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@BlackLotus
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Because this place is based and people here can read. Illiteracy is the best weapon of anti-communists because if people can’t read, they often can’t educate themselves that communism is the obviously better system.

@goosefetisch
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I’m an anarcho-syndicalist (or maybe an anarcho-communist, who cares), and I came to a very, very, very anti-authorotarian mindset not because of “illiteracy” but because I read anarchist literature regarding authority, fascism and also read news regarding china (and how every month or so they are bound to do something draconian).

Also, here’s an unrelated link to a communist country that executed teachers and only taught very basic literacy.

@BlackLotus
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No one considers Pol Pot a communist, but go hard at revealing your obviously propagandized mind.

@goosefetisch
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In any case, He certainly had a strong relationship with China.

Many claimed he deviated from orthodox Marxism–Leninism, but China backed his government as a bulwark against Soviet influence in Southeast Asia.

Feel free to have a skim through the Wikipedia article yourself.

Muad'Dibber
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You realize also that socialist Vietnam fought a war against Pol Pot right?

In any case, He certainly had a strong relationship with China.

How does this prove Pol Pot was a communist though?

@goosefetisch
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It doesn’t, but it proves that communists are willing to work with whatever the fuck he was.

It proves China at the time had this particular diplomatic tie with Cambodia. Nothing more, nothing less. You’re extrapolating a single event in history to tie into a narrative – any academic historian doing that would be asked for their credentials.

But I don’t blame you for this, because the history of communism is the only place where this is not only regularly done in an academic setting, but encouraged. And you would be considered a revisionist if you offered any other alternative even when supported by facts (such as the opening of the USSR records).

After the fledgling PRC entered a war (more of a border skirmish) with Vietnam because of Cambodia, they realised it was the wrong path to sign defensive pacts with everyone. They radically changed their position and to this day refuse to sign defensive pacts with any other country.

@goosefetisch
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Fair enough, I shouldn’t extrapolate - my bad.

But at the very least it proves how easy it is for the meaning of “communist” to be twisted. Even the Nazi’s called themselves “national socialists” not because they had any remotely socialist policies but because it was popular. Anyone can start and lead a “communist” revolution and then pull a switchreoo at the last moment, and because communism typically involves a “dictatorship of the proletariat” this is exceedingly easy to do.

To talk further on the topic of education, I agree that communism is probably too underrepresented - but so is anarchism. People tended to loose interest with the communist manifesto after the gulags started; the only people who supported state communism post 1950’s was powergrabbing revolutionaries, and uneducated workers who were smart enough to see its advantages but not enough to see its immense drawbacks.

That’s why we study those systems. We (marxists) didn’t come to realise the nazis were not socialists out of nowhere, we saw what they said about their ideology, how they conducted it, what their class character was for society (the most important criteria), etc.

That’s why we uphold the USSR, the PRC, the DPRK… but not Nazi Germany or Pol Pot’s Cambodia. Because after studying them in and out (through our own framework, as anyone does) we see how they operated and still operate.

People tended to loose interest with the communist manifesto after the gulags started

Only in the imperialist core (the west). During the 20th century, even after Stalin’s death, we saw Cuba, Burkina Faso, Chile, probably others I’m not remembering right now…

This is also the time of the Cold War, where our information in this core was filtered through the “leader of the free world”, the United States. And to this day when you find people that lived through it on this side, they will tell you (I’m not joking) that the United States is a champion of human rights and liberty. Even in Europe.

The gulag system (an acronym for the ministry of justice and corrections) was started under the Tsar so if we want to use them on a chart you won’t have a single data point but many. That’s why I picked Stalin’s death instead.

@goosefetisch
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That’s why we study those systems. We (marxists) didn’t come to realise the nazis were not socialists out of nowhere, we saw what they said about their ideology, how they conducted it, what their class character was for society (the most important criteria), etc.

Right… that makes sense, though in my view it shouldn’t take an expert to spot an overt fascist.

That’s why we uphold the USSR, the PRC, the DPRK… but not Nazi Germany or Pol Pot’s Cambodia. Because after studying them in and out (through our own framework, as anyone does) we see how they operated and still operate.

Hold up, doesn’t the DPRK have forced labour camps? Didn’t they once sentence a western tourist to hard labour for stealing a poster? Again I’m not trying to say the west has never imprisoned people for dumb reasons, but forced labour??? Also China is hardly communist these days, and if I’m frank I feel like they align more closely with 1935 Nazi Germany than any kind of proletariat utopia.

