Today i had the misfortune of encountering a western “leftist” on Twitter. He stans Podemos (a spanish demsoc party, very liberal and proNATO, they are now in a coalition government with the socdems and they love Zelenski). We discussed the Ukraine War and Russia. I thought he would do the typical “ok the US and NATO are very bad, but Russia is bad too!” so i brought up the NATO invasions of Yugoslavia and Libya to show how the west is manufacturing consent now with Ukraine just like they did with Yugoslavia and Libya, which i assumed he would say were bad. Well the motherfucker goes and says “akchually those invasions were good, we stopped genocides and evil dictators”. WTF. How are these people “leftists”? They are straight up NATOist warhawks. How is this “the left” now? And this is in Europe, where the left is much stronger than in the US! I cant stand this. HOW IS THIS “LEFTISM”? Im so angry right now, what a piece of shit human being, defending imperialist genocides while calling himself a “leftist”. He even had the gull of saying “you arent a leftist, you defend genocidal regimes like the USSR, Putin or North Korea, youre a fascist!”. Fucking unbelievable. Ok rant over.

Oh and he also defended finnish and baltic nazis of WW2 and said “bolshevism is just like nazism”. Plus he said holodomor was real and when i showed him that expert historians on the subject like Mark Tauger, J Arch Getty and Stephen Wheatcroft think otherwise, he said “youre wrong, the historical consensus doesnt agree with you”.

  • @Munrock@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    502 years ago

    Being pro-NATO or even thinking that they’re a ‘defensive alliance’ is the biggest tell. You have to have your head in the sand to take that position.

  • AgreeableLandscape☭
    link
    fedilink
    422 years ago

    I’ve realized that unless they specifically say Marxist or ML, chances are they’re just confused liberals.

    • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      33
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Even if they claim to be ML its bad. Here the Communist Party of Spain claims to be ML but its 100% liberal. They are in coalition government with these Podemos idiots and the socdems. They love Zelenski, say pootin man bad all the time and support sending weapons to neonazis. While many members of the party are based the leadership are a gang of corrupt opportunists and are destroying the party. Although imo the party was killed in 1975, when they rejected revolution in favor of liberal democracy. Honestly i think the KKE (Communist Party of Greece) is the only mainstream communist party in western europe that isnt 100% social imperialist.

        • @CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
          link
          fedilink
          312 years ago

          There is no label that is actually free of red flags if you ask me. Identifying a certain way doesn’t make a person infallible or even revolutionary.

          I mean most people here are ML but yet ive seen people pushing pro-life propaganda. Not something I would have expected.

          • @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
            cake
            link
            fedilink
            19
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            It’s all because idealism. What mostly baffled me on GenZedong was how incredibly full that sub was of religious apologists. I mean, did those guys ever read anything about the topic of idealism and materialism by idk, such fringe and unknown marxists like Marx, Engels or Lenin?

            EDIT: Aw damn, they are here too. Seriously guys, read some Marx, Engels, Lenin. Really.

            • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
              link
              fedilink
              17
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              I mean, i still think tho that we shouldnt supress religion, we should control it, like in China. Religion will fade away with communism, but until then we must deal with it somehow. Supressing it doesnt work (as a pole you sure must know) and its wrong. By controlling it, we remove cults and reactionary branches of mainstream religions and put in its place religious leaders loyal to the Communist Party. China did this great in Tibet. They replaced the proUS Panchen Lama with a prochinese one, and as soon as the Dalai Lama dies the same thing will be done, and it will be the end for the US funded tibetan opposition. Same in Xinjiang, they have religious leaders who respect secularism and are loyal to Beijing. I also think we shouldnt ban religious people from joining the Communist Party as long as they can separate their faith from reality and do a materialist analysis (meaning no creationist type idiots). Thats what i think.

              • @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
                cake
                link
                fedilink
                26
                edit-2
                2 years ago

                See, this is the think that also irk me incredibly. Why the fuck always when i write “religion is incompatible with marxism”, something that Marx, Engels and Lenin wrote literally few hundred times each, i immediately got accused of wanting to “supress religion”.

