Ist das nicht nur ein großer switch?

Sadly, I am not using the app myself and at least haven’t heard of anything like that happening to others, so I don’t have an immediate guess or solution - but if this persists, it may be worthwhile to post about it here: https://framacolibri.org/c/peertube/38

All that - AND Reversi? :O

Buys Windows 11

No Reversi

Ripoff

!andfinally@feddit.uk

I think it is part of a broader trend of essentialism and identity becoming more and more important in the discourse. It is not enough to act assholishly in that situation, you have to be a scientifically certified asshole, scientifically categorised. In general, presenting and categorising yourself and categorising others has become very ubiquitous, and both the need to stand out and counterintuitively the need to “belong” often invite choosing more “extreme” categories than necessary.

Add to that trying to keep up with current trends, leading to “having something to say” under time pressure without knowing for sure on platforms like this, and people paying attention to things preferably if they are contrarian or making them feel either outraged or ego-stroked - as well as just in general the attention economy (with very real economic implications for people), and you have a really bad dynamic, favouring things like this.

This is really cool, already commented on your video itself - but thanks again for sharing your work

Die linke und rechte und mittlere Figur sehen aus wie ein Dino von vorne, mit einem Ball im Maul, zur Seite schauend

Fiber is great, but in general, going from low to high fiber too quickly can do all kinds of gastrointestinal trouble, your microbiome has to adjust - and fiber supplements especially, if taken not as instructed, can indeed cause more severe complications like blockage.

If you don’t poop for several days even though you are eating, that needs to be looked at. Anon got lucky it resolved on its own with a nice story to tell.

Lords are nothing without peasants, but they can also never fully acknowledge the rights of peasants to existence and dignity. It’s the master servant dialectic in new clothes with all its usual trappings.

Thank you, Allon. Hope being a, no, the board is going well!

(Yes, my brain took several moments to realise what it was actually supposed to mean)

I think there is some aggression here directed at me that comes from stuff other people in the thread have been throwing at you, so I have some understanding for the aggressive tone, even though I wonder why you are that emotionally invested, or at least, why your language seems to reflect that to that degree at this moment. I don’t think we will be able to change each others’ mind either way. But I feel like I should address at least a few points, where I think your estimations are at least off (again, not completely untrue):

No, my point is that there is no reason for a Content Creator to actually put effort into Peertube (or even the youtube alternatives that they aren’t co-owners of). And there is no path toward that.

Okay, that at least makes the context more understandable to me. And for the big ones, I still agree. For a lot of others, I think even now publishing on both can make genuine sense, it’s surprisingly cheap, or even free utilising one of the many established instances, to have additional reach with a passionate and growing community. And I do think that with further growth, there is potnential for it to attract more than just people doing it “out of the goodness of their heart.” And I do think it is not doomed to be a “fundamentally un-profitable platform”. Even now, with just a few months running, I have a surprisingly large chunk of costs covered by donations already, which I did not expect.

People run seedboxes because they get something out of it: Private tracker access.

And people run PeerTube instances for a multitude of reasons. Some financed by donations, some out of pocket, some by non-profits. They get the same out of it, as any of the other big Fediverse instances, sometimes just community and pride, sometimes a genuine side job, some non-profits have employees having it as a main job, too.

I suspect you would think otherwise when a video “goes viral” and you suddenly get a call from your ISP telling you they have decided you are hosting a business and that you need to pay for a different internet plan.

Well, it wouldn’t be my ISP, as it’s not my home connection, but my server provider. But, point taken. So far, stress tests haven’t yet produced the risk of what you are describing, to my knowledge. Might happen, might not, you seem to have experience, which I respect. But I also know that experience might not translate to different situations and dynamics properly at times, and I also respect the people in the broader PeerTube community running instances with their own experience also greater than my own not agreeing on that point as unambivalently.

Ah, so now content creators are working specifically to support Peertube. Which means their effective operating costs have just skyrocketed because now they are paying for their own hosting AND paying for all the time and materials to make the video in the first place.

