@ajz
mod
131Y

First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_

@ajz
mod
121Y

I don’t understand the fuzz which occurs here. Yes, there are anti-fascists groups in some countries which are not liked very much, but this is a “sub-lemmy”. Lemmy is a link aggregator. You can see it as sharing your favorite bookmarks, where on top of that conversations can happen or not.

Speaking for myself I like to do my best for a nice world by promoting open source software (and mostly for the privacy part, less for security part), and by sharing philosophy thoughts and more. I don’t like mainstream media very much and prefer to spend as little time on reading that as possible. I do like to hear alternative media as well, hence I subscribed here.

Peace and free speech ! (except for hatred ideas like that from neo-nazis)

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
5
edit-2
1Y

It’s also sad that just because there are some violent antifa protesters (which I don’t at all condone), everyone with vaguely “antifa” ideals are labelled as violent. Yet one of the first defences right-wing supporters use is “not all of us are white supremacists/nazis/violent/etc” (which is fair, but a double standard nonetheless).

@diorama
81Y

The difference between “violent” and “non-violent” protesters is misleading since considering looting, damage to private property, self-defense against systemic violence, ecc. under the umbrella term “violence” is the way liberals perpetrate their systemic violence.

@wraptile
banned
21Y

I think big issue is that lots of antifa movements is that they lack clear distinct message: what does anti-fascist even mean really? So they get lots of people from various subgroups that are pro violence like punks and anarchists as well as lots of posers that are in it for some personal gain.

@Siborgium
1
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@wraptile
banned
21Y

The idea behind free speech philosophically speaking is to protect potential value. For example if you say something like “the president is diddling kids” there’s inherit value to that statement even though it might be inaccurate because the president might be diddling kids and speech can move this to resolution.
Hate speech however has no value to it. The saying like “The X race are thieves” is so unlikely to be true or have any discourse value that the created negatives by this statement far outweigh any sort of plausible value.

Anyway, that’s how interpret the need for hate speech censoring. The problem of course that governing bodies are often corrupt and can deem anything to be “hate speech” however Lemmy addresses this by public logs so via democratic process community can self-govern themselves by rising against administration or switching to some other federated instance.

@ajz
mod
21Y

There should be no place to promote the ideas of Nazis from World War II. It is as simple as that. If you want to call that censorship, fine.

@Siborgium
2
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

Just here to be included in the FBI list!

@ajz
mod
71Y

In some countries the typical neo-nazis are a big problem. The recent “developments” in Germany are worrying. In Holland however they are relatively a minor problem. Apart from that one could wonder about the more subtle white collar fascism. For example the Western world is still in a post colonial phase where the expression “illegals” has become a common word in mainstream media and parliamentary politics. And there has been a swing to the right over most of Europe in the last decades. Then there is also the fact that there will be fewer survivors of WW-II. There will be a day in the future where there is no one who can tell us about the horrors of WW-II. No more persons who can tell us why we should not ignore fascism.

In Holland however they are relatively a minor problem. Apart from that one could wonder about the more subtle white collar fascism.

Literal neo-Nazis aren’t that common, but that’s also because they aren’t very open yet. Fascism can very easily turn into neo-Nazism, and the differences aren’t even that important. One of the biggest parties in the Netherlands is run by a text book fascist.

@testuser1
11Y

/u/frisodubach what party and what person do you mean by text book fascist? and can you give some examples, why you would consider person a fascist?

The party and the person I’m referring to is FVD (NL: Forum Voor Democratie; Eng: Forum For Democracy), and their party leader is Thierry Baudet. In the previous election they were the biggest party in the country.

Another fascist party is the PVV (NL: Partij Voor Vrijheid; Eng: Party For Freedom) with Geert Wilders as it’s leader. They used to be one of the biggest parties in the country, but FVD mostly absorbed their voters in the last election.

As to why they are fascists, that’s pretty easy. I adopt the framework first proposed by Robert Griffin, as it’s particularly useful. Fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, which means ultranationalism with a focus on rebirth with biblical undertones. This is a common trend you see in fascist nations such as Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany. And also contemporary parties such as Shinzo Abe’s party and FVD and PVV here in the Netherlands.

They constantly advocate for a ‘renaissance’ of Dutch ‘culture’, how were are a shell of our formers selves, and how the national identify, while the most important, is under attack. This pretty clearly fits the definition of fascism.

