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@jazzfes
19
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25d

I can fully recommend a Fairphone 3+. I’m using one now for a few months and it’s great!

Excellent battery life of around two days. Installing lineageos took maybe 10 minutes. And I haven’t noticed any bugs.

Since all bloat is removed it’s super quick. On top of this, you can get replacement parts and easily screw them in. No glue, no heat guns, or heat plates. Battery is also replaceable.

I also like the ethics in their procurement.

Check it out:

https://www.fairphone.com/en/

On top, you don’t end up giving your money to Google.

@Gwynne
creator
5
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Ephera
925d

It’s well-supported by LineageOS and will probably remain supported for longer than most other phones. That’s the only benefit that I’m aware of, but that makes it already better than like 99% of phones on the market.

@jazzfes
4
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25d

Well yes! It is dead easy to have a de-googled phone. You can then do all the things in firefox etc. you do to enhance privacy. Install apps via F-Droid store (open source apps only). Some VPN provider have their apps on F-Droid as well.

If you still need some level of Google services, I suppose you could install MicroG. I haven’t tried that though.

Jama
325d

No privacy nightmare ui (like miui) and no bloat or privacy invasive apps (no Facebook preinstalled and suchlike). And if you ever want to switch to a degoogled phone using microg it will be easy (a degoogled phone means of course Google will not be able to spy on your notifications, locations, apps, etc.). You can try to check /e/ system phones, or iodè phones too (both degoogles), but you really need to know what you’re doing and which of the apps you use will not work (those are rare, but exist)

@jazzfes
3
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24d

Just a nitpick:

microg is optional mostly. You can install most apps from the playstore via e.g. Aurora store. However if you don’t have microg or something similar, some of the propriety ones won’t work.

I rarely run into an issue with this, and I’m using LineageOS without microg or similar for many years. The only issue that was a bit annoying was the local contact tracing app, which didn’t work and which, for a moment, made me think I may not be able to visit a sports game… turned out well though and didn’t need the app to get in :)

@Eldbogi
325d

Yeah the only reason I’m using mircog is that it’s needed for notifications for some apps that I use.

@ajz
12
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25d

Fairphone and Volla phone look like fine choices to me. For the Fairphone you will have the choice to install LineageOS with FP community support, and probably a longer software life than on some other phones, with Ubuntu Touch (UT core device with the FP2) on the way for the the FP3. Volla Phone comes with a privacy friendly Volla OS, but you can have Ubuntu Touch on it (pre-installed or install it yourself), or SailfishOS (not pre-installed because of license issues, but it is an option to install it yourself). Volla is now a core device (Now they call it suggested device iirc) for Ubuntu Touch so you will have a dev team working on its software development. Ubuntu Touch does not have many “good” apps but it is an interesting choice privacy wise if you don’t need something like an Android phone with lots of commercial apps. Perhaps good to add is that Fairphone is about sustainability and being fair, it is not primarily focused on privacy. For that it makes sense to install LineageOS or Ubuntu Touch yourself (Or buy a pre-installed /e/ Fairphone if you don’t like to mess with custom ROMs installs)

Cube
224d
  • you can also get a /e/os fairphone
@Qgpkje4rY5s
825d

Any one of the recommended Pixel phones running GrapheneOS: https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices

came here to say that

@ajz
524d

If you really want a phone without firmware blobs and with libre software, then these old phones with Replicant are an option https://tehnoetic.com/ Probably not a valid choice for most users, but still I feel this project (and the closed source firmware problems on almost all phones) deserves more attention.

@Gwynne
creator
4
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@ajz
3
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24d

Maybe that is correct, but you can still buy new batteries for those models and swap them (unlike with most new phones) and on the second hand markets these phones are so cheap that you could buy another one so you can use it to charge an empty battery, after putting the other full battery in the main phone. If you would want to go full Libre mode, I think they (tehnoetic.com) would remove the wifi adapter and you would have to use a usb dongle for WiFi.

