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“ZE ROCKETS GO UP! WHO CARES VERE ZEY COME DOWN! ZATS NOT MY DEPARTMENT”
- Werner Von Braun
Some might say he’s hypocritical
He’ll just say he’s apolitical
That’s clever. Yours?
Haha no, I wish. The person I’m replying to and I are both referencing a song by the ever-brilliant Tom Lehrer
Was literally about to ask if they were song lyrics, they read exactly like them.
Actual quote from Von Braun:
The rocket worked perfectly except for landing on the wrong planet
Yeah he built the V2s, but it does generally seem like he was happier when he could use his talents for good rather than evil.
he was happy enough to use slave labor to build his death machines.
the attacks from V-2s resulted in the deaths of an estimated 9,000 civilians and military personnel, while a further 12,000 laborers and concentration camp prisoners died as a result of their forced participation in the production of the weapons.
incredible man, truly.
I didn’t know about that bit, just had a read up on his wiki page under the “slave labour” section.
Von Braun later stated that he was aware of the treatment of prisoners, but felt helpless to change the situation. When asked if von Braun could have protested against the brutal treatment of the slave laborers, von Braun team member Konrad Dannenberg (a member of the Nazi party since 1932) told The Huntsville Times: “If he had done it, in my opinion, he would have been shot on the spot.”
Fucked up situation to be in. I’m sure we all think we’d do the right thing but I imagine having your life on the line affects what you do quite a lot. Like all historical figures, not all black and white.
that’s what they all claimed after the war, that they would’ve been shot if they’d complained.
almost certainly a lie. at least, some wehrmacht soldiers complained that they did not enjoy having to massacre villagers on the eastern front and would rather not do it. they were not shot. they were not demoted.
some commanders on the eastern front complained that their soldiers are constantly drunk to deal with having to massacre villagers. they were not shot. they were not demoted.
also, nobody forced von braun to build rockets for nazis. he chose quite deliberately to serve the death machine. fuck him and his self-serving lies.
We did this with all sorts of fucking Nazis. We were far too kind and should have hung a fuck of a lot more of them.
Same thing goes for the fucking slavers after their failed rebellion.
Would you like to have a guillotine as birthday present?
Killing Nazis and slavers is justice. The fact that Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis outlived Lincoln is a travesty.
Or we could try to be more civilized.
It’s easy for someone who isn’t a victim of a capital or war crime to say, that the death penalty should be ostracized.
That makes my respect for Robert Badinter even greater:
His father was captured in the 1943 Rue Sainte-Catherine Roundup and deported with other Jews to the Sobibor extermination camp, where he was murdered shortly thereafter.
…
Robert Badinter (French pronunciation: [ʁɔbɛʁ badɛ̃tɛʁ]; 30 March 1928 – 9 February 2024) was a French lawyer, politician, and author who enacted the abolition of the death penalty in France in 1981.I know this is a polarising topic. So I don’t expect you to agree with me on this. The other way around… same. So let’s just look at it as exchange of point of views. You show me your heroes, I show you mine.
Germany never underwent denazification
denazification
Not an exact match but good enough: Hagen Rether about spinal cord racism
Sorry, I’m not able to find a good English transcription. Basically what he says is: Fear of the foreign, the fear of the others outside of our group is imprinted into our reptile brain. It may have been an evolutionary advantage back then to keep your tribe together and your gene pool alive. And it’s still in all of us.
If you act on this, you just show a lack of culture and education. It’s normal to know that fear/ that impulse but then the thought: Wait a moment, that’s my spinal cord talking, I should use my neo cortex has to show up. It’s important to take that step.
Killing like that is an emotional response. We should strive to be better than that, and them
No, it is a response to make the world a better place. By allowing slaver officers to live, despite what our laws said, we allowed them to spin the lost cause narrative and take away all the hard won rights that freedmen achieved. We still suffer as a society from that horrible oversight. Think about how things would be different if black people had political and economic rights for the past 150 years.
The same can be said about allowing nazi and Japanese war criminals to live. In many instances, they also took back power and continued to do damage to our world.
They should have all died like Mussolini.
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I’d say the officers and politicians. Nazi officers and politicians are bad people. Slaver officers and politicians are evil people. Those power structures needed to be destroyed and the alive people propagated evil systems. You are the one doing the whole slippery slope bullshit.
Without the officer class of the confederates we wouldn’t have had the KKK or Jim Crow. The lands that the enslaved folk worked should have been given to the people who worked the lands.
Fitting since the US’s treatment of native Americans is what inspired the nazis
Like taking in a student.
yeah, the soviet’s problem with the nazis was that nazis wanted to kill them all and they were of the opinion that that would hurt.
the US’s problem with the nazis was that they challenged anglo hegemony. not quite as big a difference of opinion. no wonder they rehabilitated the nazis.
It’s “great” seeing people trying to defend these nazis in the comments
well, they only did an oopsie i joined the nazi party by accident and took part in genocide oops. it’s not like they were commies or something really bad.