Luckily enough, for Thierry Baudet of FVD it’s even easier as he’s made comments in radio interviews before how he wants to live in a predominantly white Netherlands (but later changing his messaging to ‘culture’ because overt racism is difficult to sell, while also despising any contemporary art or culture and wanting to completely cut funding for it). He’s also suggested in a discussion with a black political scientist that black people are less intelligent by stating that “there’s a reason all Nobel prize winners are white”.

Doesn’t get much more clear than that.

@jaex5Fox
banned
0
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@Siborgium
2
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@ajz
mod
11Y

I appreciate your honesty. Having said that, calling people illegal is simply unethical and has nothing to do with the mediocre terms of “left” or “right”. The earth is a beautiful place for plants, animals and humans. Unfortunately the majority of humans with their self centered attitude have made a total mess of it with the effects of a climate change dystopia ahead. At least the native American Indians knew how to live in peace with nature.

@Siborgium
1
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@jaex5Fox
banned
0
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@ajz
mod
11Y

I don’t know about that. But I was not thinking about so-called “veterans”, but the people who suffered from WWII and lived in extreme poverty and extreme fear, and still survived the time of/around 1940-1945.

@jaex5Fox
banned
-1
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@ajz
mod
11Y

I see no reason to start throwing mud here like that. I still have several family members who survived WWII.

@fruechtchen
creator
4
edit-2
1Y

Admin announcement:

please continue the discussion in the antifa community. For instance, i have made this thread: https://lemmy.ml/post/35363

you can cite and link to specific posts and tag the users of the post, this will preseve the context of your answer and the original user you are replying to will get notified.

This way, the discussion can be continued seamlessly.

Thanks!

Please don’t make this community a political crap-hole

@fruechtchen
creator
7
edit-2
1Y
  • discussing politics is important; if you don’t do that, you will not notice when your democracy weakens.
  • the announcements community is completely fine to suggest new communities, according to the admins (see the sidebar)
  • also notice that lemmy.ml is - according to the admins an antifa instance - which makes it inherently political.
  • you can choose to open your own non-political instance.
@jaex5Fox
banned
-1
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@Panzerfaust
banned
31Y

Why should I? It doesn’t make any difference if I join or not.

@fruechtchen
creator
91Y
  • you get notified for new posts
  • i want this community to grow, so antifascist exchange grows
@Mek101
11Y

Depends if you guys will actually give me a couple of reasons when someone new get’s a little perplexed by some occurencies, rather than starting to calling him a nazi https://www.reddit.com/r/antifastonetoss/comments/gvtgwv/what_is_this_shit_anyone_explain/fsqwqb6

@testuser1
51Y

i’m not sure how to respond. A few points:

  • i don’t like stalinism, because stalinism has lead to fascism.
  • i don’t like stalin and people who like stalin.
  • based on the urban directory entry on the word ‘tankie’, i also don’t like tankies.
  • i don’t know what AHS means in this context.
  • in general, i’m confused about this reddit post and don’t know how to deal with it
@testuser1
21Y

Person who downvoted this post, could you explain the reason for downvoting? i’d like to learn the reason.

@developred
5
edit-2
6M

deleted by creator

@testuser1
11Y

/u/developred Oooh, this is a great response. This is another great example why explaining downvotes is great:

I now learned something.

To be fair, i will still be very critical about stalin. For instance, i don’t understand

Stalin was without doubt one of the most ruthless world leaders of the 20th Century, responsible for millions upon millions of deaths. But estimates of the number of deaths he caused vary wildly – from 3 million to 60 million.

Increasingly paranoid, Stalin unleashed his “Great Terror” in the 1930s. 750,000 members of the military or the Communist Party who he thought might oppose him were executed. Three million were exiled – imprisoned in gulags where they became slave labour.

from https://historyofrussia.org/stalin-killed-how-many-people/

and

The Great Purge or the Great Terror (Russian: Большой террор) was a campaign of political repression in the Soviet Union which occurred from 1936 to 1938.[6] It involved a large scale repression of wealthy peasants (labeled as “kulaks”), genocidal acts against ethnic minorities, a purge of the Communist Party and government officials, and the Red Army leadership, widespread police surveillance, suspicion of saboteurs, counter-revolutionaries, imprisonment, and arbitrary executions.[7][8] Historians estimate the total number of deaths due to Stalinist repression in 1937–38 to be between 680,000 and 1,200,000.[1][2]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

So this seems to me very similar to what a fascist state would do. So i think the term “dicator” is correct. This is what i don’t like.

