• @angarabebesi
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    92 years ago

    I’m suprised that American liberals went from being anti-war in the 2000s to full-on warmongering in the 2010s and 2020s.

  • xenith
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    12 years ago

    Let’s assume that the blog you linked is totally accurate. So… it’s cool for Russia to invade them? Kill civilians? Kidnap and displace people?

    If you were a Ukrainian that has nothing to do with Nazis or corruption would you then welcome your Russian “liberators” because of the things mentioned in your linked blog? Would you be cool with friends and family members dying or (often even worse) going missing due to the invasion because shady money was donated to elected officials?

    Which country is free of fascists and corrupt money in the highest levels of government? Since the answer is none, should they be invaded too?

    And since you seem pretty concerned with dirty money from rotten sources I’m sure you spend at least an equal amount of time reading and reposting info about widespread corruption throughout the Russian government and oligarchs, right?

    Maybe all takes on Ukraine are skewed in the msm but I think the main takeaway is fuck Putin for invading a country and killing innocent people under pretenses that change every few days. If THAT’S the take you have a problem with then please post a more direct argument instead of this proxy blog.

    No shady government funding justifies the price that innocent, regular people are paying in Ukraine.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      22 years ago

      Why did you feel the need to write this long straw man argument given that nobody is trying to justify Russia invading here?

      • xenith
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        -52 years ago

        Cool, so you agree that Russia is doing some pretty horrific stuff and definitely should not have invaded a country of largely peaceful people?

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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          72 years ago

          I completely agree that Russian invasion wasn’t justified. However, that has no bearing on the fact that Ukraine has a corrupt regime that has strong ties to nazis. Both things can be true at the same time.

          • xenith
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            2 years ago

            Sure, both things can be true. But why did you feel it needed to be said?

            Everyone: “Did you hear that Sara was raped? Its absolutely terrible.”

            You: “Did you know that Sara cheated on most of her exams in college and was jailed after being caught for shoplifting 4 different times? What’s wrong? Both things can be true.”

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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              62 years ago

              I feel the need for it to be said because western view of Ukraine is becoming increasingly divorced from reality with western media painting it as some bastion of democracy. The fact that you don’t think it’s valuable to understand the situation in Ukraine is quite telling.

              • xenith
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                2 years ago

                You’re right, it wasn’t the perfect article for my response. I was more responding to the general sentiment of you and the posts you make.

                You can use the term “straw man” a hundred more times but it would be a very apparent lie for you to claim that you’re as critical of China or Russia as you are of western nations. You’re not fair because you’ve assumed that there’s 2 sides and that you picked the right one. Your black and white view of “good guys” and “bad guys” is no different than the political nonsense that’s on any msm channel or website. You think you’ve picked the right side just like everyone else has.

                And before you remind me that I can’t draw that conclusion from this one article you posted, remember that everyone can see your prolific post and comment history.

                So you have an opinion, so what. My whole point is that you and the the other China/Russia fanboys don’t hold them to the same standard as you do the West and that undermines the values you’re trying to share. You can be on the left and still think that the Chinese government treatment of Uyghurs are human rights violations. You can be critical of money in Russia that supposed to help people getting funneled to billionaires.

                You said I’m ignoring the good like you claim that China is environmentally friendly but I’m not; that’s you projecting. Good things and bad things stand on their own. Hell, Trump did some things that had positive results. If I cite them and and don’t mention anything else was he an amazing president?

                That’s how I view you. You picked your team and you you feel good about it because you see the other team as the capitalist hellholes but you ignore the terrible things that your team does.

                There’s no teams, there’s just people. Treating them poorly isn’t exclusive to the West.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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                  22 years ago

                  There is no point being critical of Russia or China because that’s what the entirety of western mainstream media is doing. Every possible angle of criticizing Russia and China has been covered to death. I’ve picked the side that gets no coverage in the west and provides a perspective that most people in the west lack.

                  Seems to me that you’re the one with the black and white view here getting upset that somebody is providing a more nuanced perspective than Russia bad.

