Don’t go to r/EuropeanSocialists apparently, worst mistake of my life.
Feel very sad for all the people wishing to learn more about socialism and getting roped into trash like this.
Of the National variety, from what I can tell.
That sub is like: “what if communism, but make it trans and homophobic.”
I don’t get nazbols dude. Imagine actually believing the weird anti-soviet propaganda about Stalin being a super nationalist anti-LGBT counter-revolutionary and then going…“That sounds great! Sign me up!”
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When I state anti-LGBT, I mean the propaganda of putting gay people in gulags and actively hounding them or something - they were still plenty not accepted in that society and were treated very badly pretty much everywhere in the world back then, but, the USSR wasn’t going around actively rounding up queer people - they had much bigger things to worry about.
Also the “he made homosexuality illegal” is a common misunderstanding. Lenin didn’t “legalize gay marriage”, he abolished the old tsarist law. Later on, the USSR partially re-instituted those laws with occasional amendments, but they did not care about gay people at the time - homosexuality was illegal in the tsarist law, and it still remained that way when it was re-instituted. Nobody in the ruling class paid it much mind.
LGBT rights are only “Western values” whenever the imperialists can weaponize homonationalism against the villain nation of the day. Most nations had no such misgivings about LGBT people prior to European colonialism, when white devils and barbaric Christian understandings of gender and sexuality spread like a plague through Africa and the East.
In the times of Stalin, LGBT rights were no-one’s values except LGBT people. No east, no west, no north and no south. But this article is pretty good at contextualizing it imo. Labeling Stalin as anti-LGBT makes no sense whenever there is no widely acknowledged “pro-LGBT” to compare him to, and the alternatives are Nazi death camps or western Gay-bashings and bar-burnings.
So is it more sensible to say that they just didn’t engage in much meaningful way legislatively?
I would say yes. As much as I wish socialist-scientific consensus was beyond the capitalists’ at this point, it was just the same. Slap a law on it and call it done. Contextualizing it is important, though – they were in the Orthodox religious hegemon of Eastern Europe, the Nazis had destroyed by far the most extensive and progressive scientific literature and institutions of the day related to LGBT people, setting understanding back decades if not centuries, etc. Calling Stalin personally homophobic and dismissing him wholesale for it is sorta missing the wood for the trees (or however that saying goes lol) within the context of the time period and general “scientific” consensus at the time relating to LGBT people and our struggle.
Even out of this rubble and ruin, socialist governments inspired by the Soviet Union end up far beyond capitalist nations wrt understanding LGBT issues… the GDR was more progressive than modern Germany in some regards, Cuba is blowing the U.S. out of the water when it comes to pushing legitimate grassroots acceptance, and China continues to drop new legislation pushing forward the dialogue on LGBT rights, all in direct opposition to the conservative parts of their cultures, which is inspiring.
Once someones breaks out words like degenerates I get concerned. More Nietzsche or Evola than Marxian analysis
edit: surprised I didn’t see any mention of “bourgeois decadence” in that thread
do you have a link to the original thread?
Thread is hella locked, and it looks like all the nice Marxists answers got removed too, but the a-material ones left alive. Go figure.
Fair warning It has some seriously transphobic posts.
“what is the point of sexual intercourse” starting to talk like an evangelical christian
“there are no socialist or imperialist states in Europe right now”
I know it’s not related to your original point, but I don’t know how someone can say there no imperialist nations in europe lmao
What is England??
Maybe that’s just a very meta Brexit joke haha
What if england was just an bad nightmare?
God I wish
Oooof. That sub is very homophobic, transphobic, sexist, ultranationalist and even with some antisemitic tones. I dont know if it can be called nazbol, but its definetely close. I still browse it sometimes because there is interesting information buried between all the trash, but its definetely unpleasant. It wasnt like this a year ago, but the mods became full on ultranationalist anti LGBT and sexist. There is one prominent mod (frogsknecht) who supported the Talibans policies towards women, saying that premarital sex is bad and that actually women prefer to be segregated from other men and controlled by their husband/dad/brother. Terrible stuff.
Also albanianbolshevik (the mod pictured in the screenshot) is extremely antiserb. I discussed the Kosovo issue once with him and he straight up said that Enver Hoxha should have invaded Yugoslavia just to retake Kosovo and that no negotations with Serbia should be done. Literal chauvinism.
