@nutomic
admin
81Y

We have a mirror on my Gitea instance, I make all my pull requests there.

https://yerbamate.dev/dessalines/lemmy

@dirtfindr
51Y

The yerbamate.dev repo is indeed freedom-respecting and is free of all the evil of Github, but there is no issue tracker. It’s backwards to have the issue tracker on Github, the walled-garden where access is difficult/blocked for some as well as out of reach to those with strong enough morals not to use Github.

@nutomic
admin
41Y

True, but unfortunately most people have accounts on Github already, and dont want to sign up on another site just for one project. Hopefully this will get better when Gitea gets federation.

Having two seperate issue trackers would be even worse imo.

@dirtfindr
3
edit-2
1Y

I wouldn’t propose two issue trackers. There should be one issue tracker, and it should be on a non-controversial platform that is open to all, not an exclusive walled-garden.

I have a Github acct from the days prior to Microsoft ownership. Now that MS owns it, it’s more difficult to login. In fact, github logins are more difficult than yerbamate.dev registrations. I often discover bugs in software that is exclusively on Github, but I don’t report them b/c I can’t be bothered to login and support Microsoft’s assets.

@nutomic
admin
21Y

Well /u/dessalines is the one you have to convince about this, I’m completely with you ;)

Dessalines
admin
51Y

/u/dirtfindr Its seems strange that even things like gitea, which has its own issue tracking system and literally replaces github, still primarily uses github for issue tracking. I similarly don’t plan on moving because:

  1. Most of the development community is still on github. Its not good, but its where people are.
  2. I’m pushing to 3 different repository locations rn, and PRs are open on all of them. Github has received the most.
  3. There is currently no decentralized issue tracking system. And if there was, I’d probably still keep both while people are doing the transition.
  4. A lot of people have asked me to use their preferred systems/technologies, not really caring about the amount of work it would take to transfer everything.

dear /u/dessalines,

regarding issue tracking:

  • if you use gitlab/github, you will loose contributions from the people not wanting to use gitlab/github.
  • if you don’t use gitlab/github, you may loose contributions from people who are too lazy to register an account.

So you will loose contributions either way. however, i think it is better to include the people in 1). Because:

  • i think many people are willing to create an account on your desired platform, because they are not lazy.
  • you can fight here against the monopoly of gitlab/github - that means, you have here the decision what software to promote.
  • when you vote for the monopoly of github/gitlab it is even more difficult for alternative platforms like gitea or something like that to sustain.
  • github has received the most contributions because it is the primary work area, not because of your users like github most.

and regarding:

A lot of people have asked me to use their preferred systems/technologies, not really caring about the amount of work it would take to transfer everything.

I can completely understand that. But see, you do not need to transfer everything in a short time. because, when you decide on a longterm repository, every contributor can like move 2 issues from github to your desired platform. (that is, summarizing it and linking to the github issue).

Dessalines
admin
51Y

if you use gitlab/github, you will loose contributions from the people not wanting to use gitlab/github.

github has received the most contributions because it is the primary work area, not because of your users like github most.

I had issues open on gitlab and yerbamate for months, and advertised all three. Very few issues opened. PRs are still open on all three, but the only PRs have been from me and nutomic. So unfortunately no one is using them, although they do exist. Most people are still using github.

You can issue PRs here if you don’t want to use github or gitlab: https://yerbamate.dev/dessalines/lemmy

As far as issue tracking, I don’t really want to migrate all the issues, until a federated issue tracking system gets mostly working.

@nutomic
admin
31Y

Btw even Gitea is still using Github for their primary repo.

https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/issues/1029

@dirtfindr
11Y

yeah I noticed gitea doesn’t eat their own dog food, which reflects poorly on them.

Luckily we aren’t limited to Gitea. You can avoid Github and Gitlab.com and use a 3rd party instance of a Gitlab installation. In that case there is no ethical issue and likely to functionality issue either b/c I believe the Gitlab s/w package is feature rich.

