Should China be nuked? Basically, what is the end goal? Or just a new cold war (which I think has been in the making)?

Also I wanna see an extensive discussion about this because all the drama is getting really annoying. Someone should make a post for such a discussion

Muad'Dibber
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The sources for the genocide are Adrian Zenz, a far-right christian extremist who thinks that unbelieving Jews will be purged, the Austrialian Strategic policy institute ( who receives the majority of its funding from US and British weapons contractors who have a financial interest in stepping up US presence in the south China sea ), and the World Uyghur congress, run by Rebiyah Kadeer, once the richest person in Xinjiang, who fled during the last anti-corruption drive to avoid prosecution by regulators, and whose own grandchildren and countless others in Xinjiang disavow.

This is a great short video getting into the main sources.

If there was its the only one without a refugee crisis, and one where the population is rapidly increasing:

And of course you’ll notice that all Muslim majority countries don’t believe a genocide is occurring, only the west does ( who sees China as a potential peer competitor, and one not to be tolerated).

But FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds had it right when she exposed US gladio operatives in Turkey smuggling out young, poorer militants in the less developed areas. The goal is the same as that of Afghanistan: to destabilize the region ( which opens it up to US military intervention as in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya… via time-tested strategies inherited from the British colonialists in the ME ) by funding extremist groups to disrupt trade.

@pingveno
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And of course you’ll notice that all Muslim majority countries don’t believe a genocide is occurring, only the west does ( who sees China as a potential peer competitor, and one not to be tolerated).

I wouldn’t put too much weight to that data point. The governments of many countries on that map listed as in support of China’s Xinjiang Policy are involved in continued human rights abuses of their own. Many of them are also beneficiaries of large Chinese investment projects that can ill afford to anger China. As I started looking up countries that signed the counter-letter that map references, they nearly all have projects from the Belt and Road Initiative.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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Can you explain to me why the opposite camp, Britain and USA, are not worse in human rights records, colonialisation and genociding, as far as history is concerned?

All Muslim States are not Shariah Law states. And the ones ravaged are because of USA’s activities post 9/11. Mujahideen was raised by USA in the first place. The same mujahideen is being propped up for Xinjiang, if you watched US Colonel Lawrence Wilkinson’s speech note on Afghanistan occupation.

Why are you putting more weight on data points by anti LGBT far-right theologists like Adrian Zenz, who claim to be “sent by God on a mission to destroy China”, more than Muslim states?

Also can you explain this AMA? https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/hwi7ub/i_am_sophie_richardson_china_director_at_human/

Muad'Dibber
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Why shouldn’t they have signed up to the new belt and road initiative, which is the antithesis to all the colonialist policies that the europeans and usonians have and still are forcing on the ME? China has massively developed, alleviated poverty, and helped build thousands of Mosques in Xinjiang. They’ve proven to the Muslim world to be the opposite of the European colonialists, so there’s nothing to make ME or African countries uneasy about the partnership.

@pingveno
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They should feel free to accept investment from China. Governments have a duty to act in the best interest of their citizens. But China has shown itself to be punitive when it comes to sensitive topics. Ever heard of panda diplomacy, where China loans out pandas to countries that please it and demands them back when offended? It beggers belief that that policy doesn’t extend to foreign investment. That’s why you shouldn’t trust that those governments are being candid.

@AgreeableLandscape
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Ever heard of panda diplomacy, where China loans out pandas to countries that please it and demands them back when offended?

So what? No country has ever seen loosing a panda as a severe trade disaster so I don’t see how threatening them with this is good leverage. If you lent someone your stuff and then they started talking shit about you, you’d want your stuff back just out of principle, wouldn’t you?

China has so many other options for lashing out against other countries, like shutting down the operations of the other country’s companies in China, or taxing them on manufactured goods. HOWEVER, you can’t hide global trade relations. If China is putting economic pressure on a country, other countries, especially other powerful ones like the US, would know.

@pingveno
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I’ll put it another way. If you were the foreign minister for a ME country with a questionable human rights record and China had just plopped a multi-billion dollar project in your country with more on the way, would you do everything in your power to keep the cash flowing? Or would you criticize China for abuses that are no worse than what happens in your own country? I’ll reemphasize, my point is entirely about whether government statements from countries that are receiving Chinese funds should be viewed with heightened skepticism, regardless of religious makeup.

