@gregf
821d

I really hope Lemmy stays more middle ground. I don’t feel I am right or left. I go either way depending on the issue. Voat is way too far right, and Reddit isn’t as bad but certainly goes too far left for me at times. r/politics you can’t get a word in edge wise unless you follow the herd, or at least it was that way a few years ago. I know most of you here are pretty left too, just hoping we can reach some talking points without the bitter fighting. I’m not even going to look at Parler. I know exactly what that is going to be about. I’m being as genuine as possible here, hoping nothing backfires. <3

People often become pretty quick to denote someone into a category of left/right without taking account for more nuances opinion on policies and ideas, in here i feel that we can discuss those things so long that we don’t enable racism, sexism, discrimination, and so forth in those political discourse. It also important to keep in mind that this server is pretty left as far as political discourse goes.

For an example of how unproductive label can be, some people would call me “Far Left” for thinking that we should keep capitalism as the base economic model, but to pass in more socialist policies like Medicare for All and stuff like that even though I don’t support throwing out entire economic model of capitalism for socialism or communism. That basically grouping me with other people who have different opinion on it like supporting socialism/communism which I don’t necessarily agree with personally. It’s the same thing with “Social Democracy” label that get grouped with various groups of people supporting either “reform capitalism with socialist policies”, “Socialism”, and “Communism” even though we would disagree with each others. It’s pretty unproductive to dismiss people more nuanced opinions on policies into Left/Right groups or under an ambiguous label.

Parler however is essentially a cesspool of people who are advocating political violence (literally the definition of terrorists), so it’s an entirely different ball game compared to any other community including Lemmy, Reddit, and so forth. So basically as long as any member aren’t behaving like a member of Parler is doing, they’re good to go, basically.

Lemmy is essentially an Anti-fascism server ( https://lemmy.ml/post/34286 ) which isn’t exactly a high bar for behavioral standard, it literally sum up to “we don’t support genocide, racism, and etc” on this server.

@gregf
521d

Well I don’t support genocide racism, sexism, etc. I feel the Anti-fascism movement from what I have seen on TV, can be pretty violent themselves. Maybe the media is making things look that way. I certainly have a distaste for the media in general, not just one network. I really like the website allsides.com, for a more balanced view. I’m open to hearing counterpoints on why my view is wrong for sure. I have friends in the Netherlands that have said very good things about Antifa, I get a different picture of what is going on here in the states though sometimes. There has been a few videos passed along to me tonight, one of which I’m watching now. Maybe someone can forward me something on Antifa that will change my mind in a more positive light. I think I agree with their message, but what I see on the TV honestly pushes me away.

I would also like to thank everyone for the well-thought-out replies! This has already been a more productive conversation than I have ever had on reddit.

I feel the Anti-fascism movement from what I have seen on TV, can be pretty violent themselves.

I think a good thing to consider is to not measure how “good” or “bad” a movement or ideology is based on how violent it is, because not all violence is equal. Take this passage from Paulo Frerie’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed:

“With the establishment of a relationship of oppression, violence has already begun. Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed. How could they be the initiators, if they themselves are the result of violence? How could they be the sponsors of something whose objective inauguration called forth their existence as op­pressed? There would be no oppressed had there been no prior situation of violence to establish their subjugation.”

It’s better to analyze the historical reasons why a movement may be violent and establish an opinion based on that and look at how the violence is being applied. Also yes it’s a good idea to talk to people about these things, like your friend from the Netherlands or people here on Lemmy.

@gregf
121d

Paulo Frerie’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed:

Good point, It’s not something I had considered really. I just have an issue with violence in general. I think the demonstrations at times have got a bit out of control. Maybe this is a red flag, I don’t know much from the front lines. I live way up in the woods, far from most of what is going on in the world. I have a hard time understanding how things escalate so quickly in the cities though? Help me understand as a redneck of sorts. All we see on the news, is buildings being burned, I can’t really get behind burning buildings any more than I can going around shooting an innocent person. So why is this happening? What am I not seeing in the press. Again I live pretty close to the Canadian border in an extremely tiny town. I don’t see much other than trees.

I should clarify that I am not black and obviously can’t speak on behalf of black people, these are just my thoughts on the matter and if there’s anything I should reconsider please don’t hesitate to point it out.

I just have an issue with violence in general. I think the demonstrations at times have got a bit out of control.

I understand since I’m not a violent person at all, but I realize there are important historical reasons for violence, and I’d rather there be violence for the cause of liberation than a “peaceful” world where the violence is silently applied to the oppressed.