Only in the imperialist core (the west). During the 20th century, even after Stalin’s death, we saw Cuba, Burkina Faso, Chile, probably others I’m not remembering right now…

Agreed, sorry I should have been more clear. Still, I wonder how many of those revolutions weren’t a “yay let’s implement a communist utopia” but instead a “hey lets trick the people into supporting our communist revolution”.

This is also the time of the Cold War, where our information in this core was filtered through the “leader of the free world”, the United States. And to this day when you find people that lived through it on this side, they will tell you (I’m not joking) that the United States is a champion of human rights and liberty. Even in Europe.

Yeah, it’s a little funny how often people will talk about how the US is some kind of gracious bringer of democracy. Maybe it started after their help in WW2?

Still, I think it’s fair to argue that the US is at least no worse than China or Russia.

forced labour

Forced labour has existed and exists in virtually all prison systems to this day. It existed in Makhnovia, it existed in Revolutionary Catalonia too. It’s a historical phenomenon and while it does offend our modern sensibilities for various (correct) reasons, it’s a more complicated topic than it appears.

But I wouldn’t call them forced labour camps. What is the difference between a camp and a prison? I highly recommend this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8E.

Maybe it started after their help in WW2?

During WW2, a ceasefire of sorts was declared from the US and their European, imperialist allies towards the Soviet Union.

It’s well known that the European powers hated the USSR ever since the October Revolution, and so they expected to let Hitler fight against them. This would weaken both countries and Europe expected they could just swoop in and finally destroy both.

This is not what happened obviously, as Hitler went west first, and the USSR fought Germany on their own.

During the war, you would see propaganda posters like these :

And yet right after the war, communications “broke down” between the two countries? No, the United States never hid who they were. This truce with the Soviet Union was merely temporary and enacted for various reasons. What we call the Cold War was effectively just the revival of anti-communist tensions that started in 1917.

The USA then started lending public money to European countries for rebuilding, known as the Marshall Program. The catch was that this money could only be used to buy American. And the USSR was not allowed to receive this help or any help.

This is how the United States finally brought itself to the status of superpower and was able to dictate history, policy, and diplomacy. That’s why some people today are feeling grateful to the USA (despite not living there or having ever lived there) and they don’t really even know why.

I think it’s fair to argue that the US is at least no worse than China or Russia.

Even if everything we heard about Russia and China was absolutely true, if the death tolls were true, if the atrocity propaganda was true, if the human rights violation were all true, and even if we only counted the crimes of the US from the time the PRC has existed (and not for the whole 276 years of the USA), the US would still rack up a higher death and crime toll than both China and Russia combined.

Catraism-Stalinism
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1935 Nazi Germany

you can hate china, but doing this is just asking to be wrong

krolden
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As a fellow syndicalist, stop with posts like this. They do no good for anyone and just gain traction because tankies love dunking on anarchists, especially when most of your points are half baked at best. Life in China is better under the CCP but no I still don’t like them or NATO powers strangling the planet.

Catraism-Stalinism
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I’m an anarcho-syndicalist

you know, this is starting to make a lot of sense

Not only has the NATO been expanding eastwards, it also invaded and destroyed multiple countries during that time in wars of aggression. Yugoslavia, Syria, and Libya being prime examples. NATO is also currently backing a literal genocide in Yemen.

The collapse of USSR was absolutely a disaster, and the quality of life in the vast majority of post Soviet republics never recovered to the standard of living people had during USSR. Not only that, but collapse USSR led to instability across Eurasia and many consequent wars with countless people dying. Anybody arguing that the collapse of USSR was anything but a disaster is utterly historically illiterate. Here’s just one example for you:

Heart diseases account for 56.7% of total deaths, with about 30% involving people still of working age. Mortality among Russian men rose by 60% since 1991, four to five times higher than in Europe.

and here’s what people who actually lived in USSR have to say:

Taiwan is part of China. This is a well documented fact, and Taiwan’s legal standing is not in question. This is the position held by the UN, and it’s the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed.

The whole narrative of China oppressing Uyghurs has little basis and in fact standard of living in Xinjiang has been steadily improving. All the evidence for these supposed concentration camps comes from a religious fanatic by the name of Adrian Zenz who is not in any way credible source on anything.