Muad'Dibber
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Yes, of course I would refuse, because I wouldn’t want tons of Muslim refugees flooding into my country if I wasn’t prepared for it.

I also would be equally wary of doing deals with a country that bombs Muslims ( just as Iran knows the US’s human rights record towards Muslims and refuses to do business with it ).

@AgreeableLandscape
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Except a lot of the Muslim countries that support China are insanely wealthy, with economies that aren’t particularly dependent on China. If comparatively small countries like Estonia and Poland (EU countries are more dependent on China as far as I know) can “afford” to “speak out against China”, so can they.

@pingveno
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Exports by country are instructive here. Estonia and Poland have less than 2% of exports going to China. Not nothing, but it won’t break the bank. Saudi Arabia has China as its largest export market by far at 19% of all exports.

@AgreeableLandscape
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You’re forgetting the import of manufactured goods. Almost everything is made in China these days because it’s often the cheapest option, and smaller economies are disproportionally dependent on China for that as they don’t necessarily have the money to do it domestically.

@pingveno
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That would be an incredibly risky move on China’s part. It would signal to the rest of the world that reliance on Chinese imports is a clear and present national security risk. There’s already a lot of discomfort around trade with China. They could easily trigger a costly trade war on multiple fronts, and not one that would turn out well for them given that 40% of their economy is industrial and 95% of their exports are manufactured goods.

@Wild
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I wasn’t actually counting on this being the post where the discussion happens :)

redyeppit
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If it talks like a wumao it likely is a wumao.

@null_radix
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The journalist that did this research are leftist.

Muad'Dibber
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That Buzzfeed article was thoroughly debunked a few days ago.. In short, they did more “google maps research”, took a google maps photo of a prison… and it turns out that’s a perfectly reasonable size of prison for a city of 1M people. A US prison for a similarly sized city would house twice as many people. Photos on google maps is what counts for “pulitzer winning research” now.

Oh also, the article was sponsored by OTF, a US government tech fund.

Are they really a “leftist”? They sure do spend an inordinate amount of time carrying water for the US empire by writing “exposes” of its main enemies like China and Pakistan.

@AgreeableLandscape
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Also, from the post liked in the comment (this one), we see that the Buzzfeed satellite images don’t depict a visible fence or wall surrounding the “prison”. So those buildings are likely not even for any sort of detention purposes. Unless the Chinese have figured out Star Trek style force field technology.

Someone on /r/sino thinks they’re apartment buildings, which sound more plausible than prison IMO.

@AgreeableLandscape
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Here’s a direct text mirror of the comment you linked if (or, let’s be real, when) /r/sino gets banned:

Here’s a pretty thorough post debunking Buzzfeed’s Xinjiang propaganda. [Archive dot org, local Lemmy mirror]

They state that this jail - which they call a concentration camp - has 10,000 people. In reality, it’s 3 times smaller than an American prison with 10,000 people.

In addition, the prison is next to Kashgar, the second biggest city in the province - with over 1 million people.

So basically you have a jail of 3,000 for a city of 1 million. This is perfectly normal. Under American incarceration rates, you’d expect Kashgar to have 7,160 people in jail.


Here is a picture for proof. Left is Rikers Island, an American prison for 10,000. Right is the Kashgar prison Buzzfeed says has 10,000 people.

Rikers Island can be found by simply searching for it on Google Maps (make sure to zoom in to 500 feet): Rikers Island · New York, NY

Here’s a video of Buzzfeed’s prison on Google Maps (to prove it wasn’t photoshopped).

@kimjong_ill
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what do you say about the fact that the us state department attorneys have said the isn’t evidence of genocide??

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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And all “leftists” liberals are not correct. Buzzfeed is Facebook news. Not sure why that kind of citation is thought of as serious.

@AgreeableLandscape
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@jelbana
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@AgreeableLandscape
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Okay, let’s assume that those Muslim countries really are as bad as the West thinks they are. Even so, why would they be okay with other Muslims being genocided to not be silent about it, but actively support the country doing it? What is there to gain, especially for countries whose governments and majority of citizens actively want to spread Islam? If China is eliminating a historically very significant group of Muslims, why would anyone else who is Muslim support it, let alone the most powerful Muslim countries who actually have the power to do something about it?