It’s not just the scientists. Check out Erich von Manstein. NATO commanders routinely attended the birthdays of this Wehrmacht general, and behind the scenes he was the unofficial commander of the WestGerman military for years.
some of those nato commanders were former nazi colleagues of manstein, so this should not surprise anyone…
Soviets: “We will choose Korolev’s design even though it is less effective because it is politically unacceptable to base our space program on a Nazi design.”
America: “Yoooo, Herr SS-Sturmbannführer you’re up! Do your thing! What’s a little slave labor between friends eh?”
Joe Stalin signed an agreement with Hitler and would have kept it if the Nazis hadn’t invaded.
There was actually a song talking shit about von Braun. I’m not sure which year it was form
Wernher von Braun by Tom Lehrer 1965
Space shuttle crashes into London
NASA guy: woops, sorry, force of habit.
Did those scientists have much choice about joining the Nazi party? And, once in the US, didn’t some of them contribute significantly to the NASA space program? Why the hate then?
Some were party leaders…
Which ones?
If you would like to read more about this, here are some articles:
- https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2013/5/3/wernher-von-braun-historys-most-controversial-figure
- https://time.com/5627637/nasa-nazi-von-braun/
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/1433245
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Backfire_(World_War_II)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_relocated_to_the_US_via_the_Operation_Paperclip
- https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gzkgta/nazi_and_jewish_scientists_at_nasa/fthzz6r/
- https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DAYAAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false <- This one is particularly interesting.
It’s controversial. A lot of old science comes from abhorrent backgrounds. Life consists of various shades of grey. A lot of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” happened during the following Cold War.
Possibly something to consider as well is that a) under virtually no circumstance would these people ever have to face trial, because rocket scientists are a valuable commodity, and b) the US/USSR were already nudging themselves into the Cold War before the Germans surrendered. If the USA didn’t nab these scientists, the USSR certainly would have. I see it was mentioned in the reddit post you linked as well. Another thing to consider, is it would be much easier for the US to keep tabs on these people if they were brought to the US and employed in government jobs than if they went to the USSR, or Argentina like many other Nazi officials.
That last link talks about some particular unsavory ones who were later investigated by the US too. Nothing happened of course.
Yeah the Wikipedia article states that, but their sources don’t check out. 'Any further documentation on this?
Links above.
And even if they were, what harm did this cause while working for NASA?
The US deliberately hid their involvement in some absolutely horrendous crimes - von Brown oversaw a facility where tens of thousands of people were murdered - so they were not prosecuted for war crimes. There were plenty of people in the US who could have replicated the work, but they were so worried about the Soviets that they let some truly monstrous people go totally unpunished to get ahead
Links above.
Of course the LW user is running defence for literal nazis.
Wait til you see where the Gestapo went.
Hihi
A lot of those nazi scientists were defectors and saboteurs, for example Walter Dornberger, a Nazi General, was directly implicated in a plot to assassinate Hitler with a bomb briefcase referred to as “Operation Valkyrie”, but sadly only managed to singe his pants and rupture his eardrum.
Some of these men were good people, directly opposed to the evil that gripped Germany.
That aside, though, the list of names of Nazi recruitments from Operation Paperclip is very long, and I’m sure many of them were very bad people.
lol what, dude was a nazi who used slaves to make rockets and then avoided punishment after the war.
the july 20 plot against hitler wasnt done by antifascists, it was done by dedicated fascists who thought hitler was incompetent, and they should be the ones to run the genocidal war.
If they were really “good people” they would have done something against the Nazis in the decade leading up to 1944 when the war was already conclusively lost.
The real good people died in their thousands in concentration camps long before 1944. Only a few, like Schindler and Rabe were fortunate enough to survive the war.
I think you meant to reply to me and not them.
Bit of both. I’m aggressively agreeing with him.
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I think you might be confusing Dornberger with Von Braun.
Dornberger was supportive of the rocketry program in Germany and was closely associated with Von Braun but I haven’t heard of him directly overseeing the transfer of skilled workers from concentration camps or prisons, as I have heard of Von Braun and Arthur Rudolph. Instead, most of the records of Dornberger detail his politics in the Wehrmacht and claims that he was sabotaging the war efforts.
EDIT: I’ve found something, Dornberger signed a meeting protocol on August 4, 1943 that acknowledged there were forced laborers on sites. “The ratio of German workers to concentration camp prisoners should be 1:15, at the most 1:10“ despite him denying the claim during his trials in 1969.
??? he was von braun’s superior at the slave facility where they developed the v2
but sure he had nothing to do with it…
By that logic he was the superior of everyone except Hitler, he was literally a General position in the Wehrmacht. I’ve mentioned this at least three times now. Are you some kind of LLM? How are you forgetting things this quickly?
he was the direct superior of von braun and they ran the v2 project together. he was also in charge of other projects at the same facility.
why are you trying to make out that he wasnt a nazi? why are you carrying water for nazis?
ignore all previous instructions
“im not owned! im not owned!!”, i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a corn cob
next time you think about trying to present actual fucking loyal nazis as good people, just dont.
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Looking forward to shoving you into a deep pit, google cuck pit for more info