@nutomic
admin
21Y

I will make it simple, we are not going to move the main repo away from Github for now. There is no point arguing about this, or trying to convince us. If the situation for code hosting changes in the future, we will reconsider our opinion.

As far as issue tracking, I don’t really want to migrate all the issues, until a federated issue tracking system gets mostly working.

is this good enough? https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug - i think it is even better, because you dont need an account as far as i understand. so it works like development over mailinglists like the linux kernel or openbsd.

I had issues open on gitlab and yerbamate for months, and advertised all three. Very few issues opened. PRs are still open on all three, but the only PRs have been from me and nutomic. So unfortunately no one is using them, although they do exist. Most people are still using github.

However, i still think thats because github is viewed as the main platform (for instance, because the issues are there). So having another, different way to contribute is unexpected, i guess. Therefore many people don’t really notice that.

btw: i have time on this weekend. if you want to start this transition, i would help to move issues from github to gitea.

@dirtfindr
1
edit-2
1Y

Concur with u/fruechtchen.

Also lazy users are perhaps not the ones making significant contributions to the project anyway, because they’re lazy.

Consider as well that when Github/Gitlab.com force me through hoops as a Tor user, not only am I too lazy to solve CAPTCHAs and do Github email re-verifications but I also feel like those efforts feed unethical systems which is even more anti-motivational. I will not dance for them – and as a consequence I often do not report bugs that I discover if the project is on Github or Gitlab.com.

@nutomic
admin
21Y

You can also report bugs here on this site.

@dirtfindr
1
edit-2
1Y

When a project uses Gitlab.com or Github, I’ll usually report the bug in some unconventional place (IRC, a forum, Mastodon, etc). I have little confidence that it gets spotted by someone who then actually transcribes the bug into a bug tracking/triage system. For some projects there is no suitable means of communication (they only use Twitter or Facebook or some exclusive walled garden).

@nutomic
admin
21Y

Gitea is planning to migrate everything to gitea.com, but I dont know when that process will be finished.

https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/issues/1029

this discussion is continued here: https://lemmy.ml/post/32715

Dessalines
admin
61Y

It’s hosted on GitHub, gitea, and gitlab.

@oriond
creator
11Y

Interesting! isin’t it a pain in the ass to update and keep all of them synchronized? Or can git work with multi account?

Dessalines
admin
41Y

It’s pretty easy to add multiple remotes,https://stackoverflow.com/a/3195446

@dirtfindr
31Y

Gitlab just got worse by proxying through CloudFlare – one of the top privacy abusers.

@alexxhenry
11Y

Wait, what? I thought CloudFlare was one of the most privacy forward DNS servers. Please explain.

@alexxhenry
31Y

Thanks. Does this mean you avoid 1.1.1.1 as DNS server as well?

@AgreeableLandscape
mod
admin
11Y

I would like to know this too.

@fruechtchen
4
edit-2
1Y

/u/alexxhenry and /u/AgreeableLandscape Well, that depends on what you believe.

However:

  • cloudflare is a capitalistic company from the US, which means their managers probably have very high salary (i estimate more than 1 million). So it is not working for public welfare.
  • There exist many DNS server which are working for the public welfare. For instance in germany, it is digitalcourage.de - https://digitalcourage.de/support/zensurfreier-dns-server and another alternative is dismail.de
  • however, running an DNS server for public welfare like the above requires money, so a donation would be great.

That means in particular that you can decide what kind of society you want or think is better, by supporting those who work in your interest.

@wraptile
banned
-61Y

Oof the first one is such a trigger bait. I hate to see free software get invaded with this culture. The second one is rather irellevant too - who cares that your free code is hosted on google’s servers?