@nutomic
admin
51Y

The only way you can get to 60 million deaths caused by the Soviet Union is by including everyone that was killed on the eastern front of World War 2, including invading nazi soldiers and civilians killed by nazis. But thats not all, they also looked at the number of births in previous years, and when less children were conceived during the war, those were also counted as “killed by Stalin”.

If you are curious, this page has a lot more resources

@testuser1
21Y

Hm, interesting. thanks

@developred
2
edit-2
6M

deleted by creator

Metawish
11Y

As someone with family who lived through the era in the Soviet Union, Stalin is bad. That doesn’t mean that socialism/communism is bad. These thoughts are not mutually exclusive. My family had never had to be homeless or without clothes, but they did live under a state of terror and oppression. Plus, it seems modern versions of communism almost ALWAYS demand complete atheism and persecute those who still have faith and practice it, hence a lot of Jewish populations still experienced hate and murder based on their religion. So for me personally, I agree that I don’t like Stalin, and critically engage with people who do like Stalin (since like you said, a lot of fantastic revolutionaries and activists were heavily influenced by Stalin). I have personal history and beef with the guy.

@wraptile
banned
21Y

That doesn’t mean that socialism/communism is bad

It does mean however that communism model is weak to corruption such as this — meaning it’s not viable as humanity will always find ways to be corrupt.

Other systems such as elect-democracy account for human corruption better so even if they are less efficient on paper, by median they end up being more efficient because less resources are lost to corruption.

@testuser1
11Y

I don’t understand why this was downvoted, since the author speaks about personal experiences being told.

I mean how can you disagree with that? with personal experiences?

@testuser1
0
edit-2
1Y

because the word ‘antifa’ is also mentioned there, a few points:

  • i’d consider this video (yt link, invidious link) a very good description of what antifa means.
  • doxxing, can also be a morally legitimate antifascist action, for which i want to give a specific example: In germany, the AFD received political pressure and in the end decided to cancel the membership of andreas kalbitz, because of a doxxing antifascist action. What happened, was that kalbitz membership of neonazi organizations was revealed publically, by antifascists. So this antifascist research action resulted in a weakening of the right wing of the AFD itself, which is a huge win for democracy.
@testuser1
31Y

Does that answer your question, /u/Mek101 ? If not, you are very welcome to ask all questions you desire in the antifa community. We are very happy to answer. :)

@Mek101
11Y

I will check the video. I’ll admit that I mainly posted this because I’m still a bit butthurt over their response: it really gave the impression that you guys go on and shout “fascist” at the first occasion (a thing that all right-wingers complain about, rightfully or not)

@testuser1
2
edit-2
1Y
  • i personally belive it is a much stronger act to publish the material leading to the conclusion that someone is a fascist, than publically saying “person is a fascist, i have the proof”.
  • the antifascistic scene is very big, which means there are different people with different opinions. So i also had sometimes the impression that people were not careful enough in calling people fascist/nazis (including myself a few months/years ago :D). However, this is not a good reason to be not active as an antifascist.
  • i probably would previously have called martin sellner and the indentitarian movement fascist & nazi but i’m not sure about whether this is the correct way to think about them. Because new rights and the typical right wing extremists have different strategies. This differentiation is lost when you call everybody nazi.
  • also, one mistake i have made previously: strongly believing in my own opinion. So now, i am much more cautious of how to describe things, because i know i don’t know much about nazis, neonazis, AFD, etc. And it makes a lot of sense to assume that people who have been a longtime part of the antifa movement/scene also have a good understanding of nazis, neonazis, AFD, etc. --> So when someone says something you don’t agree with (for instance, calling people nazis), try to understand their reasons.
@Mek101
11Y

(including myself a few months/years ago :D)

I do appreciate the honesty though :-)

@testuser1
21Y

ah, but this might be misleading: so the case was that i called bjoern hoecke a fascist, but forgot the reasons. This is bad, because now it seems that bjoern hoecke was correct in saying that he is not a nazi.