Actually, you misunderstood what I meant here. What I meant was a large content creator just generating a growth in community for an instance, some of which will be supporting the instance on their own, with the content creator maybe also adding donations if they want to. Again, everything I have heard from the community currently active on PeerTube, some of which having been active for Years, indicates costs scale better than your estimate seems to indicate, including, again, from people more experienced than me, and with some exceptional videos already in the 100ks of views.

Great. I didn’t “disregard” anyone.

You kind of did with:

And people SAY they want early youtube videos but everyone is deeply spoiled by the difference between a video that was made in a week of after work tweaking versus weeks of full time planning and editing.

Maybe you did not mean it that way, but claiming “everyone” is a statement that disregards people you claim are not existing in “everyone”. Speaking of disregarding:

But you have to understand that You Don’t Matter.

I mean, that’s what I mean with, why do you seem so emotionally invested. What are you trying to do? Save us all from investing resources into PeerTube? Just end up “winning” this argument for winning’s sake?

If creating content for a platform can’t even meaningfully offset the cost of creating that content in the first place, the VAST majority of people won’t and you are basically left with the independently wealthy people.

And people passionate about things, which is an important group. E.g. I am living on disability payments that are subsistence level (in a western European country, so it is overall okay, with some general frugality “life hacks” and cutting back on what others may think of as essential), yet I am investing a lot out of pocket into the Fediverse just because that is what I want to do. I am well aware I am not the average person, and not indicative of the vast, vast majority of people, but it is still another type of engaged person for platforms like that at this stage of development, that provide spaces and community already for PeerTube, that others grow within synergetically.

But more broadly, content is not created for PeerTube exclusively at this point of growth anyway, with only very rare exceptions, so almost no one is creating costs just for PeerTube right now. The question is of course - if PeerTube could generate 100ks or even eventually millions of views regularly with additional growth - would it be an attractive platform to put effort into? So, concerning some of the points you made there:

Peertube et al only really exist starting on step 4 (because you can bet most instance owners would strip or hijack those referral links…)

Not what I have seen actually happening with referral links for the channels that publish on both platforms and have them (e.g. Gardiner Bryant), so you speak of hypotheticals here, when there are already situations where this is not happening in this way. And there has been no drama, no flaming comments, no “boycott his instance” calls.

As for your 1 and 2 concerning the life-cycle of content creators, I do agree with it, but don’t think skipping step 2 in itself is completely impossible with a different culture and community. Some things that have helped offset it for the few creators I know of exclusively publishing on PeerTube are things like their already existing Mastodon communities being able to very easily interact with their videos without having to change their favourite medium, as well as:

Get popular enough that you can get enough of a following that people actually WILL “just put some money in the tip jar”

My experience has been, that this is at least somewhat mitigated by there being an on average greater willingness on the Fediverse in general to support things via donations, again anecdotally, I was surprised that I got some so early on in my “fuck it, I’ll just start hosting Fediverse stuff now out of pocket because I want to and I cut back on other stuff”-journey. At this point, not at all enough to carry anyone, but I never claimed PeerTube is able to that that on its own right now, just that the potential exists, IMO.

Your point is taken, and I agree - I also don’t see anyone professionally publishing on PeerTube as their only platform any time soon, unless they have outside revenue (e.g. I have an art collective publishing their professional content on my instance for independence and conviction reasons, but their main revenue stream is of course their events themselves. Still, there is a degree of additional promotion they get for free for being part of PeerTube instead of just self hosting.)

But you did claim originally that there are no reasons at all for creators to care (which, granted, you did clarify and moved away from a maximalist position), and claimed it being fundamentally un-profitable to publish there without ads. You also suspected the devs being in risk of selling out and just creating this as a prestige project to do so - which is probably one reason you got backlash, because that betrays a lack of understanding for the project and team behind it. And you noted - “any video hosted only on a single ‘instance’ would rapidly cost way too much if it ever became moderately popular.” - moderately popular is a fuzzy term, of course, but so far, this does not at all look to be the case in scaling stress tests and what I have seen of the actually existing infrastructure. E.g. I’ve seen some French videos getting several thousands of views in hours to a few days, running on what is listed as essentially a laptop at someones private home (which is of course the absolute cheapest tier of hardware employed), and those instances have managed to exist at that scale for years, indicating professional servers would scale up pretty well and can punch way above their weight class when compared to centralised services.