                What do everyone even means by “Supressing religion”? I feel like for some strange reason everyone always pictures priest hunts like anarchists in Spain did… Which was excessive and every ML should tell you the same. Maybe expropriating powerful, antagonistic and reactionary religious intitutions? I mean, those are the people that have such persecution complex that ANY infringing on their priviledges is ALWAYS treated as total war against “religion”. What to do with them?

                Also, what religion is also super important point. Some minor sect which is barely recognizable? Or maybe catholic church with hierarchy, millions of faithful, powerful material support and ties to CIA? Or maybe something like scientology or Falun Gong (just compare what scientology did in USA and Falun Gong did in China).

                China can afford controlling religion because religion, and especially single religion, never had very much sway in China and first few decades of PRC seen rapid increase in atheism. They never had something like catholic church rule of souls or calvin fundies or wahhabists. Religions there just listen because they are weak, as religions always do, this is a constant through history, once they get strong, they start to talk strong too. Always. Also Falun Gong again, do note that when they crossed the line, PRC fell on them like a ton of brick, no hiding behind “religious freedoms” bullshit for the dangerous reactionaries.

                And about religious people joining the party, you missed. While cooperation with religious people is of course possible when necessary, party should not be mass organization of anyone who could crawl in. Party members should be held to higher standards. And “being marxist” is not even the higher standard, it’s absolute minimum. And “being marxist” include materialism. Not fideism. As you can even see from the CPC and afaik every other communist party of past and current AES, atheism is required, though not necessary militant one, and it’s probably not strictly enforced unfortunately (as a Pole i could tell you this was one of the reasons why Poland went to shit and got explosion of fundamentalism). Then again, it’s hard to say if they keep their faith to themselves, and if they prove they CAN really separate it, why not, it’s functionally indiscernable anyways.

                As a Pole i would said to you that church was not even remotely supressed enough. It should be just dissolved with all assets confiscated and all recognition by the law equaled with let’s say chess club.

                Again, for practical work of the party, this: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm

                • @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  14
                  edit-2
                  2 years ago

                  I think what you said about China demonstrates the crux of the matter. The right approach that should be pursued depends very much on the particular circumstances of every revolution, the history and the cultural peculiarities of each individual country, and how much of an impediment or a significant reactionary force that the religious institutions in each case represent. I think the more tolerant Chinese approach was right for China, and the more militantly anti-clerical approach of the Bolsheviks was right for Russia where the church had historically been a very reactionary force and was in bed with all the worst of the old power structures.

                  The role which religion and church serve should be analyzed and studied on a case by case basis. For instance in Cuba it seems that they have managed to overwhelmingly embrace the progressive and socialist side of Christianity. In Libya Gaddafi had done something similar with Islam. In Poland on the other hand i see a situation much more akin to that of pre-1917 Russia unfortunately.

                  I’m going to go ahead and channel Mao here and say the key is to investigate and try to thoroughly understand the situation before formulating a policy position.

                • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  5
                  edit-2
                  2 years ago

                  I mean, i said what i said because in some socialist countries religion was very heavily suppressed imo, in Albania for example or USSR at times. Getting a Bible or a Quran was very hard and so on. I think assets of churches should be expropiated indeed. Churches should become like a kind of mass organization imo, with all its assets owned by the state and the organization also controlled by the state. The church functions as a church but is subordinated to the party and takes orders from it. Again, i think religious people who can think in a materialist way should be allowed to join the party. Ofc there should be high standard requirements, but if they meet them and are believers, i think its ok. I understand why you think this is impossible, since your country is full of religious nutjobs (no offense), but i can guarantee you its true. Here in Spain religion has much less influence in society than in Poland, and youll find many people who consider themselves catholic but dont appear like it at all. They rarely go to church, follow no restrictions associated with catholicism and dont care about what the Pope says about abortion, gays or some other thing. My mom is like that, shes a scientist so she can apply rational thinking, but she still believes. I often ask her why (im atheist), and she says it makes her feel protected during hard times. I think that these type of people, which believe me are very common here in western europe, should be allowed to join the party.