–> this is also a good reason to focus on the facts (what does this person do, what does this person say, in what context does the person say sth, which persons does this person share their time with, what demonstrations, what people does this person visist, etc.) instead of labeling persons. Because, there is also a gray area, where people are not sure where it is appropriate to call somebody nazi. And in these cases the focus on the facts is much more powerful in criticizing the shift to a right-wing society

@xvf
11Y

Why is this even in announcements, I thought this community was for official announcements of Lemmy or something.

@nutomic
admin
71Y

It has kind of turned into a place where people can announce their new communities. I dont see anything wrong with that. There are still votes so Lemmy announcements will probably be at the top.

@nutomic
admin
41Y

/u/dessalines could you mention this in the sidebar?

Dessalines
mod
admin
41Y

/u/kixiQu sure.

Maya
admin
51Y

It might be cool if the sidebar had a clarification of what belongs here.

@theel
01Y

doesn’t matter, it is about what the people want

@meep_meep
01Y

every decent person is against totalitarian ideologies like fascism and communism, but I don’t have good experience with people who describe themselves as “antifascists”

@k_o_t
admin
71Y

communism isn’t a totalitarian ideology…

@aethralis
61Y

Communism itself maybe not, but as Marx said, “practice is the criterion of truth”, and in practice all communist regimes have turned out to be totalitarian.

yeah due to human nature communism isn’t very achievable for better or for worse

@ajz
mod
41Y

Communism and anarchism and the like do not have to be applied to countries to be genuinely successful. We are born and grow up with the concept of countries. However countries and its borders can be seen as artificial, and nationalistic feelings can actually cause a lot of harm. When human beings first appeared on Earth there were likely no countries.

Things like communism and anarchism can be successfully applied to smaller scale projects like for example self sustainable villages.

Thats a good point actually. I recently saw someone suggesting the idea of instead of massive nations having small county size communities. It’s a cool idea for sure, but I’m not sure how productive it would be if there wasn’t much to self sustain. How would you go about that? Like if you weren’t next to a body of water?

@ajz
mod
41Y

Years ago I read about anarchist villages in Spain (and Portugal ?), and I liked that idea very much. Regarding self sustainable more general (without strong emphasis on the before mentioned isms), I have the impression that a project like Longo Mai is pretty self sustainable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longo_Mai

that’s super cool!

@Mek101
21Y

All the famous ones. The paris commune, Spainiard Republic and the Ukranian anarchists where communist as “anarco-communist” in nature, but none of them lasted long enough or had enough influence to be remembered

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
5
edit-2
1Y

I mean, isn’t true communism supposed to be a classless and stateless society wholly controlled by the citizens? That just proves that the greater concept of communism isn’t totalitarian.

@fruechtchen
creator
51Y

to expand on that:

There exist at least two branches of communism, as far as i know: for one the authoritarian communism (which you might call totalitarian) but also the anarcho-communism. And the latter is against authorities, which means it can’t be much totalitarian

@fruechtchen
creator
31Y

do you want to share your experiences?

@fruechtchen
creator
21Y

You might still want to join it, because we (the antifascists) usually are interested in explaining the motivation for our actions.

In this case, i would like to refer to this fantastic video(YT link), invidio.us link. I think this video addresses some of the actions you don’t have a good experience with. I think this is especially a great video, because it tries to be rather neutral and unbiased.

In any case, i’m also here to answer your questions, if you have any.

@fruechtchen
creator
41Y

And for your information: you might want to differentiate between anarchistic communism and authoritarian communism. As far as i understand, most people (that is, in the german leftist scene) think of anarchistic communism when they refer to communism in a positive way.

Please correct me, if i’m wrong.

@AgreeableLandscape
admin
1
edit-2
1Y

“antifascists” is an extremely general term than includes all kinds of people. That’s like saying you don’t have good experience with people who describe themselves as “not liking spaghetti”.

@Panzerfaust
banned
-11Y

No.

@fruechtchen
creator
31Y

/u/Panzerfaust why not?

@peternile
1
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@fruechtchen
creator
71Y

/u/peternile do you mind explaining why?

@peternile
3
edit-2
1Y

deleted by creator

@nutomic
admin
51Y

This is an Antifa instance.

@testuser1
2
edit-2
1Y

/u/peternile i’m curious to understand why you don’t like them or what experience you have made. :) Do you mind sharing your experiences? :D

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