Also, I’d take “individual testimonials” with a grain of salt too. There was already a documented incident where an actual CIA operative pretended to be a Uyghur survivor of the “genocide”.

redyeppit
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If China is eliminating a historically very significant group of Muslims, why would anyone else who is Muslim support it

It is not Muslims in the middle east, etc that support this, it is their corrupt dictatorships/monarchies that bow to China due to pure money and greed. They could not give a shit for anything else.

@jelbana
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@AgreeableLandscape
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So you hate the West, but just trust what they’re saying about China? Knowing full well that they look down on all Muslims and have caused havoc in your own country? Because as far as I know, all allegations of Chinese genocide is from Western countries.

I think you also underestimate how dictatorial Western governments can be. Throwing citizens under the bus to increase their own power and wealth? Jailing and/or murdering their own people? Hell yeah it happens here.

@jelbana
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@AgreeableLandscape
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You do realize that Uighers are not ethnically Han Chinese and that China has no desire to allow self-determination or even the mere thought of expressing that desire?

Again, the only allegations of this are from the West AFAIK. Non-Han Chinese actually get a lot of special privileges not given to Han Chinese, like exemption from the One-child policy.

@jelbana
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@kimjong_ill
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I for one choose not to believe that the only opinion is the one stated by an authoritarian regime

okay, then don’t listen to the state. read the “evidence” yourself, look at the data and see that it is straight up bullshit. some things are outright lies & others are completely misunderstood and misrepresented data. when you crunch the numbers it is abundantly clear the “genocide” is not ocurring. seriously. do the calculations.

or, you could listen to people who actually live there. and if you don’t trust those people, how about non-chinese tourists who go to xinjiang? there are plenty of videos of people walking around.

Muad'Dibber
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If, as an Uigher in China, I were to say I believe in self-determination of Uighers, then would I be able to even last the day before I’m in prison?

You would have literally no problems. Listen to the thousands of testimonials of Uyghurs on way they disagree with Mike Pompeo and yourself on this narrative.

@AgreeableLandscape
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If, as an Uigher in China, I were to say I believe in self-determination of Uighers, then would I be able to even last the day before I’m in prison?

Except they have said just that. In the testimonial videos of Uighers from China and promoted by the Chinese government, they talk plenty about how those are not being infringed. To pre-empt you, sure, I guess those could well be “paid shills” or something, but the very fact that those videos exist shows that the Chinese government at least publicly claims to support those notions. Those are videos all over Chinese and Western internet and actively promoted by the government, so I think it’s safe to say that saying that in the streets wouldn’t net anything bad happening to you. Overall, I don’t really get what your point is with that TBH.

If you take all testimonials at face value, there are way more Uighers directly claiming that they have self determination than not.

By the way, I’m Chinese, and actually know people in China who live under the speech restrictions and a few who have even run afoul of them. No one goes to prison just for saying stuff against the government, unless it’s something like a call to overthrow it or something untrue and specifically intended to cause a public disturbance (so, propaganda), which, especially the former, would get you in trouble in any country. Probably the most you’d get otherwise is an official reprimand (which, to be fair, can lead to some other consequences, but those aren’t imposed by the government, mostly by your employer). I’m not saying that’s an ideal situation, but it’s a far cry from the instant jail sentence or death that a lot of people outside China think is happening.

@jelbana
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@AgreeableLandscape
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I have seen those Hong Kong videos, and frankly I’m not convinced. The ones that show police misconduct are cherry picked from a massive city with an enormous police force, and often lacking context (like the protesters being violent beforehand). I also couldn’t find any footage or definitive proof that anyone was killed by police during the protests. You also have to realize that they were causing a complete blockade of the city’s operations, from universities, to public transport, to non-police emergency services, often employing a large amount of violence to cause the disruptions, even attacking Mainland China supporters they find. That form of protesting would definitely violate freedom of assembly rights in any country.

Do I support police misconduct in any situation? Of course not. But I’m not sold on that it’s happening all over the city or is an order handed down from the central government.

More links on the topic: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 6

I have spoken to more than a few Chinese students at the university I attend to know for a fact that it is simply not possible to speak freely in China about politics.

Speak freely like in Canada or Europe, maybe not, but have you asked them how much discourse is actually going on? Because I guarantee you that it’s not zero, especially in person, between family and friends, which is impossible to censor. I also think it’s not particularly fair to automatically assume any party is guilty. There needs to be evidence, and so far almost every piece of evidence the West has provided has either been unverifiable or debunked.