@Gwynne
creator
3
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@ajz
324d

Depending on what you need the phone apps for, you can also try out Android on Raspberry Pi. The upside is that the hardware is not completely open source but probably much longer supported than the average phone and the whole setup is probably more privacy friendly. And there is also Android x86 project (Which unfortunately comes with Gapps pre-installed) which can run completely from usb stick! https://lemmy.ml/post/65521

@ajz
324d

as for banking and other stuff that needs gapps I’ll just buy something like motorola

If you want LineageOS on a supported Motorola phone note that you will need to ask Motorola to unlock your bootloader. And I read that this does not always goes smooth for all models. Only a few companies work like this (Maybe because then they know you willingly broke the warranty).

@ajz
324d

I could buy the phone secondhand and do all the blob removal work myself is that correct?

Not sure. You could ask them details : https://tehnoetic.com/faq Per device they offer more information, for example : https://tehnoetic.com/mobile-devices/tehnoetic-s3-phone-replicant

Technoethical S3 smartphones are refurbished Samsung Galaxy S3’s pre-installed with the 100% free operating system Replicant. Please note that while the main processor is running only free software, the modem processor is running a Samsung nonfree system.

Sorry, I see that I remembered things incorrectly. With Libreboot on laptops the wifi card often (?) gets replaced . (Libreboot or Coreboot is something I wanted on my computer for years, but it is not so very easy to do that yourself) but it looks like these Samsung phones still have the hardware modem and WiFi ?

Text of one of the reviews :

If your looking for a freedom respecting phone this is about as good as it gets as of 04/2017. Tehnoethical does a great job sending quality used phones with a Replicant version of your choosing. They even install WiFi scripts that work with any freedom respecting USB adapter (sold separately by ThinkPenguin and Technoethical), however I found the process of using terminal scripts and a separate USB dongle to be cumbersome. I recommend looking up Replicant’s guide on USB networking or getting a big data plan over spending additional money on dongles.

As far as I understand the Replicant OS is like 100% Libre, removing binary blobs. Good to note is that flashing ROMs for those Samsung Galaxy is unfortunately not super easy because of the ODIN layer and partitioning. You probably need so-called pit files, and find the right ones. A few years ago I had to search for some time for a good howto (and found it via the XDA dev. forum) because the official LineageOS howto was incomplete but all went well. Another thing is that with Replicant you will get an older version of Android (Android 6 ?) compared to LineageOS or OmniROM. Probably has no impact on most of the apps you need, but just FYI.

@Gwynne
creator
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@ajz
324d

I’ll see if I can find the right howto. Been thinking about trying out a Replicant install on that phone.

Those S2 phones can probably still be bought for 30 or 40 Euros second hand, and iirc a new battery was something like 15 Euros.

@Gwynne
creator
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@ajz
324d

Dunno. I’ve read that Fairphone tried their best to make their phones as open source as possible but the WiFi adapter was a problem. (Also a problem with the Pinephone, but at least Pinephone has nice hardware kill switches to turn WiFi off). So in all cases, if you would want to use the build in WiFi, there is the dependency on closed source firmware for it. I can imagine there is not a super high chance that they (hardware company for WiFi) will add some tracking with an update but who knows. There is this long presentation about mobile phones. Very interesting I thought. https://2019.linux.conf.au/schedule/presentation/115/ video link all the way down.

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
4
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24d

IMO, for a balance between usability and privacy, most Android phone with the ability to unlock the bootloader and has good AOSP ROM support will be a good choice. /e/ OS seems like a good un-Googled choice for most phones, unless you have a Pixel:

Pixel with GrapheneOS will be more security focused and is generally considered the best choice security wise among new Android phones. Caveat is that Graphene takes a fair chunk of your performance and trades it for software hardening, and more importantly, you’re giving money straight to Google.

Other options include pure Linux phones, like the Pinephone or the Librem, but those are effectively still in alpha, so expect little in the way of app choices and an unstable OS.

You could take a look at my smartphone guide for brand suggestions as well as setting them up. https://lemmy.ml/post/54596

poVoq
325d

Maybe a Volla Phone with Ubuntu Touch preinstalled?

ugh... lo!
21M

The GrapheneOS is the only good security solution on phones right now, so check their website for supported models.