The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.”

The reality of China is that China hasn’t been at war for past 70 years, and that quality of life in China continues to steadily improve and the government is actively working on doing things like eliminating poverty, creating public infrastructure, providing healthcare, housing, food, and education for all citizens. Chinese government practically eliminated poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade.

90% of families in the country own their home, giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. Social mobility happens to be very high in China as well.

Marxism-Fennekinism
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  1. It’s called the CPC.

  2. A lot of us support both, yes. Resources on both why that is and debunks to pretty much everything you’ve mentioned is littered all over this instance. Probably seen this link getting dropped?

  3. Dude, it’s the fediverse. Use another instance that better suits your worldview if you’re this bothered by the politics here, don’t try to shame and change the existing userbase of an instance for having different political opinions as you. That’s the whole damn point of Lemmy!

Catraism-Stalinism
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like seriously, I am tired of literally saying the same like 5 things all the goddamn time.

What sort of content would you like to see?

Catraism-Stalinism
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anything that shows class consciousness. Asking for you to avoid political talks for the past 100 years would be disingenuous.

@graphito
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Dude, it’s the fediverse. Use another instance that better suits your worldview if you’re this bothered by the opinions here, don’t try to shame and change the existing userbase of an instance for having different political opinions as you.

I’m sorry to chime in but isn’t lemmygrad supposed to be the instance for communists?

Lemmy.ml is also explicitly leftist. Look at the page title on the homepage. And no it’s not the default instance, there isn’t one. If you want centrist or right wing, there are other instances.

Really the problem is you don’t want to acknowledge the difference between diverging political views and agressiveness/insults/fanaticism.

You never say anything when people of your “political opinion” insult others, or call for brigading. So you let the harrasment and sealioning go on and seem happy with that. Maybe do something about it before complaining that other people complain here ?

This might surprise you but:

  • USSR = good
  • Western bloc = bad

Also, no, both sides not bad. One side good. One side bad. USSR good.

Because we do. Nice to have a break from the boring western standard and all its brain worms.

You alone are proof that re-education is going to be necessary during or after the revolution

RedFortress
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Are we allowing posts like these now?

Fr this is just an anticommunist gish gallop

Three letter agencies have infiltrated lemmy already. The battle to prevail would be glorious comrades 🔥🖤

Amicese
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Worst mistake of my life reading this post…

@Stoned_Ape
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using the Mercator projection to argue how Russia is bigger than Ukraine.

Stopped reading right there. Either troll or idiot.

What does that even mean? What does that have to do with fucking anything?

@Stoned_Ape
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Mercator is a kind of a map projection. It can skew the visual representation of the actual size of a country. Northern/southern regions appear stretched, while equatorial regions appear comparatively smaller. For example, the continent Africa is way bigger than this map projection suggest. Also, the nothern parts of Russia are stretched, so Russia is smaller than it appears.

Still, Russia is 28 times bigger in actual square kilometers. 28 fucking times.

Thinking about this… if you know about the mercator projection (which the user at least now of, and what it means), I’m quite sure you’re not dumb enough to not realize that Russia is 28 times bigger. So, honestly… it’s 100% a troll.

Don’t feed the troll.

Marxism-Fennekinism
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I know. I’ve just never actually seen anyone using map projections as propaganda before (that post they linked to and accused of doing so is the stretch of the century, like, do you expect them to mail you a 3D globe? It’s clear they just pulled the default maps off Wikipedia because convenience.)

I imagine it was done, and would have worked in, like, the 18th century when 90% of the population couldn’t afford to read books, but we’re in the age of the internet when you can just look up the actual fucking land area of any country.

Ding ding ding, found a glowie.

Wow, the CIA sure is pretty fast to get some shills to shit on any communist group bigger than 2000 people.

Glowies are having such a hard time here. They’re so used to being able to just drop some tropes and get a brigade to jump in to defend them. It’s hilarious to watch them actually having to argue their point with people who are educated on the subject.

@graphito
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given Lemmy niche nature so far, it attracts those who was banned elsewhere.

Yes, many extreme posts get dozens of upvotes but on the scale of internet this is nothing. One by one, new users are going to dilute toxic crowd and put them on the backrows where they usually reside.

Catraism-Stalinism
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We are growing at a faster rate than lemmy, have been for months now.

We are the new normal.