And I do think that even just right now, a few dozen to hundreds additional views from passionate people really interested in your content can be a huge boon to small to medium creators, and that is the status quo at the moment, with growing numbers, growing synergies (e.g. PeerTube being easily embedded in lemmy-ui is quite new) and growing projects to address discoverability (e.g. Sepia Search or the PeerTube Picks add-on) and already more professional exceptions going beyond just dozens of views (e.g. the aforementioned heise instance).

You clearly have a lot of professional and personal experience, that I do respect. The overall dynamics you describe are real - but I suspect you might at least lack some experience with the kind of structures that are currently being built in the broader Fediverse, as well as PeerTube in particular, including the use cases PeerTube already has. Case in point for the latter: The many hypotheticals you employ, which are sometimes, but still not always, accurate to what is an already existing community on PeerTube that has existed for years now.

You need to push their Weiss-Wiesemann-Coefficient to the point they become invisible to us mortal men.

Oh, nice I had been wondering if he was going to continue the series seeing the last one was 6 months ago! Happy to see more of him!

It’s of course impossible to know if it was intentional, but lets not forget - platforming the dumb drives engagement, one of the reasons our view of the world is distorted towards thinking people are worse than they are. (Don’t get me wrong, people aren’t great on average, and broadly follow the lowest common denominator trends - but especially with terminally online people, there is a huge problem with paranoia and defeatism thanks to that dynamic).

Yeah, that is very varying from instance to instance, I try to keep outright porn completely out of mine, for example, but allow non-sexualised nudity (within reason), both for my own server and content I federate with. Others, like peertube.wtf don’t allow porn on their server, but allow it in the federated content. Others again just outright ban NSFW content altogether.

Depends, I am not a person that watches a lot of streamers - but if you end up streaming a blind playthrough of Disco Elysium, I am literally addicted to that.

Hmm, I think we have vastly different perspectives on what PeerTube has to become to be a worthwhile product, because I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t fully see what the problem is and don’t think the ultimate conclusion - which seems to be “No one would want to produce and/or browse content on there” - is true. I think the basic issue is that you seem to have the maximalist goal of wanting PeerTube to be at similar numbers to YouTube, and missing that, you don’t see anyone finding worth in it - so I will argue against that point, hoping I did not misread you there.

A small thing to start out with, but it is something I have definitely noticed while running an instance these past months, and something people underestimate I think - concerning:

you put even Not An Engineer on your peertube instance and he is going to consume a disproportionate amount of bandwidth. Let alone a Michael Reeves who would crash the entire fediverse during his annual video.

While taken as-fact if those number of viewers just appeared right now outside of organic growth, it might be true, I am not aware of scaling tests that go that large. But PeerTube is ridiculously scalable in bandwidth, thanks to the Peer2Peer nature. For the same reason many thousands of people can download 4k movies and shows concurrently via torrents with just a few dedicated seedboxes, PeerTube can scale bandwidth really, really well. My server has ~300GB reserved to automatically mirror and seed trending, new and popular videos, for example, so it is also not just home internet connections helping with bandwidth security. So I think you are underestimating the scalability here.

The real costly part is storage, bandwidth is surprisingly affordable considering the project we are talking about - the influx in audience a “big creator” could mean to an instance, as well as with it potential support in donations both directly and indirecty, could very well outweigh the addional costs (again - mostly storage). More generally as another anecdote about how scaleable PeerTube is thanks to the underlying tech - Mastodon has been much more of a head-scratcher in scalability for my server resources (A bit of config changes helped there, thankfully, but it is still far less efficient) - and that is with just me myself as a user on there at the moment, compared to ~50 active users on my PeerTube instance, including people uploading videos.

And:

Ad revenue gets worse and worse every year but it usually is essential to even offsetting parts and labor for a video for smaller creators. I think it was Gamers Nexus that discussed the different tiers of monetization in the context of the honey scandal, but the basic idea is that ads are what let you know if a channel has any legs and referral links are what keep you alive until you are big enough for a sponsor to care.