Some time ago I bought Pixel 3XL (used, not new) for pretty good price, so I suppose your budget is OK for that

That is bollocks. Security!= privacy

And you have to deal with Google’s extra proprietary security hardware, unaudited and unverifiable. Having faith in Google’s promise of their proprietary closed source chip being clean is like having faith in cyanide not killing a person.

If it is conspiracy to believe in Google being an evil company with backdooring intent, then it is a worse conspiracy to promote Google as a safe company for privacy and anonymity, by conflating those terms with security.

ugh... lo!
225d

Privacy can be controlled on application level, but there are a lot of system stuff that user can’t change and the best solution for system is GrapheneOS in terms of security, as I said in first comment.

Google is evil, no question about that, but Google is just a brand / label on the phone. Ironically, but most secure and privacy-friendly phone is Google Pixel without Google

As for privacy, any phone capable of running lineageos is fine, but lacks security

Google Pixel without Google

has Google’s proprietary hardware

I am sure you make sense. And yeah security does not work that way. Has GrapheneOS been audited by anyone yet? Pwn2Own? Any other BlackHat event?

ugh... lo!
025d

OK, has any xiaomi phone audited by anybody?

What about proprietary hardware of all other vendors?

I’m not trying to say that pixel is perfect or something, I think whole mobile market is a proprietary shit, tbh. But you need phone anyway, so IMT just trying to tell that pixel smells less that xiaomi, Asus or anything else

@TheAnonymouseJoker
0
edit-2
25d

Pixel smells less than

Are you implying that American brands are somehow better than Taiwanese or Chinese or rest of world brands? Is this some kind of blind USA cultism? Despite the fact that Google AI was directly involved in bombings in Yemen, it smells less bad than Xiaomi or other brands?

Forgot to address your “muh all phones have proprietary hardware” argument. All phones have one less proprietary hardware layer to deal with. Google adds that compared to other OEMs. Lesser the proprietary “security” components, lesser the attack surface, more the security.

ugh... lo!
324d

I’m not from USA and “cultism” is not for me, I’m enthusiast of open source and don’t trust proprietary software and hardware. Sadly, but there is no 100% hardware ready for end-users, so I’m just trying to find a balance.

Btw, any device has proprietary “security” components, so it’s all about “smells less”, not " trusted one".

My own opinion - GrapheneOS is good one, using it on Pixel devices is a trade-off.

Anyway, that thread comes to holywar and I don’t want to take part in it, my arguments and thoughts you can find in comments above, if you disagree with them - OK, I’m fine with it. Just shared my thoughts

It is a fundamentally wrong argument when it is said that other device hardware has not been audited, because if one were to avoid proprietary components, the lesser of them existed in the memory and security domains, the better it would be for reduxing attack surface.

Look at Intel ME, Apple T2 or Qualcomm Snapdragon’s Hexagon DSP flaws.

@Gwynne
creator
1
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22d

deleted by creator

@TheAnonymouseJoker
2
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25d

Fairphone, Xiaomi, Asus, Motorola (if in USA). Xiaomi has the best community support if you pick a popular model, Fairphone provides 5 or so years of Android version upgrades with high repairability and some modularity. Asus and Moto are clean slates, although Asus is the least desirable of the above now.

Do not fall for the GrapheneOS meme. The developers and its community is made up of absolutely garbage people (not even going into the racist aspects), but if you asked them the simplest of questions that would come off as criticism, or requires hard effort to solve problem, they will kick you out of their Matrix rooms immediately. The post installation support sucks balls. And of course if you wanted to use apps that need Google Services Framework (NOT Google Play Services), good luck because they do not work.

Maybe you could use CalyxOS, or LineageOS, way better choices with way more humble and supportive people.

ugh... lo!
225d

I can agree on Fairphone, but all other vendors… Are you joking?

No, and I would not trust GrapheneOS solely because its dev somehow only trusts Google. Ask him why (I did) and https://teddit.net/r/privacytoolsIO/comments/gs4uv7/i_dont_fully_trust_grapheneos/fs82fdv/

Also, if technical support for a custom firmware does not exist post installation, it ID abandonware. GrapheneOS for most people is usually abandonware, considering the kind of nut Daniel Micay is.