So why is this happening?

There are a variety of reasons for the current BLM movement that stretch out through centuries of history, but the most immediate reason is as a response to the police violence against black communities and individuals. Black people have to had to suffer violence at the hands of the state and the police organ of the state for centuries. Burning down a police station and burning police cars is only returning a fraction of the violence that they’ve had to suffer at the hands of the same police organ. I suggest reading Huey Newton’s autobiography Revolutionary Suicide, where he talks about these issues in the context of the 60s. I can’t think of good contemporary articles or readings about these newer movements, there’s just a lot to choose from so if anyone has some good ones please link.

Help me understand as a redneck of sorts.

Rednecks have a connection to leftist movements! Coal miners at Blair Mountain in West Virginia were protesting for better working conditions and were labeled rednecks for the red bandanas they wore across their necks (Note: this may not necessarily be the origin of the word, but it was used in that way at the time). Just a “fun” fact.

@gregf
421d

I got some reading to do, videos to watch. Thank you for having the patients to give me well-thought-out answers and not just shout me down for questioning things a little. I’ll certainly be doing more reading up on the movements. I still have a hard time with the violence justifications, but it is what it is. It’s not really in my town, or city, not am I black either. So who am I to say. I’m going to order Huey Newton’s book tonight, as long as I can find it on Amazon. Thanks again.

@xe8
621d

Just on violence: you probably heard this argument in the video linked earlier, but all political ideologies are violent - they only differ in what circumstances violence is seen as acceptable.

In the current dominant world, it’s seen as acceptable that armies may use violence to secure borders, and to invade other countries to take their resources. It’s seen as acceptable that the police can use violence to protect private property, or against striking workers or protestors. Violence is used especially against minority groups within the working class - such as black people, LGBT, people with mental health issues. It can also be said that private prisons, the conditions which create homelessness, environmental destruction, or denying sick people basic healthcare are all forms of violence.

Unfortunately none of us get to just opt out of choosing an ideology or just being “non-violent” as it’s happening all around us.

Dessalines
admin
421d

I’ve also recorded that book as an audio book here if that’s your thing. That and black against empire are wonderful histories of the panthers.

@gregf
321d

Thank you.

@aeroplain
721d

It’s good of you to try to obtain as much information as you can before you take a position on issues, but do remember that just because there are two sides to an issue, doesn’t mean that they both deserve equal consideration.

Maybe someone can forward me something on Antifa that will change my mind in a more positive light.

Here’s another video.. It’s about an hour long, but it’s split up into five parts, and the time stamps are in the description.

EDIT: Do also note that tools such as allsides.com reflect the biases of their creators. In other words, even when using news aggregators that serve to curb bias, there will still be bias.

Thank you for sharing those videos, just finished watching those and learned a bit more about those differences as well as identifying common arguments and practices those fascists would try to make. It’s very interesting and I do notice a lot of those attempts made by the fascists though it ultimately leave me wondering…

“How do we end fascism ideology for good? Does it require better education, can it even be solved by doing that?”

@gregf
221d

Totally agree there! Saved the video for later, got one going on my other monitor right now, a series on liberalism someone linked me to.

@xe8
521d

I don’t feel I am right or left. I go either way depending on the issue.

You should definitely watch the video series posted by @aeroplain@lemmy.ml That will help you understand your own ideology and you can move on from there.

@aeroplain
421d

You’ll probably be a bit disappointed. As far as I know, lemmy.ml has been pretty attractive to leftists (like myself). Not to mention other instances such as chapo.chat (which was spun up after r/ChapoTrapHouse was banned) and Lemmygrad (you can probably figure out the pun).

Anyway, here’s is an interesting YouTube playlist consisting of only five 10-minute-long videos!

@gregf
121d

I’m not really disappointed, I already knew this. I just hope we can disagree on some things without the fighting.

Dreeg Ocedam
521d

https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/google-is-removing-fediverse-apps-from-the-play-store-because-they-can-be-used-to-access-hate-speech/

Quick reminder that Google threatened fediverse Apps to be banned from the play store because they gave access to some questionable instances. Will they do the same with the parler app?

riccardo
522d

Ah yes, 2020’s Gab/Voat. I wanted to try it out to see how its “frontpage” looked like, but it requires a phone number. No thanks

@QuentinCallaghan
creator
421d

Now there’s a term for platforms that turn into Nazi and far-right echo chambers, “Voatification”. It’s really useful for describing a common phenomenon. Funny also how Parler’s founder intended to create the platform for everyone, not just Pro-Trump people but now it’s just full of them.