Catraism-Stalinism
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Comrades! I comment for the algorithm, may more of us see this insanity and come to our aid!

Catraism-Stalinism
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Because the USSR is the best country ever, and the PRC is the best modern country

@goosefetisch I might be just too sick of russian propaganda, but my only reaction when I read threads you’ve linked was: ban lemmygrad, ban insane commie “fans” and move on. Because when their messages start to be indistinguishable from propaganda, they are lost, and talking to them is just wasting time and nerves

I’m assuming you’re also one to screech about free speech.

@HiddenLayer5 you are free to say whatever you want, I am free to disagree with you or ignore you

ban lemmygrad, ban insane commie “fans” and move on.

you are free to say whatever you want

Umm. You’re contradicting yourself there miss

Catraism-Stalinism
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“fans”

We have fans? Is this guy saying we are the fans? what is going on!

@goosefetisch Look at this https://lemmy.ml/post/417095/comment/251192. This person is lost to humanity if they’re doing it unironically. If it is irony, why bother

Anyone who expresses anything I disagree with is lost to humanity.

@HiddenLayer5 he is literally saying “I want Red Terror to happen again”

Catraism-Stalinism
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I’m half serious, half wanting to post my propaganda posters cause I’m bored.

@blkpws
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Russia and China have no free press, it’s so hard to get bad news around those kinds of countries…

@goosefetisch
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I suppose that’s not really true, because western media is often open to bashing them (similarly networks like RT are more than happy to bash the west). I just wish you could find more criticism about a country coming from that same country, to help eliminate a bias against said country. I feel like the Russian censorship laws massively prevent this, and the Great Firewall of China makes it difficult to get a proper picture of what it is actually like there.

@blkpws
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Capitalism controls big major media sources, but there are independent reporters, and they aren’t beginning persecuted unless it’s something huge like Julian Assange leak. But for small things and articles, western have more rights to protect those journalists. They can talk bad about their own country.

You contradict yourself. Assange is literally being persecuted, Snowden had to flee. Manning was jailed for years.

Either media is free or it’s not, if whistleblowers are being hunted then there is no free media. There cannot be free media anyway, it’s never existed and cannot exist.

They can talk bad about their own country.

Yes, but the point is to change it.

@blkpws
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Well, journalist can make a blog and say Europe and NATO is allowing Turkish to bomb Kurdistan or Iraq, there are a lot of blogs and articles explaining this shit. While you can’t read stuff like this on Russia or China, they need to post those articles anonymously with fewer data.

But the best about Europe/America and Journalism is that the journalist have the right to ask our governments for explanations. On china police can shoot someone and not see it on news, if that happens on America or Europe it will be on news.

Also, we aren’t talking about changing the world, the post asks why there is so much China/Russia support. I say that’s because those countries don’t allow bad news on their own territory, or it’s harder to get them by ways not official at all. I don’t contradict myself, most European and American governments has laws to declassifies confidential documents after X years. This law has important flaws, but at least they provide that to the media and people, Russia and China don’t have this.

The difference is that in Europe/America journalism have freedom to make blogs about what they want to, not about classified documents from government but yes about how racist and aggressive is their police or how bad and damaging are mega-factories or how bad are worker salaries or worker rights. Those small articles about your territory or country about bad things happening around. It’s like privacy on Europe, it’s a right we have, compared to America where police can read any message you are sending, this happens even worse on China and Russia. So the same happens with Journalism rights.

While you can’t read stuff like this on Russia or China

On china police can shoot someone and not see it on news

How do you know any of that for sure?

Police in China never kill anyone, they don’t even carry guns most of the time…

And I assure you Chinese citizens are more politically aware than the average European or American.

In the West we (claim to) use the media as a fourth extension of the state, to keep in checks and balances. But it doesn’t work out. It doesn’t matter what journalists say, nothing changes. George Floyd was killed by police in the US (no need to make up deaths in China to find an example) and even after 2 months of rightful rioting, the same people are in power and the same people on the ground are telling you to vote for the same 2 candidates. Doesn’t matter what journalists publish or say, when the establishment has worked out a way to keep them in check and even in their pocket.

Whereas in China, since we’re on that example, there are avenues to bring out issues officially. China is the biggest consumer of audits and polls in the world by far, they poll everyone about issues all the time.