@slippoint
1
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25d

The Graphene group account actually gave some good replies to that thread - you just don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The dev doesn’t solely trust Google just because - as they’ve stated many times - there just aren’t good alternative phones with decent security baselines.

I’m not even sure what you mean by “technical support for custom firmware” - Graphene pushes firmware updates with their OTAs.

@ajz
4
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24d

The OP asked about privacy, now this thread is going into the direction of claiming that GrapheneOS is the only choice, because of its focus on security, but requiring Google hardware. I believe the OP should have a free choice to decide on sustainability and repair options (Most new phones have a fixed battery. Fairphone shines in this area) and privacy and security, as well as what fits within their budget.

@slippoint
124d

Well, one of my friends owns a Fairphone, and they told me that the worst thing about it is that Android updates take a age to be released: https://forum.fairphone.com/t/android-11-has-arrived-when-will-we-see-it-on-our-3s-and-3-s/64273/6

Whereas I had Android 11 on my graphene phone a few weeks after it was released by Google.

Jama
124d

IMHO, until the actual version is supported and security updates are on par, there is absolutely no reasons to rush a major update (or even release it, actually). I will be more than happy to stay on a stable version for a longer time and having a phone actually supported for more than a blink, instead of a phone who bring one major update and kill support after 2 weeks.

@ajz
124d

Okay. Luckily there is also LineageOS and Ubuntu Touch for Fairphone ;)

@TheAnonymouseJoker
1
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24d

Almost every single phone recommendation or custom ROM thread on just about all privacy communities on the internet is derailed like this by GrapheneOS users and sockpuppets. They have a very clear, defined way of spreading propaganda from their Matrix, IRC and Telegram groups. And they are slowly, gradually going private so it becomes hard for people to notice the stuff they do.

spoiler

@ajz
124d

That’s a sad story to hear :( Does GrapheneOS also deal with the hardware firmware for things like WiFi ? Because pushing people to buy Google only hardware sounds like an unpleasant idea to me. And then again, if you work for a company with high profile security level then it could make sense to use GrapheneOS or the one by that company in Finland (can’t find the name now, nascuno ?). But for a regular home user like myself and maybe the OP a phone with LineageOS looks fine to me. Having said that I look forward to a more sustainable planet with less phones going to the garbage waste because of the fixed battery and no more OS updates support.

It does not deal with it. There is only memory hardening, majorly. And while I can agree that GrapheneOS is secure and even private as a ROM, its controversial single device lineup support as well as the toxic and unhelpful community behind it is quite bad for most users who obviously do not know the issues and quirks with the no microG or GSF apps working, and the lack of OPSEC and misleading 101 teachings in their community for new users.

CalyxOS is way better for a “security” ROM, although I still stand with best security practices coming from firewalling, app permissions that can also inhibit the intent issues with apps, and basic strong user security practices applied in daily life. So LineageOS will work just as well.

There exists no evidence that somehow LineageOS or CalyxOS or Resurrection Remix users get hacked more than GrapheneOS users.

The other ROM is Copperhead. Honestly, avoiding it is better since Daniel Micay destroyed the verification keys for the ROM before he left Copperhead company.

spoiler for GrapheneOS lovers

Copperhead CEO Donaldson once contacted me to “team up” against Micay, an offer which I stalled and ghosted him because I do not like to do such nasty things, even though Micay has called me a concern troll like the idiot he is.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
0
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24d

Technical support also means if somebody asks questions on their subreddit, Matrix rooms or Telegram groups, they do not get bashed or banned for “targeted harassment” and “concern trolling”. https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=Dx7CZ-2Bajg

You are the one trolling people with GrapheneOS security theater here.

Funny how you instantly recognised the “group account”, when it is run by Micay himself. It has been very evident between u/DanielMicay, u/GrapheneOS, u/madaidan and all such accounts how they operate.

@slippoint
1
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24d

Funny how you instantly recognised the “group account”, when it is run by Micay himself

I think it’s reasonable to presume that the founder of GrapheneOS would own the official GrapheneOS account on reddit. You’re the one that literally linked us to the discussion, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this.

literally linked us

Are you Daniel Micay or his friend? Are you on GrapheneOS team?

@slippoint
1
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24d

Nope, just a Graphene user, and in case it wasn’t clear to you; I meant “linked us” as in you put a hyperlink into this Lemmy thread to give to us.

That is fine, I guess. I am often skeptical of that community considering the things that have been attempted at me and many people.

@Gwynne
creator
2
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22d

deleted by creator

Pick a Fairphone, Xiaomi or Moto (check popular models on XDA for latter two). You can manage permissions, firewall apps off internet and install suspicious apps less, and you will have plenty security.

If you want to increase your security further, make use of the Private Lock app on F-Droid, which instantly locks your phone based on accelerometer sensitivity you set, in case of someone snatching your phone.

If you want to increase further security, learn OPSEC. https://lemmy.ml/post/34223 Do not get memed thinking this ROM with negligible post installation support can magically solve your privacy, security and anonymity woes.

Security does not work like GrapheneOS maker thinks. Memory hardening and forced no GAPPS/microG sounds good from afar but what these people get memed into is called security theater, often an insecurity GrapheneOS users project onto others. There are multiple facets to privacy and anonymity as well, but I am not sure most of their userbase can even differentiate between the 3 terms now.

@Gwynne
creator
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@TheAnonymouseJoker
1
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24d

Chinese phone has American hardware and Chinese software, the latter which you will remove. Will you be able to get rid of the greater hardware threat? This is a game these people will trap you into.

I suggest getting familiar with OPSEC and educating yourselves with 101 security and privacy instead of playing into this geopolitics, contemporary xenophobia and security theater.

@Gwynne
creator
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@TheAnonymouseJoker
2
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24d

My personal threat model is avoiding 14 Eyes surveillance, so I use Huawei P30 Lite, as I noted in my smartphone guide (link I shared in a parent comment).

Huawei’s hardware according to BlackHat Pwn2Own 2017-2020, has been largely safe on par with “secure” Pixels. See page 5 of PDF for phonemaker brands. https://github.com/secmob/TiYunZong-An-Exploit-Chain-to-Remotely-Root-Modern-Android-Devices/raw/master/us-20-Gong-TiYunZong-An-Exploit-Chain-to-Remotely-Root-Modern-Android-Devices.pdf

I have de-corporation-ified it and the closed source apps WhatsApp and Discord are sandboxed into Work Profile. All other apps I use are FOSS, and the whole phone is tunneled through NetGuard with 1.3M HOSTS rules blocking. Android/AOSP’s VPN Lockdown feature stays on to prevent any traffic leakage.

For VPN, I am part of Riseup Collective so I use that.

This is not a comment to tell you that you should use Huawei, just an answer to your first question. As for your query here…

I suggest going through my OPSEC and smartphone guides so that you can formulate your own threat model and enjoy a secure, private life without falling for FUD.

@slippoint
-125d

Ignore them, they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about.

For what its worth, been using graphene for two months now on a pixel 5 and I’m still amazed by how well it works. Can only second this path as someone who is really focused on privacy and security. There are a few inconveniences (updates, app availability, gpush services etc) but those are all very worth it for me to sacrifice in order to be secure and private. I don’t think you’ll regret. Tons of second hand (new) phones on the market where I come from so should be easy to get going

@Gwynne
creator
1
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@slippoint
4
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25d

You can say that for absolutely any phone/device in existence. As for Graphene, I’ve ran tcpdump on my router for a week against the device’s IP and confirmed that it only talks to the documented default connections on their site.

@Gwynne
creator
1
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22d

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@slippoint
225d

Yes, Graphene is only officially supported on Pixels at this time.

@Gwynne
creator
1
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@linkert
425d

I run GrapheneOS on a Google Pixel 3 (secondhand). It’s a nice phone - made sure to extract the GCamera app in order to keep the camera app that actually works to the cameras full potential.

Other than that I just want to express my red hot hatred for all established mobile OSes. Its all crapware.

@slippoint
225d

I have a 4a, which is supported until fall 2023. The newer 5 model doesn’t give you much more time.

@Gwynne
creator
1
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Jama
225d

It’s not an easy solution. GrapheneOS is really good, but you need to be sure you will not need Google service and NEITHER MicroG, because those aren’t supported by GrapheneOS

@Gwynne
creator
2
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Jama
225d

I don’t need any Google apps, and luckily I don’t need WhatsApp either, but some apps I use (like my goddamn bank) need Google services, and for this I rely on MicroG

A Pixel 3 and above running GrapheneOS is probably the most secure available https://grapheneos.org/faq

reading the comments, there’s definitely some GrapheneOS hate based on the developers behavior mostly, IMO whether or not the dev is an asshole doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid ROM, just like i don’t agree with Lemmy admins politics (me being an anarchist) i can still recognize this is a valuable platform worthy of support.

One criticism is that GrapheneOS only supports the Pixel line, these phones are google and have shitty screens, no headphone jacks and only one i know has an SD card slot, that’s my main issue, on the idea of ‘google hardware’ being evil, it’s possible there are hardware backdoors similar to ME, this is true of pretty much any phone.

Another criticism is that Graphene doesn’t support any kind of GAPPs, personally this is a plus for me, GAPPs, even MicroG present a huge privacy risk, but some people need GAPPs for whatever reason, an alternative security focused OS that does suppor GAPPs is CalyxOS https://calyxos.org

LineageOS is usually my Go To as it supports a wide variety of phones, but there are issues depending on model, as many devices are marked ‘officially supported’ when they are still very unstable or sparsely maintained, LineageOS doesn’t generally get the same kernel patches and necessary security updates that GrapheneOS/CalyxOS does, so these two are preferable if security/privacy are high priority. If you just want a googless phone with reasonable security/privacy, especially if you have an old phone you’d like to breath new life into. Lineage will probably be fine.

https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

Antonama
024d

I have a pixel 4 running linegage. Its one of the most secure you can get

@copacetic
024d

I just bought a used iPhone SE 2020 for 300€. The screen of my old Pixel 2 broke and its support ran out recently. Still a great phone otherwise. As a long-term Android user I miss a few things like SyncThing on iOS. However, with a strong focus on privacy, I’d say iOS wins over Android.

If you mean privacy marketing, yes iOS wins over Android. For privacy, security and freedom (by extension anonymity), Android is infinitely superior to iOS in every measure.

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
224d

For privacy, security and freedom (by extension anonymity), Android is infinitely superior to iOS in every measure.

If you install a de-Googled ROM, which you should.

De-corped ROM is definitely superior, but the smartphone guide does well for non root phones almost just as well, from my experience with custom ROMs. Either should be done by all users for a libre pro privacy culture.

@ajz
324d

Choosing iOS means voluntary imprisonment in my view. And Apple pretends to be privacy friendly but I doubt it is really true. For example Apple will phone home, except perhaps less than a default Android phone does. At least with Android phones you can buy models that have LineageOS or Ubuntu Touch support for much more privacy than Apple can promise.

@copacetic
324d

I’m thinking in incentives a lot.

  • Apple wins if I buy more Apple stuff, so they are incentivized to pull me into their ecosystem. This means they will neglect integration with non-Apple services.
  • Google wins if I click on more ads, so they are incentivized to show me more desirable ads. Getting private data is crucial for this.

If you are willing to go through the hassle of flashing your own OS, then buying Android hardware is the way. However, if you just want to buy something that works out of the box as much as possible, then Apple wins the privacy aspect in my opinion.

@ajz
223d

That is an interesting take. I would like to add that it is possible to buy new “degoogled” pre-installed Android phones (e.g. /e/ and Volla).

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
3
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24d

Also, Apple will just decide one day that your phone is no longer worthy and you won’t be able to install or update any apps. People rag on Android for having crappy long-term support, which is still fair IMO, but they seem to ignore the fact that really old Android devices can still run a lot of the newer apps, and alternative ROMs/PostMarket OS can provide an up to date OS well after official support ends.

Apple phones home more or less similarly since they collect more info than Google, as opposed to the pro Apple propaganda spread by manipulators. https://teddit.net/r/privatelife/comments/mh9gt3/pdf_mobile_handset_privacy_measuring_the_data_ios/

Jama
324d

Don’t trust Apple marketing

@Gwynne
creator
3
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22d

deleted by creator

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

  • Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
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  • If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
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