or using levers to inconvenience ourselves.
If you don’t limit the scope of time, yeah, although I’d say yesterday’s convenience tech can become today’s necessary tech.
I don’t know, the more I think about “convenience technology”, the more I dislike the term.
I live in American suburbia and have far more miles on my bike than a car. And yes I have kids too. Yes the zoning sucks, but also Americans are just more lazy.
One of the fortunate American suburbanites, many are not so lucky. I now live in the Netherlands and either bike or take the train where I need to go.
you have to compare it with human shampoo drivers to have this number mean anything
Your statement only works if you’re also accounting for accidents prevented by lane assist technology. It’s also worth factoring in cases where these technologies were able to make an accident less severe.
My parents have that Lidar cruise control on their Toyota. It was active—but not on—one day when I was driving, and the damned car started freaking out BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE thinking I’m about to plow into a parked car because there was a gentle curve in the road.
My car likes to slam on the brakes when I back out of my driveway sometimes. Super annoying
“WHOA THERE DUDE! Geez, didn’t you see that paper cup being blown by the wind?? Totally saved your ass.”
This is one of those times you should realize how misleading statistics can be. Can you think of what might be a more informative measurement if we are actually after the truth?
The number of inches of Elon’s dick is in your throat?
Love it haha. I don’t care about Tesla at all, but including the share of miles driven on Autopilot versus other companies’ tech would be much more revealing. If 90% of miles driven were on Autopilot, they would be outperforming their competitors.
How does that make it any more “right” that they’re testing on public roads?
Will you bend over for Elon when one of his “tests” ram a minivan on a highway killing a family of 5?
“Oh but this was one accident out of 5000 test miles driven”
I am not defending him, just saying it’s wrong to use misleading stats even with a good point.
You’re being pedantic then. The issue is not the stats because the fundamental is they should not be beta testing this on public roads. Have you signed any waivers if one kills you or maims you? I know I haven’t.
You should go to another part of the comments, then, because over here we were discussing the application of the statistic.
Okay mate, why don’t you show us all what the “more informative measurement” is for this?
It would be nice if the above statistic mentioned the ratio of Tesla’s compared to other cars. If 90% of cars with autopilot are trslas but they only account for 70% of crashes, that’s a good thing. There’s also the problem with wording, driving assist does includes a lot more than just a fully self driving car.
But the only important statistic is how likely a self driving car is to get into an accident compared to a human driver.
People really have to learn to seperate the tech from the man. Elon Musk is a piece of shit, that doesn’t mean everything he has his hand in is. Self driving cars are cool as fuck and if they aren’t safer than human drivers atm, they clearly quickly will be.
Yes, you’re correct. From source:
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) cautioned against using the numbers to compare automakers, saying it did not weight them by the number of vehicles from each manufacturer or how many miles those vehicles traveled.
I’m trying to find the Tesla:others ratio, but that’s proving a bit difficult.
A bit of a moot point in my eyes as I consider all 400 accidents unacceptable, but you are right, I shouldn’t use stats just to shit on Tesla.
Close, but usage matters too. Just owning a car with driver assist doesn’t mean you use it at the same rate. Share of miles driven with assist features would be better.
Then if you want to get gritty, I guess we could try to quantify how complex the miles were. Dense city miles and construction zones should count more.
I guess accidents per thousand/million cars on road would be more representative.
Think of it like this, if ~70% of all autonomous driving cars were Teslas, and they have a ~70% contribution to the accident volume, then they’re as bad as the competition.
I’m not saying Tesla’s auto pilot doesn’t have problems, but this particular metric is not the best one to say how it is compared to the competition.
Personal opinion: No manufacturer has an auto pilot capable enough to be on the road.
Another point that rarely seems to be accounted for is what type of miles are being used for comparison.
Aggregate autopilot crash rates may look good compared to non-autopilot rates, but if autopilot cannot be used in inclement weather, challenging roads, or other risky situations, then the statistic is misleading. (Statistics??? Misleading??? Well, I never…)
100% of the crashes in question were caused by autopilot
This is the best summary I could come up with:
“In late 2021, Lukasz realised that—even as a service technician—he had access to a shockingly wide range of internal data at Tesla,” the group’s prize announcement said.
Krupski was also featured last month in a New York Times article titled, “Man vs. Musk: A Whistleblower Creates Headaches for Tesla.”
But Krupski now says that “he was harassed, threatened and eventually fired after complaining about what he considered grave safety problems at his workplace near Oslo,” the NYT report said.
Krupski “was part of a crew that helped prepare Teslas for buyers but became so frustrated with the company that last year he handed over reams of data from the carmaker’s computer system to Handelsblatt, a German business newspaper,” the report said.
The data Krupski leaked included lists of employees and personal information, as well as “thousands of accident reports and other internal Tesla communications.”
Krupski told the NYT that he was interviewed by the NHTSA several times, and has provided information to the US Securities and Exchange Commission about Tesla’s accounting practices.
The original article contains 705 words, the summary contains 172 words. Saved 76%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
It’s funny how some of Elongated Muskrat’s testing and experiments involve the subjects dying.
Monkeys dying with the Neuralink experiments, and humans are dying with these autopilot tests!