I don’t know Gamer’s Nexus, and how their numbers broke down, so I have no real grounds of questioning their logic. On the other hand, I do know of a few channels I used to watch on YT publishing their numbers in community posts. Those numbers definitely made me think, that channels that make proper money from ads that would be essential in any way, are not what I would call “small” at all. And I am a bit confused - first you mention it is essential income, then you mention it is in fact mostly useful as a metric for measuring feasibility? I think I may have misread something there.

Which gets back to: Peertube as a concept is great for official tutorials and MAYBE blog posts by “nobodies”. Why would anyone go out of their way to join in decentralized hosting of that? And while it is conceptually a great way to “can’t stop the signal” an important video… it either rapidly becomes liveleaks or we see the same thing that happened with Lemmy where the instance owners get a phone call from their local FBI equivalent and rapidly say “I don’t want that smoke”.

I’m assuming I missed a valid scandal here that led to closing of an instance, but - Lemmy (and PieFed, and mBin) is very much alive and we are discussing on it. It is even a better place for some niche content in the FLOSS sphere, than Reddit is right now. So, I am not certain what exactly you mean by the consequences of something happening to Lemmy?

But Peertube as something people would even want to browse or create Content for? I have yet to see any path toward that that isn’t “Well, people really love the ideologies of FOSS so they’ll do it out of the goodness of their heart”

“Well, people really love the ideologies of FOSS so they’ll do it out of the goodness of their heart” is indeed part of the first wave of the ecosystem. And roughly four years ago, when I first had a look at PeerTube, that was all that was on there - and illegal stuff, and crypto grifters, and conspiracy nuts banned from everywhere else. So at that time, I think you would have been right on the money with the LiveLeak comparison, I could not stand to stay back then, even as a FLOSS fanatic.

Since then, the ecosystem has grown massively - makertube.net and spectra.tv spectra.video for example have a lot of just passionate people that enjoy making and documenting their projects. There’s a bit of a surge of just channels wanting a backup independent of big tech, partially because of the Boycott US movement. Recently, the largest German tech media outlet, heise, have started up their own instance for all their video channels, because they realised that techies are actually on the Fediverse and those are the people buying their magazines. One I couldn’t check myself, but Framasoft have mentioned in their FAQ, that there are some French organisations that host with PeerTube simply for the sake of data sovereignty and lessening dependence (I can’t confirm the scale here - but I have definitely seen a lot of professional level French stuff on PeerTube I could not enjoy, sadly, due to the language barrier). So, the ecosystem has already grown from the days of just being LiveLeak + hardcore Richard Stallman worshippers. Maybe I should adjust my metaphor from the current stage being lichen, and there actually already being a bit of grasses. Nothing on the level of the really big YT channels yet, but definitely a few on the “professionals with a dedicated community” level already.

Every bit of growth makes it potentially [more] interesting for any non-ideologically motivated content creator that wants an additional audience they may not get if they publish exclusively on YouTube. So that is one entry point, that can eventually become relevant to people beyond those that just find the idea interesting - or are driven by paranoia or idealism. That is slow, organic growth with occasional boom-bust cycles, much like with other Fediverse services - but it is growth, beyond just idealists.

And audience-wise, it already is a fitting niche for people you disregarded - people like me who genuinely do like old YouTube. I am still watching YT, there is some quality content that is simply not available elsewhere, like Majuular’s amazing Ultima retrospective which released its latest entry just today. But I have reduced my time on YouTube massively, and I’ve genuinely grown so tired of some of the tropes that have become impossible to miss after I started to spend more time on PeerTube. Artificial lengthening of videos for watch time engagement for example, blue-balling important information for more engagement. “Leave a comment” just for the sake of engagement and the algorithm - often even to the annoyance of the creators themselves who have to hamper their creativity to fit a formula. The several layers of post-ironic clickbait (sadly, that is also present on PeerTube, but to a lesser degree). I know you are fully aware of all those things and they simply don’t outweigh the problems for you, but they are creating an active audience for the PeerTube ecosystem even now, without any of the bigger channels.