Parler seems dubious for several reasons:

  • in order to send private messages, get a verified badge or respond with images or links, you have to send a picture of your ID
  • messages can be removed or users can be banned for any reason at all - even if the users are following the rules
  • users are asked to step in and volunteer as unpaid moderators for filtering spam
  • there are no blue checkmarks like in Twitter but “Verified influencers” who are promoted even more and whose content is promoted in the platform’s “Discover” section

And these rules, doesn’t look like absolute freedom of speech for those who want it.

@Octorine
521d

Avoiding Voatification is really hard. The problem is that whatever platform you’re providing an alternative to is still there, and if the only difference between you and them is censorship, then all the non-extremists will stay on the big site, because that’s where their friends are, and you just get left with the dregs.

The only think I can think of that might work is to have another major selling point besides the laissez-faire stuff, like an emphasis on security, or no/limited advertising, or better UI. Even then, it would be an uphill battle.

It’s too bad, because I think having some sort of “let all voices be heard” type of platform could be a good thing, assuming you can get some sensible people to use it.

riccardo
421d

users are asked to step in and volunteer as unpaid moderators for filtering spam

This is interesting. Have you had a chance to look at how it works? I’ve seen people saying that moderation is in fact done by volunteers who vote on reported content (if 4 people out of 5 decide the content is not legit, it is removed or hidden), but I’m curious about how it works: what do these people get to vote on? Can they vote on any post, or they have some kind of queue of reports to review? How are these people chosen? Do you get, like, a request from Parler to help them out with moderation or is it based on some sort of karma score? Or maybe they just voluntarily apply? Or maybe it’s just contextual and when a post gets marked as reported, the first 5 people to vote will decide its faith?

Maya
admin
322d

does anyone know a good “best of parler” thing to follow to see screenshots? i don’t want to give them more active user stats, but I’m terribly curious

riccardo
422d

r/ParlerWatch is probably what you’re looking for, although I do not suggest you to go there. I hate to be reminded the level of toxicity the right can reach when given an unmoderated platform to vent in

Maya
admin
222d

thanks!!

Ephera
222d

Yeah, it’s the usual cycle:

  1. A group of people get frustrated with moderation and potential censoring on the established platforms.
  2. Someone creates a Free Speech™ platform.
  3. It gets overrun by extremists.
  4. No one wants to use that platform anymore.
  5. Go back to step 1.
@Manmoth
-1022d

It sounds like you’re describing this Lemmy instance.

Ephera
621d

I’m describing the exact opposite of this Lemmy instance. This is one of the very few smaller networks that doesn’t rave on about protecting your “free speech”, and the moderators will have your ass handed to you, if you start misbehaving.

For example, by creating an account on a small network just to complain about that network – what the fuck are you doing here, if you don’t like the moderation? You could be on goddamn Reddit, of all places, and experience less strict moderation.

ufra
121d

One pattern which seems pretty common from Egyptian and Catholic priests, to court society and corporate middle manager fiefdoms to blue checkmarks and reddit sub mods is that a privileged class emerges under a legitimate authority and with one face abuses their powers with underlings while with another showering the rulers with praise. That isn’t always visible when joining a new network and people start complaining when the middle managers arise.

@aeroplain
421d

Honestly, I’m not sure if I want Parler to adopt ActivityPub. On one hand, ActivityPub is good, but on the other hand, I’d rather have the fediverse be without chuds.

Then again, it doesn’t matter. It’s a private business, so it’s against their interest to do such a thing, and so the probably won’t.

Dessalines
admin
222d

I saw this when I loaded up aurora store today, on the front page. they must be pushing it on fox news or something, there’s no way this many people would know about it.

Senator Ted Cruz advocated for it on YouTube, which is probably how the message get spread about it.

ufra
121d

it looks like in 2019 the site was big with Saudi users (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-twitter-saudi-politics-idUSKCN1TE32S) to the point where english speaking users were calling for a translate button.

@Manmoth
-822d

I’m sure the app is garbage but SOMEWHERE should stand for free speech because no one is going to do it here. All the admins are childish and ban people who don’t hold their views.

@xe8
922d

In the case of right-wingers, “free speech” just translates to racist speech. Liberals can easily be tricked by nazis into giving them a platform, but communists / anarchists, not so much.

@Manmoth
-922d

You sound brainwashed.

Dessalines
admin
521d

Do you believe you should be able to say anything on this site, no matter how racist? Yes or no.

@Manmoth
-721d

I don’t do yes or no questions.

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