                  If you live in the west your primary job is to hold your own government accountable instead of perseverating over what Russia or China might be doing. While Russia ultimately pulled the trigger, western nations played a huge part in creating the conditions that resulted in this conflict while western left has been enabling this to happen.

                  You said I’m ignoring the good like you claim that China is environmentally friendly but I’m not; that’s you projecting.

                  I’m not projecting anything here, you literally wrote the following in the comment I was replying to:

                  That greed and mental illnesses that drive capitalism are destroying the planet but Russia and China aren’t the good guys and they’re not saving us either.

                  You keep saying there are no teams and there are just people, yet you clearly have a team and apparently countries you don’t like are fascist. Maybe go touch grass sometime there bud.

            • AgreeableLandscape☭
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              2 years ago

              Logical fallacy. Countries and people are different things bud. Neither are the magnitudes of the misdeeds involved, or whether they’re ongoing or in the past.

      • xenith
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        -52 years ago

        To more directly answer you question, I felt the need to write that because I often see from the most vocal “leftists” such as yourself an unwavering support of anything that Russia or China does because they say they’re communist nations. This is despite well-documented atrocities and corruption performed by these same noble governments.

        It’s the same logic that brings many people to call themselves Democrats: “The Republicans are just awful so I’m going to support Democrat candidates no matter how reprehensible they themselves are.”

        In this case, it’s that since capitalism and the governmenta that support it are truly reprehensible (true) then countries that say they aren’t capitalist are good (false). If that logic tracked then the Nazis were the good guys since they were the National Socialist Party.

        That greed and mental illnesses that drive capitalism are destroying the planet but Russia and China aren’t the good guys and they’re not saving us either. I don’t see any good guys; I see different shades of bad guys and I’m tired of this notion that the enemies of the US need to be supported. They’re their own flavors of fascist dictatorships where admitting the wrong idea can get you arrested or permanently disappeared.

        It’s so disheartening to see people who obviously view themselves as “enlightened leftists” pushing the other fascists’ propaganda. It feels trendy to throw support to the enemies of the US but “the left” shouldn’t and doesn’t mean supporting governments who say they’re communists but blatently violate human rights.

        tldr: fuck the US government and fuck capitalism, and also fuck the Russian and Chinese governments

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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          92 years ago

          Once again, your comment is full of straw man arguments that have nothing to do with anything I’ve ever said here. Nobody is defending Russia here. I think it’s odd that any discussion Ukrainian regime is immediately dismissed by deflecting towards Russia. It’s also big news to me that Russia is a communist nation, last I checked that hasn’t been the case for at least three decades now.

          Meanwhile, China is literally doing the most to stop climate change out of any industrialized nation. Seems like you’re all too happy to ignore facts that don’t fit with your ideology. Calling China fascist shows deep and profound misunderstanding of what fascism is.

        • @stopit
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          2 years ago

          Does Russia say it is a communist nation? This confused me.

          Also, further down in your post, it seems you are relating fascism with communism…they’re completely opposite ideologies…is my reading comprehension bad right now? I am tired, it is an honest question.

          • comfy
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            42 years ago

            They’re not relating the two, they’re criticizing the idea of an ‘all enemies of capitalism are good’ view. That said, socialists usually acknowledge that Nazism isn’t actually against capitalism, it just seeks to control it, but the analogy is still clear.

        • comfy
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          2 years ago

          that Russia or China does because they say they’re communist nations

          I hope you’re aware that Russia is absolutely not communist, socialist or run by people who call it either, for a few decades now.

          Also, it’s strange to imply that “National Socialism” wasn’t just regulated capitalism since the Strassers got purged.

          But apart from that, yes. It’s worrying to see some of the so-called leftists react against horrible liberal/NATO takes by supporting Russia instead. The enemy of our enemy is not our friend here.

  • @TheAnonymouseJoker
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    02 years ago

    Same 3 people roam around silently downvoting such posts here. Pitiful.