Welcome again to everybody! Make yourself at home <3 In the time honoured tradition of our group, here is our weekly discussion thread!
We are excited to announce a new discord server for Trans Communists. Check it out! https://discord.gg/WqcjV2sZ
Also check out our telegram https://t.me/real_genzedong!
uwu
They’re officially starting a “Russia has concentration camps” narrative. https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1543283521598398472 https://www.dw.com/ru/tajra-o-tom-kak-byla-v-plenu-mne-skazali-chto-zhit-ne-budu/a-62333825
Look I don’t know what’s going on over there, but Ukraine has no reason to tell the truth about anything considering they get more money and support the more “atrocities” occur.
Lovely. Meanwhile Ukranian military straight up admits they plan to castrate any Russian POW, and the western media goes crickets
They actively encourage the shit, too
The little “patsoc” civil war is getting a little worrying, lack of understanding and clear definitions leading to ad hominem bullshit and ridiculous strawmans. Really hope we don’t end up banning half the userbase over it.
On a serious note: I hope the issues get solved soon
I love this meme ahahahaha
We ought to have a pinned post summarizing what Lemmygrad’s “official” definition of PatSoc is
How can we? The ones to answer that are leading patsoc thinkers.
Could you give an example of a definition given by such a person? I think it would be useful to know how they use the term
No, not me. I don’t follow them. Caleb Maupen or someone who knows what he thinks could.
Emphasizing a working class history and promoting pride for that history is already an aspect of socialism. Adding a new name seems childish or wrong headed to me.
I’ve seen people like Hinckle and Haz promote the bourgeois national myth under the name, pilgrims and Indians, Manifest Destiny. Overall it seems like there are two schools of thought; the Caleb school which seems to be socialism but emphasizing the People’s History, and the Haz/Hinckle school of adolescent pretenders.
I don’t know how well these two schools blend together. I don’t know what if anything I’m missing, as I don’t pay close attention to anyone mentioned. My concern is that the former school would provide cover for the latter.
At best the Caleb school is an exercise in branding. I have books up to my knees that deal with a proper understanding of history. If you’re having trouble understanding what patriotic socialism even is, it’s because it’s just socialism rebranded to emphasize proletarian history.
All right. By “proletarian history”, do you mean a necessarily distorted form (downplaying the genocide of indigenous people, etc.)?
What do you think proletarian means? Read People’s history of the United States or counter-revolution of 1776. The latter being written by a renowned black scholar.
Why would we downplay it when our point is to show how evil the bourgeoisie is? I don’t believe the goal should be to downplay. Nor should it be to reinforce an association between the subject and the slaver or the colonizer. The goal is to present a history of class struggle and to associate the working class with that history.
Proletarian History is an attempted to present history from the perspective of the proletariat. The purpose is to break through the national myth and expose the history of class struggle and generational injury.
If your asking me what somebody else thinks on the issue I don’t know. As I said I don’t follow them close enough to know everything they say.
I’m aware of what the word means. You wrote that patriotic socialism is “just socialism rebranded to emphasize proletarian history”, but you also mentioned people who seem to be considered PatSocs (Hinckle and Haz) yet promote a distorted version of history (glorifying the past of the US), which would contradict the definition – however, re-reading your previous comment, I suppose you meant that you don’t actually consider these two PatSocs.
I’ll relay this to the mod team. My personal inclination is that while we should allow some discussion around the topic, we should ban people that outright deny the importance or existence of settler-colonialism, or think decolonization means not returning land to those it was stolen from. But ya I’ll get back to ya.
Can we please just stop using this damn word altogether, forget this ever happened and continue our lifes and talk about more important stuff? This wannabe sino-soviet split is so dumb, we are fighting because of misunderstandings, badly worded texts, and because of a bunch of clowns said some stupid shit on twitter and youtube. Its so not worth it to even put energy into this, i am starting to think this is not even about patsocs anymore. Also muad’dibber constantly menacing to ban people because of this is not helping at all. I dont even get what patsocs actually are, and so do most people here, this feels like a bunch of children having angry rants about communism on school, when they dont even know the definition of it, i know this for self experience.