I’m actually really interested specifically in what your Chinese friends say about this, please tell me.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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You look like someone who has not bothered to look at the other side. Not Xinjiang. Not Hong Kong.

Personally, for me, Hallelujah chants and USA flag hoisting in HK was the turning point of my life, as far as political understanding goes. That seems too displaced in HK.

Want to see the atrocities committed by the rioters that some people called “protestors”? https://www.truth-hk.com/

Have you ever read Article 23 of Basic Law for Hong Kong? Also, do you believe colonialised HK was a better HK? You might learn when your country gets colonised, in that case. Mine was for 2 centuries, India.

@kimjong_ill
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i would say perhaps you would understand more if you went to 新疆维吾尔自治区 but it appears you are an anarchist so i don’t see you being able to separate the idea of china in your head from the real china. that name up there reads “xinjiang uighur autonomous region”, by the way. an autonomous region has different legislative power than a province. they also are required in xinjiang to have higher offices held by uighurs. so i think they would know better than some anarchist what is best for them.

Muad'Dibber
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China is an authoritarian regime that is more than happy to oppress its own citizen.

Who told you this? Do you have anything to back up this claim? Why is China’s life expectancy and real wages skyrocketing? Why are its poverty alleviation campaigns so successful?

redyeppit
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If it talks like a wumao it is likely a wumao

@jelbana
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Muad'Dibber
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For the sake of this discussion. It is worth noting that every Muslim country you mention would rank very low with regards to human rights or freedom of press.

The US, UK, France, etc have spent the past 100+ years carving up the ME, destabilizing it, dividing and conquering, bombing and killing its people, and sanctioning it. Saying that their governments aren’t to be trusted, that “they’re all dictatorships”, whilst holding up your own imperial press as the only “trustworthy” source, is typical western chauvinism.

Why is the west more trustworthy, and more “respectful of human rights”, than those countries they’ve bombed?

@jelbana
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Muad'Dibber
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What makes you think that western countries are telling you the truth, whilst Muslim countries are lying?

So why do you not trust stories from Muslim journalists, and only trust western propagandists whose bosses have bombed your country instead?

  • A Pakistani Diplomat given full access to “re-education camps” and this is what she found.
    • Despite claims of “erasing Uyghur culture”, they stated: “I did not find any instance of forced labor or cultural and religious repression. The imams we met at the mosques and the students and teachers at the Xinjiang Islamic Institute told us that they enjoy freedom in practicing Islam and that the Chinese government extends support for maintenance of mosques all over Xinjiang. […]The most visible sign of protection of Uyghur culture by the government is the government-run bilingual kindergarten schools where children learn Putonghua as well as Uyghur language and culture from a very young age.”
@TheAnonymouseJoker
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You are the one pretending to be Muslim, probably. I have Muslim friends in Palestine, Saudi, Kuwait and elsewhere.

Sorry bud, you cannot talk on behalf of Muslims if you are supporting the ones that genocides and ravaged MEA in the last 2 decades.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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Can you downvoters explain to me this about the ETIM terrorists? The fact that even some Muslims are brainwashed about fellow Muslims is disappointing, just because they consume Western propaganda.

If anyone downvotes this, they would actually be supporting Uyghur kids become free terrorists instead of prosperity.

@jelbana
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@TheAnonymouseJoker
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No, I do not view world as a binary partisan format. In fact, I very much oppose it. I suppose you read me wrong, but I do not expect most to ever be able to read me, anyway.

Saudi and Israel are puppets for USA, no matter what they conspire internally. And yes, opposition to those entities is very much in line. Can tell from my years of talking to MEA friends.

My guess is Turkey or Lebanon, leaning on former. And I can see where your Uyghur sympathy comes from. It is displaced, that is all I can tell. In case you read this wrong too, I am not calling all Uyghurs, but the Turkic and Wahhabi extremists specifically falling hook and sinker.

@Phantom_Engineer
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What next? If previous genocides in history are any indication it works and they get away with it. Looking back over history failed genocides and punishments for perpetrators are the exception, not the rule. History is written by the victors, after all.

redyeppit
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Yep bullies won’t stop by asking them nicely. The Nazis only got stopped not through negotiations but rather they got invaded by the allied forces. Not saying we should invade now due to nukes but there are other ways to pressure China.

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