                  I also think you shouldnt discard the progressive potential for religion. I think religion is a tool, so its not bad by itself. Sure religion is very often used by reactionaries, but it can also be used progressively. Again what China did in Tibet, they picked a loyal Panchen Lama, and now he uses his strong influence as a religious leader to promote socialism, friendship with the chinese government and fights the tibetan CIA opposition. Indeed, the beliefs of the mainstream religions (islam, christianity, judaism and buddhism) are often quite compatible with socialism, since they promote friendship with others, helping the poor, solidarity, etc. Hell if Jesus Christ was alive today hed be 100% called a “communist” by the libs. Thats where christian socialism and islamic socialism comes into the picture. In countries with strong religious influence it can be a great way to strenghten socialism i think. Ofc you should be able to control the religious leaders for this to work, otherwise the reactionaries can use the religion against socialism. For example i think in Poland it wouldnt work, because the religious leader is the Pope, and hes in Rome so you cant control him. It could work tho in Russia for example, where you have the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church there. You put someone loyal in charge, control him and use christianity to promote socialism. I think its an option as valid as state atheism. Both options could work in the appropiate material conditions i think. What do you think?

              • @CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                112 years ago

                I find all of this entirely reasonable. But it is still really odd that people try to reconcile religion with communism and even find it to be a virtuous undertaking. To be crass, I drink and smoke to take the edge off, but im not going to rationalize it as healthy or empowering. Those who try to reconcile their religion are the people that honestly should not be in the actual party imo although they are, of course, more than welcome within society. But how can they be trusted with the future of the people if they are busy walking on an identity tight rope in their minds?

                And to be sure religion is frustrating and dubious. Some religions have been thoroughly oppressed and silenced by colonizers, so I try to be as accommodating to this fact as possible. My biggest gripe are the Christians quite frankly.

              • @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
                cake
                link
                fedilink
                82 years ago

                I remember a post on r/GenZedong where the comments called all people advocating for a state athiest / secular government as reddit fedora bros lmfao.

                Yeah i was there too, it was painful to read. There was also one guy in other thread who said that only religious person can be truly marxist…

                These people should interact with the muslims in my country who after any critical question always deflect and tell to listen to the muftis and imams because they know better.

                But Hitchens singled out islam in his bourgeoisie atheism, this means automatically entire atheism bad and entire islam authomatically good. I told them about class characteristic of atheism and differences between bourgeoisie and marxism atheism, but at this point it became obvious they are just fideists using bourgeoisie atheism as excuse to attack not the bourgeoisie part, but entire atheism.

            • Yeah it confused me as well. My personal religious crisis is what enabled me to become any kind of marxist. So Im always curious how people hang on to religion while calling themselves marxists.

  • @lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    302 years ago

    There is nothing that will stop fascism from taking over the West and it’s a tragedy for all the minorities who will be persecuted because of the sheer stupidity of the left.

    Sometimes I just think that in its globality, the West is just “the bourgeoise of the world” because everyone is so willfully ignorant of the ignominy of the system the benefit from

  • @i_must_destroy@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    292 years ago

    Even ones that claim to be ML are usually politically/historically illiterate. They tend to dismiss all AES as ‘not actually socialist’, I think largely due to ignorance and intellectual laziness. Probably some cowardice as well, since then you don’t have ti defend them against western propaganda.

  • @kamraten@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    242 years ago

    “Leftists” in my country are just a bunch of idealistic revisionists. Their so called “leftist” stance are simply reduced to issues of environmental/identity politics. They couldn’t care less about the global south or supporting AES. They are too comfortable leeching off the imperial core’s neocolonialism.

    • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      17
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Same here in Spain. A lot of talking about “we must leave NATO and the EU” and “America bad” but then when push comes to shove, like now with the Ukraine War, they all rally behind NATO and support the NATO narrative. The Podemos motherfuckers (which includes the Communist Party, yes its that revisionist, eurocommunism killed it) literally did a standing ovation for Zelenski the piece of shit nazi. We are sending millions of euros in weapons to neonazis, but its ok because russia man bad. Oh whats that, you need welfare to not starve? Sorry, no money left for that. Fucking social fascists. Where are you from?