You make a very good point. Solidarity should be the priority. Even if we disagree on things like symbolism or the meaning of patriotism or whatever it is. Class struggle should be uniting us.
The problem is not with the anti-pat-soc crowd. The problem is that when leftists adopt intersectionality, particularly with LGBTQ+ and indigenous minorities, it always happens that some people start arguing that because a particular segment of the working class disagrees with these things that we should abandon intersectionality because it will not be able to build a mass movement because the working class will reject it.
This argument arises predictably from active enough discussions that address intersectionality and inevitably lead from tolerance of anti-LGBTQ+ to denial of settler colonialism to espousal of patriotic socialism as a means of organizing a mass movement. And no matter how much writing and theory we pull out to show how lack of intersectionality is a non-starter for a sustainable socialist revolution, it’s the people who espouse patriotic socialism who accuse everyone else of being bourgeois reactionary idealists.
This continues until, inevitably, enough anecdotes are gathered from public figures that espouse patriotic socialism to demonstrate that, in fact, patriotic socialism is reactionary and the people espousing patriotic socialism continue to spew their talking points about tolerating intolerance and we basically have to make the choice between admitting reactionaries who genuinely believe we can build a socialist revolution that denies some of its members the right to exist as equals or repressing these tendencies within our community to prevent the community from devolving into a reactionary one.
Yes please, i agree. Lets stop with the threats and attacks. I already explained my position, if others dont agree or dont understand then thats that. Not worth the fight.
I don’t see why it should come to that.
You should see Muad’dibbers recent comments, I hope cooler heads prevail.
The farmers in the Netherlands are now blocking big food distribution centres. Supermarkets have cancelled stuff like online deliveries. In some places, truckers are counterprotesting the farmers by blocking them with trucks.
Shit’s wild yo. These farmers have no limits I think.
It will also be interesting to see what this does to the public opinion regarding protest. Because despite me not agreeing with their ideology, I admire the way the farmers have organized and disrupted the country.
A lot of people are made about this and are asking for the police and even the army to intervene. But at the same time they’re mad that leftist protests don’t get the same treatment and are often met with police violence. So will the future bring the same outrage from the public regarding leftist protest (in which case the government will love this opportunity)? Or will leftist protest become more ‘extreme’?
If only they weren’t on the wrong side
The funny thing is, most of what they produce is for export. So a normal strike where they stop working will not have a big effect on the Dutch people. Instead, they have to resort to terrorism like this to make an impact lmao.
It’s all about profit. Like I said before, it’s a capitalism turns fascism real life example.
So what’s going on with this Patsoc thing? I’m a bit OOTL
Very heated discussions with plenty of misunderstandings and unclear definitions, AFAICT (see @commiewolf’s reply below)
Was this on discord? Can’t remember seeing something on here.
Right here on Lemmy.
Well you sure do miss things when you go outside once in a while lol. I can’t say I really understand the debate at the moment. Is there any theory about this that I can read?
It’s unfortunate to see such a split all of a sudden. I do hope the debate on this can remain civil and that an agreement can be reached somehow. It would suck to see otherwise cool people of this place be turned away.
I’ve only briefly looked at the threads, but it seems to be based on different understandings of the term “patriotism” w.r.t. the imperial core, as well as some varying thoughts on topics like “land back” movements. The first link has a few comments that seem to summarize the discussion
There’s not really any patsoc “theory”, most of the comments here were from people denying the importance of settler-colonialism. Few books for debunking that:
- Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - An indigenous people’s history of the US
- Walter Rodney - How europe underdeveloped Africa
- Zak Cope - Divided world divided class
- Sakai - Settlers
- Rashid Khalidi - The hundred years war on Palestine
- Vincent Bevins - The Jakarta method
Something wacky is happening with the dollar. There’s talks about Great Depression 2.0 happening soon. And by soon I mean this year.
This summer in fact…
So how fucked are we?