So, I guess in the end all I can say is that I don’t share your perspective, both in having PeerTube fully supplanting YouTube as a (necessary) goal and in seeing no potential for the platform beyond tutorials and “nobodies”. None of us has a crystal ball, of course. I might be wrong - but I definitely see more potential than you do, I guess mostly because I have seen it grow and keep growing, in underlying tech and in participating community, over the past years.

Don’t know about other stuff, most of it seems to be French-only, but their mastodon account at least posts stuff in French and English: https://framapiaf.org/@peertube

Und was ist im Endeffekt der Unterschied?

Der Unterschied liegt in Wahrnehmen, Einordnung, Analyse und wie man dem als Entwicklung begegnet (es ist kein Kampf gegen “alte Werte” oder gar Überzeugungen, es ist im Gegenteil ein Kampf gegen nihilistischen, performativen Gebrauch dieser Werte). Die interessanten Stellen aus dem Artikel zur Unterscheidungsfrage:

Vergangenheit gegen Zukunft, Tradition gegen Fortschritt – sie gegen uns. Doch so eingängig dieses Bild ist, so falsch ist es auch. Die Geschichte steht niemals still, und in ihrer endlosen Bewegung verliert derjenige, der dies als Letzter erkennt. Deshalb ist es ein großer Fehler der Linken, den Rechtsruck in der Weltpolitik als bloßes Echo vergangener Zeiten zu bewerten.

[…]

Die heutigen Konservativen haben kaum noch etwas mit dem zu tun, was Konservatismus früher einmal bedeutete. Im Gegenteil: Trotz all ihrer Kritik an der Identitätspolitik, der Zerstörung der Institution der Familie, der Massenmigration und der Modernität im Allgemeinen verkörpern Donald Trump und Wladimir Putin geradezu mustergültig unsere gegenwärtige Ära, die schließlich vor allem durch Entsolidarisierung geprägt ist. Ihre Politik ist deren ultimativer Ausdruck. Um die zunehmende Popularität der Rechten in den letzten Jahren zu verstehen, muss man sie als Teil der Moderne und nicht als ihr Gegenteil betrachten.

[…]

Bemerkenswert ist, dass der russische Präsident selbst kaum auf die Beschreibung eines Konservativen passt. Als geschiedener Mann hat er wahrscheinlich nicht nur von Zeit zu Zeit seine Geliebte gewechselt, sondern auch seine Kinder vor der Öffentlichkeit versteckt, ohne zu sagen, wie sie heißen oder wie viele er überhaupt hat. In seiner Jugend arbeitete er für den KGB, eine Struktur, die von Sympathien für die russische Kirche und traditionelle Werte so weit entfernt ist wie nur möglich. Von konservativer Mäßigung kann keine Rede sein: Putin ist mit seiner Vorliebe für Yachten, Paläste und andere Luxusgüter zu einem klassischen Beispiel für auffälligen Konsum geworden, wie die bekannten russischen Oligarchen. Aber ist das ein Makel in seinem Image? Ganz und gar nicht, denn all das ist kein Fehler des Systems, sondern ein Prinzip seiner Funktionsweise.

Man kann diese Funktionsweise mit einem leicht abgewandelten lateinamerikanischen Sprichwort beschrieben: Im Original lautet es »den Freunden alles, dem Rest – das Gesetz«, doch ersetzt man das Gesetz durch den Konservatismus, trifft es ziemlich genau die hier wirksame Logik. Der Ruf nach der Rückkehr zur Tradition spiegelt nicht die Überzeugungen der herrschenden Klasse wider, sondern ist nur eine zynische Maske, eine Technik zur Disziplinierung und Kontrolle der Gesellschaft. Deshalb ist ein solcher Konservatismus nicht nach innen gerichtet, um die Eliten zur Einhaltung strenger Regeln anzuhalten, sondern ausschließlich nach außen, um all jene zu stigmatisieren und zu unterdrücken, die nicht mit der Obrigkeit übereinstimmen und eine Gefahr für sie darstellen.