      • @kamraten@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        172 years ago

        Finland my fellow comrade. I knew it was coming that Finland were applying to join NATO, but when the announcement came today, the anxiety still hit hard.

        The pro-NATO propaganda here have been relentless these past few months and there have been no counter-arguments to NATO in the media, not even from public service. At least I read a letter in one of the newspapers today from the Finnish Peace Union (umbrella org for multiple peace orgs), where the writer heavily criticized the NATO decision and that she had heavily lost trust in public service after all this propaganda.

        • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          122 years ago

          Oh shit. Yeah thats scary man. That bastard (your prime minister) wont even do a referendum. Why let the people decide something that could start a world war right? Peak western democracy. Yeah Finland left is fucked. The based Communist Party is very weak, thanks to the revisionist eurocommunist bastards that destroyed the original one. Honestly i have the feeling that in 1991, when the USSR was gone, Finland returned to pre 1945 fascism and anticommunism. From what ive heard after 1991 historical revisionism, such as that evil USSR attacked Finland for no reason in 1939 and that akchually Finland wasnt nazi at all in WW2, has been promoted by the state and is now mainstream. And now they wanna join NATO too, creating an existential threat for Russia. With nuclear missiles in Finland, the US could strike Moscow and Leningrad in minutes. Our political leaders are so evil, they wanna destroy us all. Honestly with this development Russia would be well in its right to start an immediate special military operation in Finland to create a protective buffer zone or even overthrow the government, tho i hope they dont ofc. Idk what do you think comrade?

          • @kamraten@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            72 years ago

            NATO even has a requirement that that majority of the population of the applicant should support the decision to join, yet there is no referendum, perhaps this fast-track ratification is what Biden and president Niinistö discussed in Washington in the very early days of the Ukraine conflict? I genuinely would not blame Russia if they were to escalate any action with Finland, as you said, this situation is similar to the background to the Winter War. Finland has had a quite friendly relationship with both the Soviet Union and later on Russia post-WW2 (frequent dialogue with Putin and our presidents, we hosted the Trump and Putin meeting etc) and that is now being thrown away for solely strengthening the Western hegemony. Lenin wrote over 100 years ago that even within the working class movements in what he called “United States of Europe”, there are opportunists that are working towards strengthening Westerm imperialism, and that is exactly what I have experienced in Finland as well. The Left Alliance who said in 2019 during the parliamentary elections that they would not be able to sit in a coalition government if the nation was to join NATO, has now done a complete 180, in the most revisionist manner. Very disappointing, considering the history of this party, that was split from the Communist Party of Finland because the latter was “anti-Stalinist” and anti-Soviet.

            Let’s hope that there is no military escalation, but if push comes to shove, I might try to emigrate to Vietnam since I still have citizenship (thanks mom!) there even though I am born and raised in Finland.

            • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
              link
              fedilink
              42 years ago

              You are part vietnamese? BASED! Wait, isnt there in Finland a based communist party tho? The one formed in 1994, which was the prosoviet faction of the original one that became revisionist eurocommunist and antisoviet. Ive heard there is one tho its very weak. Indeed, european “left” are total traitors, they support war with Russia now. I hope there is no escalation over there but there very well may be. Stay safe Comrade!

        • @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
          link
          fedilink
          12
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          I think Finland needs to think very hard about allowing NATO to place any kind of weapons systems on their soil and remember what happened when Finland in 1939 refused to take the Soviet concerns seriously about the border being too close to Leningrad considering the Finnish alliance with Nazi Germany. Finland back then was being egged on by the British to adopt the most recalcitrant and stubborn position possible and refuse to negotiate with Stalin or even acknowledge the security concerns were valid. Present day Finland should hope that Putin is as lenient as Stalin was when he let them keep their independence after what the Finns did, or i foresee a world of hurt…

  • Amicese
    link
    22
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    deleted by creator

  • @CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    182 years ago

    I say it all the time but

    The left is merely the left side of colonial discourse; thus, it is not only incapable of challenging imperialism, but is also an instrumental part of the development processes of imperialism. This is as evident today as it was in 1850.

    This is why I am comfortable placing Marxism and anti-imperialism into its own scientific socialist discourse that has strategic goals that are irreconcilable with “the left.”