Honestly, I think that gas prices alone could bankrupt millions of Americans who were kind of near the edge, and that’s not even including the macrosocietal fallout from such a price, or it’s effects on other industries, or other economic woes. And that’s not even considering the preexisting contradictions of American capitalism and how they’ve intensified in the past few decades. So, kinda fucked?
Well if you’ll excuse the egotism, I am more worried on the effects it will have outside the USA. The OG Great Depression did fuck over quite a lot of USians, don’t get me wrong, but the country recovered. At the same time, the effects of the crash were felt in many other countries, and arguably created the necessary conditions for the Nazi takeover of Weimar Republic.
Well, its actually interesting to consider the international effect. Given that the external pain caused by OG Great Depression happened in an era where America was one of the only major economic powers, and the international economy is becoming increasingly multipolar, the pain for most other countries shouldn’t be that bad. You’ll see most countries in the global south shift permanently to the Chinese bloc, as well as many countries in the global north. Unless your country has some specific superstructural condition (ie you live in an American puppet state), you’ll probably be (relatively) fine. TLDR the American workers are getting the shortest end of the stick here, and this year might drive the final nail into the coffin of American economic power abroad.
I hope you’re not underestimating the unipolarity of the world. I don’t live in the Imperial core (Russia), but my country has plenty of compradors with monetary interests in the West (i.e. central Europe). If those regions will be affected, I expect the capitalists to try and compensate the profits by extracting them domestically.
The capitalists will be capitalists, but ultimately, the rest of the world probably won’t feel the full brunt of the American economic collapse.
After days of protesting farmers that blocked highways and food distribution centres with virtually no arrest or police intervention, a highway blockade by Extinction Rebellion has now been cleared within 20 minutes.
But the police is neutral guys
what a
kō-ˈin(t)-sə-dən(t)s
I’m looking for some new theory books to read. My last adventure with Zygmunt Bauman’s ‘Modernity and the holocaust’ wasn’t that great but I don’t really know what to read right now. Anyone got a suggestion?
Any branch or topic specifically?
Here’s an audiobook of Lawrence Fishburne reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, I’m super pumped to read this version.
Is this link correct or are my boomer tech skills coming out again?
Anyway, I’m thinking about ways to get immigrants over here more involved with the party. So maybe something involving Western hegemony vs Global South or how capitalism is involved in racism or colonialism or something (if possible).
It’s a magnet link, it will open in a torrent client. It’s one of those naughty links to commit copyright infringement
Its a torrent link, you need a torrent client, then it’ll download.
For that, i’d recommend
- John Smith - Imperialism in the 21st century
- Zak Cope - Divided World Divided Class
Parenti’s good for easy reading.
Two recommendations of the more heavy sort are
- Hitlers Greece; History of Nazi Occupied Greece, the socialist resistance. In passing the book gives an honest perspective of how the European Bourgeoisie saw the Third Reich.
- Blood Lies; Refutation of anti Soviet propaganda. It’s an acedemic book full of citations and references to Sovietologists
My dad thinks he’s an intellectual very educated on politics and history and yet calls every mexican president ever a communist except the ones from the party he supports 😂
Am i the asshole if i just refuse to help my family with basic (literally basic) tech stuff, like setting up the wifi on their new phone, installing applications, etc? I am just tired of doing it and the thing is that they dont even bother learning and get mad if i refuse to do it. Like this aunt of mine (which of course buys an iphone every couple of years) has been asking strangers to set the wifi on her phone every time she travels or something, like why do you even buy a +$500 phone if you cant even do the most basic stupidproof thing there is and you have to waste other people time because you cant bother to learn it.
If you’ve told them that they have to learn how to do it and showed them how to, no, I don’t think so
Damn, Shinzo Abe just got shot dead during a speech
What is happening in Sri Lanka?
I think Dems are useless and liberals are naïve to the point of suicidal, but ultimately I still say that conservatives should be the focus of our criticism. The American Right is a threat to peace and stability on Earth and I am not exaggerating. The next great dictator is going to come from one of those people. Very soon.