That’s why their media doesn’t always talk about the same things. But you can go on English-language Chinese media yourself, like CGTN, CCTV, People’s Daily, China Daily and see for yourself what they talk about. You can also go on Weibo and see what they talk about too, I guarantee you it’s not the 1984 hellscape you think it is.

@blkpws
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Police in China never kill anyone, they don’t even carry guns most of the time…

THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, THEY DID, CHINESE POLICE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE. You just can’t read it on news unless you go to an anonymous source that explains you their fight against their authoritative state.

They have all the streets full of cameras, how you expect to not have the same control of the media press and TV and all their internet? You can’t know what are they really doing.

Can you send me the news then?

@blkpws
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It’s bold of you to assume that a video filmed in HK of a cop shooting someone was censored in China and nobody heard about it. That was in fact the one person the police shot in the protests. As they say in the video, he tried to steal the officer’s weapon (not shown in the clip on CBS, it happened earlier). The officer had to answer why he discharged his weapon before a committee as like most civilised countries, police have to log every time they fire a bullet and then defend its use. I seem to remember he was reprimanded for this, but I don’t remember the specifics.

Do you know why the guy in black kept walking towards the cop? Because he thought he wasn’t gonna shoot. He was accustomed to the cops being very passive when aggressed. Do you see people in the US walking up like this to armed cops? No, because if they did, they would get shot to death.

Edit: also the guy in the video survived, so police in China still hasn’t killed anyone.

The other stuff has been debunked thoroughly in other places and is not part of the matter at hand so I’m not gonna reply to it myself. It’s just finding atrocity propaganda to justify intervention against China.

@blkpws
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He was accustomed to the cops being very passive when aggressed.

Look this https://yewtu.be/watch?v=08GDQCiU8uU

Wow police with batons restore order on a crowded subway train without exits because rioters thought they could murder another old man with no consequences. So scary.

You’re just gonna find anything you can to highlight China is a hellhole that needs to be liberated by our democracy bombs, no?

Also my argument was that he did not expect the cop would shoot which is a testament to their self-control in regards to discharging their weapons. Once again you are completely off topic. You are doing the CIA’s job for them.

@blkpws
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You’re just gonna find anything you can to highlight China is a hellhole that needs to be liberated by our democracy bombs, no?

What??

Don’t be foolish, China is not better than other countries. They do mass surveillance, they control all contents, I saw more videos about police killing people, but it was on a Telegram Channel from those protesters accusing China government things. Then I also saw a documentary how china prisons or how they call it “centers of education” are doing whatever they want like if those people were animals.

Capitalist media can lie, but Chinese and Russia media can lie too as all governments do.

Catraism-Stalinism
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THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, THEY DID, CHINESE POLICE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE. You just can’t read it on news unless you go to an anonymous source that explains you their fight against their authoritative state.

but how do you know that. Of course they have, but how do you know they are innocent, do you have evidence?

@goosefetisch
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I agree, but it’s not a binary FREE/CENSORED. As long as you aren’t leaking documents you will often be fine, whereas in China/USSR even speaking bad about the party or using the wrong word for “war” can get you in trouble.

If you agree Western journalists are being persecuted for what they find out however, you should also probably agree that our media lies to us – including about China or the USSR.

@goosefetisch
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Certainly! But just because some of the criticism they receive is biased against them doesn’t mean it is wholly false, and as I previously stated due to the much greater amount of censorship within those countries it is hard to find reliable opinions to the contrary.

Muad'Dibber
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Oatsteak
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This entire thread in a nutshell

Muad'Dibber
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Western media is completely controlled.

Six companies control all media.

A swiss study on media / news concentration and western propanda.

Lenin on this:

Some more capitalist monopolies:

https://imgur.com/a/xgnEp

@blkpws
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Well, dictatorship states (also communist states) neither have free press and means exactly the same as your picture.

Catraism-Stalinism
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no one has free press, we just do away with the bullshit pretense

@blkpws
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You can find on Patreon some free press journalist with real independence.

Catraism-Stalinism
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I prefer Mango Press.

Catraism-Stalinism
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the knee-jerk response to bash our comrades lol

@blkpws
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Yeah, it’s not binary, but in America and Europe, you can be a free journalist doing your own articles without control of those big companies, big companies just controls the mainstream. This means you can talk about more stuff compared to other countries where press is not free, and it’s even more controlled than our current capitalist system. That’s why Russia press can’t call “war” but here we can say NATO did war to a lot of countries without issues.

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