    At university I was taught a co-opted, dogmatic, and class reductionist version of Marxism. In the next week I was taught how liberals co-opted Marxism. If a Marxism is part of the left, then it is definitively a failure because then it is only reduced to a fringe part of liberal and colonial discourses by academics and also bourgeoisie politicians and institutions.

    I say this because I think it helps me make sense of the world. It is such a relief to not have the need to gatekeep the left to keep it pure when you can see it as a working part of imperial discourse. The left is literally a huge working part of the problem. Hopefully it is not overly pedantic.

  • @ChasingGlowies@lemmygrad.ml
    link
    fedilink
    162 years ago

    You will find shitlibs in every single mainstream “hard left” (according to their self-perception, not to reality) western party.

    Also Europeans in particular seem to have a gigantic blind spot when it concerns the vileness of their post-WWII imperialist acts. It’s likely you won’t even get them to admit wrongdoing in the way they treated Greece after its default. Americans at least are relatively likely to acknowledge they’ve been douchebags to many of the countries they invaded.

  • DankZedong
    link
    fedilink
    142 years ago

    Very few proper left parties in the west. A lot of them identify as left just because they see not-white people as sort of human and don’t want to completely fuck up the climate. You’d have to actually look for workers’ rights conditions or anti-capitalist statements in their party ideologies.

  • At the risk of being banned for some sort of -phobia, I have to say that western left movement was fucked the moment euroleft minority activism (tifoil on: fucking CIA-leashed trotskyists tinfoil:off) took over, even if it wasn’t hijacked by libshits. Look at the results - it fractures the working class, and it can’t fight for it’s rights if it’s not united (and problems of minorities are either caused or severely exacerbated by the same old K anyway), after it is fractured certain groups are radicalized the wrong way and you get misandrists, “reverse” racists (just plain old racists) and shit like that and, it’s most ridiculous manifestations give great material for propaganda, because all the right have to do is point and say “Them screeching weirdos over there are marxists, look some of them even say that, do you want to be like them?”, shove horseshoe down people’s throats, that route.

    • @SaddamHussein24@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      11
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Uhhh no? Identity politics has nothing to do with this. The problem here is western exceptionalism, the belief that “the west”, meaning the US empire, has the right to be the world police and that its political system is the role model to follow. Thats the origin of eurocommunism, which is what killed the western left. The idea that “we must have a democratic communism, because soviet, chinese and third world communism is authoritarian and undemocratic, while western democracies arent” is what killed the western left. The 3 strongest communist parties in Western Europe, the Italian, French and Spanish Communist Parties, were destroyed by eurocommunism. Thats the problem here, western chauvinism and propaganda. Identity politics, no matter what you think of it, has nothing to do with this and is totally irrelevant to my post.

      • I disagree. The left and the right are effectively a struggle and unity of opposing colonial civil religions and the dialectic is held together by identity politics. Being a leftist itself is a fetishized, heavily moralized, and comodified identity (just as being right wing is), this is why people virtue signal how “left” (or right) they are to build legitimacy and manipulate the market of social esteem to either increase/maintain the value of brands or to build a profile. (Which is precisely how finance capital acts.) Class is effectively reduced to just another identity instead of a complex social relationship between humans, land, production, and wealth. People look within themselves for their identity, which they then use to build a politic. Liberalism trains us not to look at the material world or our surroundings in motion with us, but at our essence or at our profile—an essence defined within colonial superstructures. Both major civil religions champion the values of the Working Class ™ while currating the Working Class ™ identity itself.

        These moralized and comodified identities have build in triggers that are used to cultivate war mongering and chuavanism. It is so easy to manipulate people into supporting puppets of the empire because bourgeoisie morality has been baked into virtually every available identity via civil religion and its relationship with identity politics.

        Yes the erroneous fixation on liberal “democracy” is consequencial, but why was this so effective and attractive? The answer is the liberal desire to cynically include and represent “all” (currated identies) while centering the individual, and to render class either superfluous or gutted of meaning so that bourgeoisie sensibilities can easily saturate everything. Liberalism moves to turn all notions of being into weapons for the ruling class.