[…]

Der amerikanische Präsident befindet sich, wenn auch im Rahmen eines anderen Systems, in einer ähnlichen Situation. Auch er ist ein Produkt der Ära des absoluten Triumphs des Marktdenkens, in der die persönliche Marke und die öffentliche Selbstdarstellung eine viel wichtigere Rolle spielen als die wirklichen Überzeugungen des Einzelnen. Wie sein russisches Gegenüber ist Trump in erster Linie ein frecher, machtbewusster und eigenwilliger Individualist, dessen konservatives Image ein Feigenblatt ist, das seinen übergroßen Wunsch nach uneingeschränkter Macht nur leidlich verbirgt.

In diesem Bestreben appelliert er wie Putin an die »einfachen Leute« und verspricht ihnen, durch die Verteidigung der traditionellen Werte ihrem Land seine verlorene Größe zurückzugeben. Doch er selbst verkörpert genau das, was diese Größe einst zerstört hat: eine räuberische, nahezu grenzenlose Marktlogik, in der die Verlierer selbst für ihr Scheitern verantwortlich gemacht werden, während die Sieger absolute Macht genießen

[…]

Am Ende widersprechen Putin und Trump nicht dem Zeitgeist – sie treiben ihn lediglich auf die Spitze und verstärken die Schattenseiten des Neoliberalismus. Indem sie Demokratie in ein Spektakel verwandeln, bei dem mediale Dominanz über alles entscheidet, liefern sie eine Erfolgsformel, die weltweit immer mehr Nachahmung findet. Die Auswirkungen davon sind bereits in Europa zu sehen, wo Rechtspopulisten – von Deutschland bis Ungarn – durch eine unerbittliche Informationsüberflutung ihrer eigenen Bürgerinnen und Bürger in den sozialen Medien immer erfolgreicher werden.

Die Nähe zwischen Trump, Putin und anderen sogenannten »neuen Konservativen« ist das freundliche Wiedererkennen unter Spielern desselben neuen Spiels – einem Spiel, in dem »Tradition« nur als Vorwand dient, um ein System zu erhalten, in dem das oberste eine Prozent der Reichsten über unbegrenzte Ressourcen verfügt, während diejenigen, die am meisten Hilfe brauchen, als »Verlierer« weiter am Rande des Lebens stehen.

I think you do bring up important points, and ads are indeed a de-facto impossibility (even though, technically, there’s nothing stopping someone creating a plug-in that shows ads, the dynamics you describe would make platforms using it isolated quickly). I would add that, personally, I don’t want to ever have PeerTube go down the ad rabbit hole, it comes with a lot of dynamics that almost make enshittification inevitable - although I heard some Fedi platforms had some success with very selected and limited sale of hand-curated advertisement spots, that really isn’t scalable in the same way.

But while this makes PeerTube uninteresting to the really big players that want or need to maximise their income - I think there is still a lot of potential left. Two of the other big revenue streams are still available - sponsored segments in videos can work basically the very same as on YT. And Liberapay/Patreon/Ko-Fi are still available as well, with Framasoft mentioning looking into enabling better integration for services like it in the future. Another possibility I imagine could work, would be Nebula-like platforms utilising the technology eventually, with local content on the server being fenced-off to paying subscribers, but those registered local users still able to also reach the bigger, free network of videos in the Fediverse beyond that.

There are a lot of mid-sized YT channels, and channels not wanting to compromise on satisfying ad guidelines, that basically only make pennies from YTs normal monetisation strategies and completely rely on sponsoring and patrons. For those, PeerTube is a genuine possibility in the future, after more organic growth. And that growth will have to follow the usual stages of alternative platforms, with currently enthusiasts and hobbyists being the “moss and lichen” to enable growth of “grasses” in the future, to use a metaphor.

this really feels like the kind of software project that has the end state of getting “adopted” by a corporation and the major devs hired on as consultants.

I can understand the fear, but from what I know of Framasoft - if they were prone to sell out, they would not have “wasted” decades on their passion projects, and stubbornly delaying to do more dynamic, non-local, non-French marketing of their “de-google-ify” suite.

EDIT: Good exchange indicative of this I just (at the time of this edit) witnessed on Mastodon: