del
trash
13

I’d delineate between emergency revolutionary tribunals in the initial stages of revolution and the more long term judicial system that will eventually settle into position once the revolution has been more firmly secured.

The first and foremost concern of a revolutionary tribunal is it’s ability to quickly and effectively carry out criminal proceedings against counter-revolutionaries. This is an important logistical matter; does the nascent socialist state possess the facilities and materials to incarcerate all its counter-revolutionary enemies? Does it command the necessary surplus of loyal manpower, enough to ensure these facilities can humanely and sustainably attend to the daily task of feeding, washing and engaging these traitors? Can the revolutionary government spare the considerable resources necessary to re-educate potentially tens of thousands of reactionary enemies, or else imprison them on a long term basis? Can all this be done in tandem with the other pressing tasks of an almost certainly chaotic time where you’ll simultaneously need to prepare the armed forces for imperialist invasion from abroad, while also beginning to juggle the internal problems facing the nation such as building secure housing, ensuring national food security, reforming education and training, investigating internal state security, cultivating a proletarian civil service, developing public works infrastructure programs etc? You will only have so much in the ways of material resources and a talent pool with which to tackle these problems, which will all likely be paralysed by the confusion brought on by the revolution.

Once the uncertain early phase of revolution has been resolved it would make sense to try and develop sufficient capacity in the criminal justice system to consider the abolition of the death penalty so criminals can instead be engaged with on the basis of reform and reintegration. However, in the context of the immediate chaos of a revolution, where you do not really know the actual extent of the counter-revolutionary forces arrayed against you, it is far more safe and expedient to execute enemies whenever it is politically permissible to do so. The operative term there being “Whenever politically permissible”. Executing suspects on a flimsy basis only for it to later emerge they were innocent is counterproductive in terms of outcomes, it undermines the legitimacy of the court process that the socialist state is depending on to eliminate it’s immediate political threats. Therefore it still has to operate on an open basis and be flexible enough in it’s rulings to allow for a stay of execution in cases that would have a high chance of alienating the masses. In other words, the revolutionary tribunals have to become an expression of popular will.

Exactly this. Death penalty can be acceptable, as long as the people support the decision. And knowing the will of the people is really one of the main tasks of any communist in my opinion.

I agree with your sentiment, but I worry that sometimes outrage can lead to quick demand for death penalty, and this could inhibit justice. For example, in a heinous crime (child abuse or torture) a suspect may not get a fair trial when there is (understandable) outrage and demand for punishment and suspect may be wrong person

I can’t speak for communism since I haven’t thought about it much. I can speak for the short term after a revolutionary takeover though. For imperialist war hawks absolutely, preferably by hanging upside down. Personally I also wish to see heads on spikes but I understand not encouraging such impulses.

Life in prison is worse. I believe the death penalty to be pointless.

Why the criminals have to suffer?

It’s a criminal justice system. It’s insufficient merely to isolate criminals from society for society’s safety, it is also necessary to mete out justice for the victims. This is a core component of the justice system’s function, without which it doesn’t command legitimacy from the people.

Punitive “justice” is shit, if you truly believe in it you need to re-evaluate your position. There is no justice in revenge.

I suppose you’d extend your definition of “justice” to the Nazis sentenced to hang at Nuremburg? Would you have liked everyone to have gotten off lightly like Speer did?

Absolutely, yeah, I extend this to Nazis. You’re not gonna catch me shedding any tears over dead nazis, but executing prisoners in the name of revenge is still the wrong choice. Imprisonment and execution should be done pragmatically, not to satisfy one’s bloodlust. People should be imprisoned if they would otherwise be likely to harm innocent people. They should be executed if the former is true, and imprisonment is simply not an option. People should be released from whatever imprisonment they are in at the very moment it can be reasonably believed that they no longer pose a threat to innocent people. Any time someone spends in prison should be dedicated to, as efficiently as possible, rehabilitating them so that they will stop being a threat to innocent people as soon as possible.

True injustice is wasting time, energy, and resources which could be used to help people in the name of revenge.

Well said! Even worse, in the USA, imprisonment is a form of slave labor for people of color and poor whites. Companies can profit from using prisoners to work for pennies an hour, not to mention that the wages prisoners earn may be needed to be spent on basic necessities that they are denied, and lastly, prisoners do not have labor rights that other workers do. Revenge and exploitation are the key components of many forms of the injustice system

deleted by creator

Muad'Dibber
mod
96M

Agree. In peace-time, there’s no reason to have it.

Unfortunately I don’t have a PDF of this book, but in Fidel’s autobiography, he talks about the difficulties associated with their attempts to get rid of the death penalty in Cuba, mainly due to popular support for it. The party is for abolishing it, but the people lag a bit behind, and the referendums they’ve had for abolishing it have all failed so far. Its a case where sometimes people hold outdated views on things but must be educated on why its a bad idea.

Bilb!
26M

This is exactly how I feel. Even one execution as a result of a wrongful conviction is unacceptable.

Discussion Community for fellow Marxist-Leninists and other Marxists.

Rules for /c/communism

Rules that visitors must follow to participate. May be used as reasons to report or ban.

  1. No non-marxists

This subreddit is here to facilitate discussion between marxists.

There are other communities aimed at helping along new communists. This community isn’t here to convert naysayers to marxism.

If you are a member of the police, armed forces, or any other part of the repressive state apparatus of capitalist nations, you will be banned.

  1. No oppressive language

Do not attempt to justify your use of oppressive language.

Doing this will almost assuredly result in a ban. Accept the criticism in a principled manner, edit your post or comment accordingly, and move on, learning from your mistake.

We believe that speech, like everything else, has a class character, and that some speech can be oppressive. This is why speech that is patriarchal, white supremacist, cissupremacist, homophobic, ableist, or otherwise oppressive is banned.

TERF is not a slur.

  1. No low quality or off-topic posts

Posts that are low-effort or otherwise irrelevant will be removed.

This is not a place to engage in meta-drama or discuss random reactionaries on lemmy or anywhere else.

This includes memes and circlejerking.

This includes most images, such as random books or memorabilia you found.

We ask that amerikan posters refrain from posting about US bourgeois politics. The rest of the world really doesn’t care that much.

  1. No basic questions about marxism

Posts asking entry-level questions will be removed.

Questions like “What is Maoism?” or “Why do Stalinists believe what they do?” will be removed, as they are not the focus on this forum.

  1. No sectarianism

Marxists of all tendencies are welcome here.

Refrain from sectarianism, defined here as unprincipled criticism. Posts trash-talking a certain tendency or marxist figure will be removed. Circlejerking, throwing insults around, and other pettiness is unacceptable.

If criticisms must be made, make them in a principled manner, applying Marxist analysis.

The goal of this subreddit is the accretion of theory and knowledge and the promotion of quality discussion and criticism.

Check out ProleWiki for a communist wikipedia.

bottombanner

  • 0 users online
  • 21 users / day
  • 38 users / week
  • 71 users / month
  • 212 users / 6 months
  • 151 subscribers
  • 523 Posts
  • 1619 Comments
  • Modlog