Lemmy as a whole appears to irrationally hate Tesla because of their stupid CEO. I think his penchant for calling what is essentially “advanced autopilot” FULL SELF DRIVING should be illegal. But he’s a car salesman and for some reason the government is letting him call it that. Be mad at our lawmakers for that. He’s just a sheister and our lawmakers suck at reining him in. Tesla cars themselves are actually really good. Very safe cars that don’t roll over because of the heavy battery located so low, very responsive acceleration, and some nice quality of life low hanging fruit in the technology department, like my phone being a key. I was told by my Tesla rep when I bought the car to not buy FSD. It’s experimental and will not ever probably be driving you to your destination safely. The fact that they sell it with a name that implies it will is the problem. And people believe it. That’s incredibly dangerous.
On the same note of blame the lawmakers
There’s a lot of hate about Teslas cars not reaching EPA estimates on highways.
The EPA test is the problem. The test doesn’t include real world driving such as at 70mph and for whatever reasons, a Tesla often takes a bigger hit at 70mph than some other cars.
I don’t doubt Tesla did some ratio optimization on the motors to get better EPA numbers, that’s just playing the game, but please lobby the EPA to change the testing methodology.
Tests need to better include faster driving. Manufacturers should be required to show both numbers not a combined number in their advertising materials, and they really need to add some sort of cold weather test.
Edit: also the whole 2 different test cycles they can choose between is ridiculous. Make it all the same.
This infuriates me to no end. The EPA could just mandate multiple numbers!
I want a graph of the car going every speed between 55, 65, 75, and 85 on a treadmill at 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100°F while maintaining a cabin temp of 72°F.
I want to know how much battery it used at those temps, simulating catching every red light in a downtown setting, in an hour.
I want discharge rates for all those temps with it just sitting there for a week, same for a month.
“Combined blah” is horseshit.
Hey, EPA, hire this person!!
Non-consentual Human Experimentation is a war crime.
It’s peace time though so it doesn’t qualify
/s
It’s consentual if you buy it though.
Calling it a war crime is slightly extreme.
Except the other drivers on the road aren’t all in Teslas, yet they are non-consentually and possibly even unknowingly a part of this experiment.
If you hit another motorist or pedestrian, it’s no longer consensual.
War crime is a tad much sure. Let’s just make it a felony.
Random question I’ve always wondered about in case anyone is more familiar with these systems than me. My understanding is that autopilot relies on optical sensors exclusively. And image recognition tends to rely on getting loads of data to recognize particular objects. But what if there’s an object not in the training data, like a boulder in a weird shape? Can autopilot tell anything is there at all?
Yeah obstructions can be generalized to a road being blocked. Object recognition includes recognizing the shape of an object via curves, shadows, depth, etc. You don’t need to know it’s a boulder to know a large object is in the road.
Something like snow? The vehicle ignores what to do or where to go.
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Edit: before anyone goes and reads all of this, I’ll sum it up:
This is a textbook argument from anecdote. They presented their anecdotal evidence and conclusion implying that because they’ve done 10k miles, it follows that Autopilot accidents shouldn’t be this big of a deal (blown out of proportion). A scalding hot garbage take. I got a little emotionally off topic with cause of deaths in a fallacious appeal to emotion.
Ah yes, “I’ve personally done this and I’m the most important, therefore it’s not true. It’s the experts and engineers who are wrong.”
Besides “everybody look at me!!”, what is your point?
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And you say that based on personal anecdotes, rather than education and design/testing/systems implementation experience.
Do you think 10k miles (unknown time frame, but my point stands even at one year) is a singular meaningful data point for the thousands (millions now?) of Autopilot enabled Teslas?
What is the right proportion for it to be blown up to your loved one was killed?
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If it was an “experiment” I would know about it because it would be driving erratically and attempting to kill me but instead it is “pretty good”.
Mate, that’s not an experiment lifecycle works at all. The ignorance on display here is palpable.
I would be very upset that there was such an irresponsible driver behind the wheel for sure. That’s not Tesla’s fault. You can’t blame Tesla because they added safety features to the car…
How convenient, you avoided answering my question at all! And rather blame the poor implementation of an inaccurate technology, disguised as a safety feature (that has directly caused 17 fatalities, mind you), you blame the user (victim). Actually, I’d make the argument this isn’t a “safety feature” at all, more of a convenience feature, but I digress.
Also there are dozens of other cars with this same technology on the road but everyone wants to pick on Tesla because it makes headlines.
I’ll gladly shit on all the other manufacturers implementing this technology. It’s all garbage if it poses a threat to a human life.
All of this is out of scope as my point is your anecdotal experience is not significant and dismissing results due to your own biases is quite ignorant.
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Agreed.
eye roll I’m so ignorant. My CompE Master’s and my previous work in vision-based AI collision detection systems has left me woefully unprepared to have educated and qualified experience for this exact topic.
Why do you hate children?
I never mentioned children, don’t put words in my mouth. Keep deflecting.
:citation needed:
Here you go: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-autopilot-crashes-elon-musk/
Nifty: https://www.tesladeaths.com/
It protects human life.
I’m sure the 17+ dead human lives really appreciate this “protection”.
Maybe “results” wasn’t the right word. Dismissing the findings of engineers close to the technology might fit better, but I’m definitely calling the number of fatalities and accidents caused by Autopilot as results of Autopilot and therefore Tesla.
It is not my intention to attempt to change your mind on this technology though, I’m just pointing out your anecdotal experience is not significant and dismissing the findings of engineers close to the technology due to your own biases is incredibly ignorant. This mindset is harmful whether you accept that or not.
Best of luck and good day.