Well, Serb fucked up on the Kosovar question, period. If the Balkans had actual borders which would make sense (Macedonia being Bulgarian and Albanian, Kosovo divided between Serbia and Albania, Bosnia and Croatia to Serbia) the Balkans would never have any problem.
Dont know if you can read this (i see you got banned) but ill still respond.
This is bs. I used your sub since 1 year ago and it wasnt like that. It was a normal marxist sub. Sure there was somo opposition to identity politics, but nothing like this. Furthermore, i spoke to PolandIsAStateOfMind about this (he was a full member of your community if im not wrong, very active user) and he 100% agreed with me, you are extremely deep into nationalism, social conservatism and even some antisemitism. This is evident to anyone browsing old threads. I never claimed anyone “took over the sub”. Whether you changed your views or you were just hiding them before, only you know.
You dont care about the Talibans policies huh? What kind of marxist are you then? You do know that Mao said “women hold up half the sky” right? And like him Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin. I never said that the Taliban are worse than the compradors. I too am happy that the Taliban defeated the imperialists and liberated Afghanistan, and i offer very critical support to them for that. But i will not ignore their extremely reactionary views and history. Its not just about womens rights, although that alone should be a big nono. The Taliban came out of the mujahideen, an US puppet reactionary group that fought the USSR. The only difference between the Taliban and the mujahideen, is that the Taliban wanted a moral independent governance, free of US control and the brutal abuses against civilians that the mujahideen committed. Thats why Mullah Omar founded the Taliban.
However, they dont disagree with them on their islamism, anticommunism and proAl Qaeda sentiment. Id remind you that it was the Taliban that captured Najibullah, the last leader of socialist Afghanistan, and tortured him to death in brutal ways. If you came out as a communist in Afghanistan, they would hang you in public. Do you realize that? The person i mentioned (frogsknecht) wasnt just saying “its good the Taliban liberated Afghanistan from the imperialists”, which i agree on. No, he was defending their social policies, going as far as saying that “actually, women like being segregated from men in society”, defending death sentences by stoning for adultery and saying that premarital sex is immoral and should be punished. Not even the most socially conservative socialist state ever defended those things. And yet, you act like this is okay. This is not ok! Womens rights have ALWAYS been an integral part of socialism, since Marx. This isnt like LGBT rights where there are disagreements. So theres no justifying this if you are a marxist.
Meanwhile, Yugoslavia and Albania were 2 socialist countries. In Yugoslavia, albanians had full political representation and the same rights as serbs. Albanian was an official language, Kosovo had wide autonomy under the 1970 Constitution, its government was dominated by albanians, albanians tended to be wealthier than serbs, and any type of serb nationalism was harshly suppressed by Tito. Tito never allowed serbs to come settle in Kosovo, in order to maintain an albanian majority. It is literally uncomparable. Albanians lived very well in socialist Yugoslavia, which is why there was pretty much no opposition to the system, despite Albania trying its best to fund and arm terrorists. It was only in the 1980s and onward, when the economic crisis began, that nationalism, both serb and albanian, reflourished.
Also you think that i oppose antizionism or something? I literally have a baathist flag on my profile picture!
This person got banned from here after being wildly antisemitic (not merely antizionist, just antisemitic)
Working class is dirty hands, dead racial and sexual minorities, and trains arriving on time… Maybe they’re solar powered.
These guys probably
I came out as trans after I learned about and embraced Marxism-Leninism. Inexplicable behaviour.
I started learning about marxism around the time I came out. I think I see a pattern here…
I wonder how they explain East Germany having state funded gay clubs and how lots of trans research started in East Germany before the rise of the nazis.
Like… What is their explanation for first nations having a fairly spectrum based expression of genders?
Ill show YOU a gay paradise
A dialectical materialist analysis of LGBT and specifically Trans issues will reveal concretely that the correct thing to do is to fight for queer emancipation, against patriarchal oppression of people, and with that, against the capitalist class society itself.
I also do not trust anyone who says that gender and sexual identity are “liberal” values. There are plenty of gender non conforming individuals outside of “liberal” societies. Historically also, we have had “third-gender” institutions and event bi-sexual polyamory in pre-class society.
Liberals had to be dragged kicking and screaming into recognizing lgbt rights. Western liberals are actively fighting to roll back that progress in places like Florida.
Liberals say a lot of stupid things. Post incidences here.