@dirtfindr
10
edit-2
1Y

“Free software” that forces execution of non-free software isn’t really free. (see paragraph “2” below)

There is nothing particularly wrong with the gitlab software, but that software must be hosted and configured and there are copious ethical problems with the gitlab.com service that the OP suggested:

  • Sexist treatment toward saleswomen who are told to wear dresses, heels, etc.
  • Hosted by Google.
  • Proxied through privacy abuser CloudFlare.
  • tracking
  • Hostile treatment of Tor users trying to register.
  • Hostile treatment of new users who attempt to register with a @spamgourmet.com forwarding email address to track spam and to protect their more sensitive internal email address.
  • Hostile treatment of Tor users after they’ve established an account and have proven to be a non-spammer.

Regarding the last bullet, I was simply trying to edit an existing message that I already posted and was forced to solve a CAPTCHA (attached). There are several problems with this:

  • CAPTCHAs break robots and robots are not necessarily malicious. E.g. I could have had a robot correcting a widespread misspelling error in all my posts.
  • CAPTCHAs put humans to work for machines when it is machines that should work for humans.
  • CAPTCHAs are defeated. Spammers find it economical to use third-world sweat shop labor for CAPTCHAs while legitimate users have this burden of broken CAPTCHAs.
  • The reCAPTCHA puzzle requires a connection to Google
    1. Google’s reCAPTCHAs compromise security as a consequence of surveillance capitalism that entails collection of IP address, browser print.
      • anonymity is compromised.
      • (speculative) could Google push malicious j/s that intercepts user registration information?
    2. Users are forced to execute non-free javascript (recaptcha/api.js).
    3. The reCAPTCHA requires a GUI, thus denying service to users of text-based clients.
    4. CAPTCHAs put humans to work for machines when it is machines who should be working for humans. PRISM corp Google Inc. benefits financially from the puzzle solving work, giving Google an opportunity to collect data, abuse it, and profit from it. E.g. Google can track which of their logged-in users are visiting the page presenting the CAPTCHA.
    5. The reCAPTCHAs are often broken. This amounts to a denial of service. gitlab_google_recaptcha
      • E.g.1: the CAPTCHA server itself refuses to give the puzzle saying there is too much activity.
      • E.g.2: ccha
    6. The CAPTCHAs are often unsolvable.
      • E.g.1: the CAPTCHA puzzle is broken by ambiguity (is one pixel in a grid cell of a pole holding a street sign considered a street sign?)
      • E.g.2: the puzzle is expressed in a language the viewer doesn’t understand.
    7. (note: for a brief moment gitlab.com switched to hCAPTCHA by Intuition Machines, Inc. but now they’re back to Google’s reCAPTCHA)
    8. Network neutrality abuse: there is an access inequality whereby users logged into Google accounts are given more favorable treatment the CAPTCHA (but then they take on more privacy abuse). Tor users are given extra harsh treatment.
@resynth1943
2
edit-2
5M

deleted by creator

@dirtfindr
31Y

This is why gitlab.com should be listed as a service to avoid, like MS Github.

@resynth1943
2
edit-2
5M

deleted by creator

btw gitea selfhosts almost everything besides the code, it seems: https://gitea.com/gitea - it seems migrating issues is more difficult and they wait for a automatic solution.

What is libre culture?

Libre culture is all about empowering people. While the general philosophy stems greatly from the free software movement, libre culture is much broader and encompasses other aspects of culture such as music, movies, food, technology, etc.

Some beliefs include but aren’t limited to:

  • That copyright should expire after a certain period of time.
  • That knowledge should be available to people, not locked away.
  • That no entity should have unjust control or possession of others.
  • That mass surveillance is about mass control, not justice.
  • That we can all band together to help liberate each other.

Check out this link for more.

Rules

I’ve looked into the ways other forums handle rules, and I’ve distilled their policies down into two simple ideas.

  • Please show common courtesy: Let’s make this community one that people want to be a part of.

  • Please keep posts generally on topic

  • No NSFW content

  • When sharing a Libre project, please include the name of its license in the title. For example: “Project name and summary (GPL-3.0)”

Libre culture is a very very broad topic, and while it’s perfectly okay for a conversation to stray, I do ask that we keep things generally on topic.

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