- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
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I’m just going to leave this Collier video here.
Usually when this gets brought up, smug “nonpolitical” science bros show up and demonstrate (unwittingly) exactly the kind of toxicity against women that makes women leave those jobs (or change majors).
The thing that bums me out is that most of them are also victims.
A dude yelling that toxic masculinity doesn’t exist is exactly the guy who was abused by it. My husband was one of them until I explained to him what toxic masculinity is. And then he immediately became an ally. He was the greatest victim of that bullshit I’d ever met and didn’t realize that was what he was unwittingly championing.
Nothing outrages me more than innocent people duped into perpetuating a system designed to oppress them.
Toxic workplaces are the reason men leave nursing during a staff shortage crisis, teaching elementary and pre-k during a staff shortage crisis, and other critical jobs. Who cares if a bunch of college professors teaching “dog shit 101” are leaving? Oh no! Where are Americans going to be able to go into uncontrollable debt that will ruin them for the rest of their lives.
I’m tired of seeing these articles about women leaving pointless jobs “because of toxic masculinity” when in reality all I have ever seen in the several different jobs I had are women constantly backstabbing each other then blaming it on “the cultural”.
The only reason men don’t leave is because there is a cultural expectation for them to provide for their families, otherwise the family court system will ruin their life. This is the most useless article I have read in a while, just goes to show you fall “journalism” and “academia” have fallen.
I’m tired of seeing these articles about women leaving pointless jobs “because of toxic masculinity”
The phrase “toxic masculinity” does not appear anywhere in the posted Nature article or in the original research paper. In fact, the word “masculinity” isn’t used at all.
From the abstract:
Using a census of 245,270 tenure-track and tenured professors at United States–based PhD-granting departments, we show that women leave academia overall at higher rates than men at every career age, in large part because of strongly gendered attrition at lower-prestige institutions, in non-STEM fields, and among tenured faculty. A large-scale survey of the same faculty indicates that the reasons faculty leave are gendered, even for institutions, fields, and career ages in which retention rates are not. Women are more likely than men to feel pushed from their jobs and less likely to feel pulled toward better opportunities, and women leave or consider leaving because of workplace climate more often than work-life balance.
The paper isn’t paywalled, btw.
This is the most useless article I have read in a while
Based on your criticism, I sincerely doubt you read the article.
Yes, because this isn’t a dog whistle for toxic masculinity, when “toxic” and “women leaving” are used in the title.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Nothing in the original research article (which I still encourage you to read) hints at anything. It’s an academic journal article, the language is very precise.
This Nature article summarizing the work also isn’t employing dog whistles. The fact that you are interpreting “Toxic workplaces are the main reason women leave academic jobs” to be an attack on men is on you, not the author of the article.
Somebody has been sucked into the YouTube outrage porn algorithm!
There is no need to dog whistle, calling out toxic masculinity isn’t a negative thing and there would be no need to hide it if it was relevant.
Toxic masculinity doesn’t exist, it’s an oxymoron
Against my better judgment, I’ve decided to engage you in good faith.
The ridiculously high numbers of men who suicide because talking about your feelings is “weak,” are victims of toxic masculinity.
My friend who believes that a man’s “job” in a marriage is to support his woman, “no matter what,” and as such is a victim of horrific abuse, is another victim of toxic masculinity.
When my husband’s father burned all his sketchbooks at 14 because “art is for girls,” that was toxic masculinity (in addition to being fucking stupid).
That’s why I said it’s obvious you’ve fallen prey to outrage porn. The assholes who peddle these bullshit stories say that “they” (usually some group of evil feminists) are trying to tell you that all masculinity is toxic.
If that was true, why would they bother specifying toxic masculinity, instead of using the word “masculinity” as a slur? Why would anybody add a whole extra word there?
The people who peddle this BS are making you angry on purpose. Anger can cause similar reactions to addiction in the brain. It’s why outrage porn generates more online engagement than feel-good BS.
No, friend. Victims of toxic masculinity are rarely women. It’s mostly men, and mostly men who have been either taught, or abused into believing, that the “right” way to behave as a man is harmful. Ex; Real men don’t dance! Crying means you’re a pussy! Man up and join the army! If you were a real man, you could handle this on your own! Real men don’t ask for help! I’m sure you can think of lots more examples than these.
That’s why it’s called toxic masculinity. Because masculinity itself isn’t toxic. And yes, there’s toxic femininity, too.
deleted by creator
The implication is that some form of masculinity is toxic, but masculinity (and femininity) are purely mature forms of the psyche, in which men can exude femininity in a healthy way, as well as women can take on masculinity. Essentially, I’m coming from more of a Jungian school of thought where what could be considered toxic masculinity has no true identity in masculinity, but is a shadow of it. Kind of like those knock off designer bags.
This may seem to be splitting hairs, but if you view masculinity and femininity in this way it allows for more concise and target discussion about responsibility and maturity.
I can respect your point of view, but to ignore common parlance in discussing these issues and claiming they don’t exist, is not how you foster healthy conversations about how to support the victims of these behaviors.
Being pedantic about the language reads identically to someone saying that these issues don’t exist, and that’s why you’re being gang-rushed in replies.
The article title is outrage clickbait. So what? You fell for it and started ranting about the culture war topic you assumed the article must be about, but wasn’t actually. It’s fine to criticize shitty headlines, but maybe also don’t proudly take the bait.
You don’t even realize your attitude is the problem you’re complaining about.
Firstly, this article was talking in part about how an industry wide study showed the rate of post docs with tenure leaving the research sector was higher than pre tenure. The people teaching “dog shit 101” as you call it are generally students themselves. Given how far many universities will demonstrably go to cover up and even outright ignore students who are sexually assaulted by professors so that they can keep thier big named friends no matter how many students they attack this should be intuitive enough. Acidemia’s foucus on big names makes it vunrable to rapists in a way that many other industries are not, hence the study demonstrating the problem.
As for why this matters to you, beyond there obvious that rape and sexual assault is bad, it means that many of the most qualified and experienced people are being forced out of research in favor of less experienced and competent people. With how important pure research is to our modern world being worse at it hurts everyone.
Also i find it odd that you stated your comment taking about how many men are driven out of key jobs in favor of less qualified women and then ended it by saying that men arn’t affected by toxic workplaces and a tangent about divorce court.
Like you realize that this is a bad thing when it happens to men, but don’t think it’s a problem and deride anyone taking about it when it’s about women too?
Yikes
Toxic workplaces are the reason men leave nursing during a staff shortage crisis, teaching elementary and pre-k during a staff shortage crisis, and other critical jobs. Who cares if a bunch of college professors teaching “dog shit 101” are leaving? Oh no! Where are Americans going to be able to go into uncontrollable debt that will ruin them for the rest of their lives.
I’m tired of seeing these articles about women leaving pointless jobs “because of toxic masculinity” when in reality all I have ever seen in the several different jobs I had are women constantly backstabbing each other then blaming it on “the cultural”.
The only reason men don’t leave is because there is a cultural expectation for them to provide for their families, otherwise the family court system will ruin their life. This is the most useless article I have read in a while, just goes to show you fall “journalism” and “academia” have fallen.
Congratulations. You just demonstrated the toxic dudebro shit that the thread is all about, complete with Reddit-tier hostility toward non-STEM academia and concern trolling “what about” framing.
Precisely, man. Couldn’t agree more. How come, even though this seems like the obvious truth, most people disagree with you? And these pointless articles keep popping up.
I didn’t realize how far left totalitarian Lenny is, I got banned from “news” because I said the CCP is dangerous. It’s crazy here
