• ☭CommieWolf☆
    link
    fedilink
    262 years ago

    Around the 4th of July the Patsoc discussion sort of reached its peak, and we lost a lot of people who defended the likes of Caleb Maupin and other more reactionary trends in the American left. Rafael and Saddam were among those.

            • DankZedong
              link
              fedilink
              21
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              Yeah it’s a shame. I had otherwise good interactions with people banned that day, but the thread was a mess. I just hope they manage to review and adjust their views.

            • ButtigiegMineralMap
              link
              fedilink
              162 years ago

              I had a few minor disagreements with him, mostly good interactions, every once in a while I was vaguely offput by the Baathist love bc the baathists were not cool w the idea of communism and Saddam (yea I know Anti-imperialism is better than licking the boot, but Qaddafi was anti-imperialist and way more based) was not Fuckin cool, not someone to look up to. And ultimately when I saw the posts leading to their ban, I was disgusted by the Faux-Marxism displayed. To paraphrase they said Since DialMat means everything develops and nothing is guaranteed or static, we can disregard the labor aristocracy in relation to Israel and Palestine because it will eventually break off anyways. I believe they had said that Palestinians and Israeli proletarians had common goals(which is not true really) which meant a 2 state solution is fine and that PatSoc Israelis are real communists and that Palestinians shouldn’t be against a Socialist Israel. That whole thing stunk to high heavens of a basic misunderstanding of settler colonialism and Israel’s history of expansion and oppression against West Asians and made me happy to see the ban

              • @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                162 years ago

                Yeah, i am usually willing to overlook a lot and give comrades time to learn and correct their views on most things, but the issue of Palestinian liberation that to me is non-negotiable for a ML.

                It’s really not ambiguous in the slightest and there is no excuse at this point for still defending the existence of the settler colonial occupation regime. This goes beyond just patsoc cringe.

                • ButtigiegMineralMap
                  link
                  fedilink
                  152 years ago

                  Yea I completely agree. In Ireland there are plenty of liberals and average people that are very pro-Palestine because even though the situation is different, they recognize the Imperialist struggle and oppression. Even as a kid with Irish-American family I was vaguely pro-Palestine and with more conversation I became more and more sympathetic.

                • These people could still be comrades, but their reactionary views should be harshly criticized. Stalin surely had some bad takes by today’s standards, but we need to consider his environment to contextualize those views; it’s not reasonable to be anti-abortion with the information available today (not that it was “reasonable” then – I’m not sure what word to use, but I hope I’m being decently clear). IMO, this isn’t as clear-cut as with, for example, slave owners – slavery should always have been clearly abhorrent, whereas I can kind of understand being anti-abortion at the time if one’s views on the subject had never been challenged

            • @i_must_destroy@lemmygrad.ml
              link
              fedilink
              7
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              Saddam was a mixed bag. I had some interesting interactions with him but sometimes he was very aggressive. He was calling people here idiots at one point, which I don’t agree with. Most people here are respectful to each other.

          • @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
            cake
            link
            fedilink
            102 years ago

            It was much more complicated than this, read my posts in that thread for at least partial explanation of a problem.

            Sad to see that two good comrades were banned over such convoluted mess despite explanations, but i guess we can’t have this discussion anywhere near US dominated spaces.

              • AdvancedAktion
                link
                fedilink
                10
                edit-2
                2 years ago

                The problem with him was he was very persuasive and able to justify his argument. He is definitely knowledgeable, but he always tried to smuggle right deviant ideas. I’m definitely sure he is threading a fine line, and hidding his true intentions and convictions. And he is not a nobody like me, he was a mod in r/EuropeanSocialists. The direction it is heading, the way he is trying to steer conversations in here all made him a sus character.

              • @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
                cake
                link
                fedilink
                5
                edit-2
                2 years ago

                Well this isn’t by any means untrue, even got upvoted. Question is, will this happen before Israel gets destroyed by either Palestinians or by outside Arab countries. And if this happens, what then?

  • @CamaradaD@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    232 years ago

    I hope they manage to rethink some of their views and appeal to it. I had nothing but decent interactions with both, even though there were rather concerning comments in a few threads.

    I believe people aren’t perfect, but I’m all for giving people a second chance, if they’re willing to better themselves.

    • ButtigiegMineralMap
      link
      fedilink
      162 years ago

      Definitely, especially since they’re at least on the right trajectory, being on lemmygrad and all. Lord knows I’ve evolved from first being on here, I didn’t read as much theory when I first joined, that’s for sure, now I have a whole long reading list

  • Ratette (she/her)
    link
    fedilink
    23
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    Because they defended dickheads and a reactionary chauvinistic ideology that sees marginalised individuals as “inconvenient” and was shown the lemmygrad wall.