continuing the antifa discussion
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This thread is intended to continue the discussion of https://dev.lemmy.ml/post/33534

@diorama
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91Y

There is no such a thing as non-political discussion/instance/etc. Even low-inference science involves politics in epistemological stances. (disclosure: hard scientist here) Saying “I am non-political/anti-political” or “I am seeking non-political instances” is putting politics in a mistery box so that one cannot be accounted for their subtle - even unintentionally ignored - political biases and decisions. That results into carrying the ideology of their own surroundings, culturally influenced by ruling classes.

adamsky
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5
edit-2
1Y

True, most if not all aspects of our lives are political to some degree or another. It’s very useful to think about politics as part of the social fabric, the operating system we’re running as a society.

That results into carrying the ideology of their own surroundings, culturally influenced by ruling classes.

It does. For me this was one of the more depressing thoughts as I started to get a better grasp at what’s going on with our societies nowadays. Circumventing this influence will be borderline impossible considering how “depoliticized” people have become.

@diorama
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41Y

Also related to this post: the same concept of violence is influenced by ruling classes, so that occupying on-purpose–empty multicorp-owned buildings (see: gentrification) is seen as violence in the current USA and many other countries, whereas the absence of a universal healthcare is not.
Caveat: that does not mean to dismiss as a whole the dominant ideology, which may have progressive elements too. The premises for identifying these elements and separating the wheat from the chaff is to understand there is a systemic bias and how it is produced. Please do not mislead my post.

@ajz
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21Y

insightful

@fruechtchen
creator
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4
edit-2
1Y

I can recommend to watch the video of philosophy tube on the philosophy of antifa: yt, privacy friendly link

summary of the above video

  • Much of antifascist work is non-violent, and off of the streets
  • Antifascists oppose the actions of people currently building fascism, not the individuals themselves. If someone who used to go to Nazi rallies doesn’t show up at them anymore, antifascists won’t oppose their actions. If someone is just voting for a conservative politician, antifascists won’t oppose their actions.
  • Antifa is not an organization. Anyone who takes action against fascism, of any kind, is “part” of anti-fascist action, in the same way anyone who drives a Prius is “part” of the environmental
  • Antifascists are not terrorists. Terrorists attack symbolic targets (where it doesn’t matter who is harmed), while antifascists target specifics, i.e. this group/person, because of this action.
  • Antifascists do not want the government to change free speech, or hate speech laws. If they wanted the government to change its policy on fascist speech, they would protest the government. Instead, they take direct action against those who are saying fascist things.
  • Free speech is also far from absolute: Many people who support free speech for Nazis will also (not necessarily wrongly) support limitations on speech for criminals, or limitation on copyright infringing speech.
  • Antifascist action includes violence. However, nearly every other ideology also includes violence: Every law and every border requires violence to enforce it.
  • There is no such thing as “peaceful white nationalism.” Watch the video (@53:30) for the full argument, it’s hard to abridge it.
  • As a result of this, the targets of fascists cannot avoid conflict with fascism if it ever comes to power.
  • Don’t try to remove fascist posters with your hands, white supremacists sometimes put razor blazes inside the posters.

also from the above reddit link, but not part of the video:

  • Fascists do exist in the modern day. They look weak and foolish compared to our modern image of fascism, but remember: Our image of fascism comes from Nazi propaganda. If you imagine a fascist, you imagine rows and rows or soldiers (towering over the camera) walking in perfect synchronization. This is literally just from Nazi propaganda.
  • Pay attention to the way fascist and antifascist violence is reported on and framed in the media. Violence from modern day fascist organizations, typically neo-Nazis, is treated as the deranged actions of a single individual, from a single tiny group, and is not representative of everyone in that group. Violence from antifascist groups, on the other hand, is treated as though it was endemic to all antifascists, and ordered down from antifa central.
  • In 1934, an American professor urged that Jews be civil — to the Nazis
  • for reddit: /r/AntifascistAlliance and /r/blackflag are fake troll subreddits.
@ajz
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31Y

Today I have been wondering where the strong feelings in some of the comments of the referred thread are coming from. Let’s look at some differences :

  • “Please join the humor community” versus
  • “Please join the antifascist community”

The latter is not asking you to join existing real life Antifa groups, and for example be part of a black block during a demonstration. Still quite a lot of comments were there to show their dislike of Antifa. What is the role of mainstream media in that ? Mainstream media is usually the voice of governments and governments units like police and army. The same governments have a tradition to preach democracy and order. However, there is no real democracy in any country on the planet. And there is no order. There is just confusion and chaos. The majority of the real psychiatric patients are not locked away, but are “free” and often in power. How can a country like India - which has brought along so many significant philosophers and ideas - be one of the nuclear weapon states on this planet ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#India The answer is probably easy : We are in conflict with ourselves, confused and we are violent. There is no peace within most of us nor is there world peace, there is just a sort of lunch breaks between wars and selling weapons. Most of us are asleep, and ready to argue based on our emotions and the condition we grew up with. Children like to copy behavior of other people. It is hard for a child to be creative and break free from tradition and faulty behavior that we mostly are stuck with. Fascism is a serious problem, in some countries much more than in other countries. Things are bad for example in Brazil. Let’s not ignore it.

@SirLotsaLocks
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31Y

Yeah if someone believes that fascism is gone then they are living a privileged life. It’s not necessarily their fault but believing that it’s possible to ignore what’s happening in the world or even at home is not the responsible thing to do. Believing humans have gotten over their natural need for violence is also not responsible. Things like this will never go away and that’s why it’s important to always be in opposition to it when you see it. saying and doing things like “I don’t care about politics” when a clear fascist is in power (which is happening all over the world) only serves the fascists.

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